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LDS Priesthoods Not Found In The Writings Of The Early Church Fathers

BigDaddy4

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Yes, I agree it is better to baptize here on the earth when it is possible, but not by pouring. It must be done to symbolize the death of Jesus Christ.
If your church really wants to "restore" the church to what Jesus did, then you should be baptizing in the Jordan River. No alternatives should be acceptable for you.
 
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He is the way

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If your church really wants to "restore" the church to what Jesus did, then you should be baptizing in the Jordan River. No alternatives should be acceptable for you.
And it must be in the exact spot where Jesus was baptized, but seriously what does buried mean to you?:

(New Testament | Romans 6:3 - 5)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Buried is not like poured on or sprinkled.

Bury

verb (used with object), bur·ied, bur·y·ing.
to put in the ground and cover with earth:The pirates buried the chest on the island.
to put (a corpse) in the ground or a vault, or into the sea, often with ceremony:They buried the sailor with full military honors.
to plunge in deeply; cause to sink in:to bury an arrow in a target.
to cover in order to conceal from sight:She buried the card in the deck.
to immerse...
 
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Peter1000

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If your church really wants to "restore" the church to what Jesus did, then you should be baptizing in the Jordan River. No alternatives should be acceptable for you.
We are restoring the doctrine of true baptism. If they apostles got to Rome and in order to get baptized, you had to make a trek back to Jerusalem and then out to the Jordan River to be baptized exactly like Jesus was, then we would do it.
Fortunately for us, the apostles and therefore Jesus did not require such a trek. But they did require full immersion all the way through the bible. Which apparently you can take or leave depending on which Christian church you belong to. Another evidence for the apostasy.
 
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Peter1000

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Though they have elements of truth in them they do not have valid sacraments other than baptism. They DO have more truth than the LDS does, by an order of magnitude at least. But no, they are not the Church that Jesus founded.

I'd rather be Protestant than Mormon as I approach the last judgment however. Most of the Protestants manage to preach Jesus, to teach their members to pray, and they baptize them validly. We are working with many varied kinds of Protestants on unity. There is no unity possible with the LDS or the other Mormons as there is a whole different deity.
Protestants preach Jesus - good.
The Church of Jesus Christ preachs Jesus - good.
The birth of Jesus, his life, his death, his resurrection is taught the same by both. There is a little difference in Jesus's pre-earth life, but not much. For instance we teach that he was in existence from the beginning, and he was the creator of all that is in the earth, above the earth and below the earth. That he was the God of the Israelites. etc. So not a whole lot of difference.
And it would be the same amount of differences if you were to compare Protestants with Catholic or Orthodox. It is these minor differences that cause one people to start their own church, hence hundreds of Christian churches.


Protestants teach their people to pray. Good.
The Church of Jesus Christ teaches their people to pray too. Pretty standard.

The Protestants baptize their people validly.
The Church of Jesus Christ baptize their people validly too.
The biblical test for validity is:
1) That their people were baptized by one holding the keys to baptize. That is why the apostles did most of the baptizing in the bible.
2) That their people repented of their sins.
3) They are also baptized in the name of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
4) Then they are baptized by full immersion for the remission of sins.
5) Then they can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(see Acts 2:37-38)

So you see, really, the protestants and us are not that far apart.
 
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BigDaddy4

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And it must be in the exact spot where Jesus was baptized, but seriously what does buried mean to you?:

(New Testament | Romans 6:3 - 5)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Buried is not like poured on or sprinkled.

Bury

verb (used with object), bur·ied, bur·y·ing.
to put in the ground and cover with earth:The pirates buried the chest on the island.
to put (a corpse) in the ground or a vault, or into the sea, often with ceremony:They buried the sailor with full military honors.
to plunge in deeply; cause to sink in:to bury an arrow in a target.
to cover in order to conceal from sight:She buried the card in the deck.
to immerse...
Ever heard of a figure of speech?
 
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BigDaddy4

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We are restoring the doctrine of true baptism. If they apostles got to Rome and in order to get baptized, you had to make a trek back to Jerusalem and then out to the Jordan River to be baptized exactly like Jesus was, then we would do it.
Fortunately for us, the apostles and therefore Jesus did not require such a trek. But they did require full immersion all the way through the bible. Which apparently you can take or leave depending on which Christian church you belong to. Another evidence for the apostasy.
You have no clue what "true baptism" means. It's just something you/your church has made up. You or one of your fellow mormons were asked where the requirement for full immersion is found "all the way through the bible". Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a response. Another point you are clearly wrong on. But then, you have demonstrated that you don't really have any credibility for knowing or understanding Christian history.
 
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He is the way

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Ever heard of a figure of speech?
Sure I have, and everyone can decide for themselves what that scripture means and how baptism should be done. You already know what I believe.
 
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dzheremi

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If they apostles got to Rome and in order to get baptized, you had to make a trek back to Jerusalem and then out to the Jordan River to be baptized exactly like Jesus was, then we would do it.

Plenty of Christians do. Though generally the banks of the Jordan are where the Christians of various communities in Israel celebrate the Epiphany (so a lot of videos you can find allegedly showing Christian 'baptism' there are really pilgrims purifying themselves as part of Epiphany), it is possible to be baptized there. I just searched YouTube and couldn't find any video evidence of Mormons being baptized there, which tells me that the Mormon community in Israel is probably too small to form a cohesive cultural group that might claim their own spot along the banks of the river, as the Greeks, Syrians, Copts, and Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo do. (The Mormon Newsroom reports 306 Mormons in all of Israel.)

But they did require full immersion all the way through the bible.

It seems both sides in this conversation are disregarding the earliest evidence we have of the Christian tradition (the Didache), which presents baptism by immersion as normative, but provides alternatives when necessary:

Now concerning baptism, baptize thus: Having first taught all these things, baptize ye into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water.
And if thou hast not living water, baptize into other water; and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm (water). But if thou hast neither, pour [water] thrice upon the head in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.​

It should not so scandalous or so difficult to imagine a scenario in which it might be necessary to work with whatever little water is available, seeing as how the faith grew in some often very parched lands in the Holy Land, the Levant, Egypt, etc. (All of which of course have their famous rivers and green areas, but not everyone is blessed to live in them.)

Which apparently you can take or leave depending on which Christian church you belong to. Another evidence for the apostasy.

If having differing practices concerning a matter in which there were differing practices as far back as the first century is 'apostasy' to you, then it is no wonder that you refuse to deal with the reality of Christian history which testifies to much more variation than on this matter alone, all while the people of the different churches all held to the same faith.

That's the problem with the way that you are looking at things: you think that having a uniformity of practice is a proof of some kind of 'restoration' of how things were originally done, even if you don't do them that way yourselves (no historical Christian anywhere was ever baptized in the name of Mormonism's polytheistic trinity), and even though the ancient Church itself testifies to the acceptance of a limited range of differences in practice so long as everyone professed the same faith.

And you can't profess the same faith as any historical stream of Christianity, because Mormonism isn't a part of any of them. No amount of immersing people will wash away that fact.
 
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Peter1000

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This is just flatly incorrect. If it were so, then the Didache, the earliest known Church orders manual, written c. 95 AD (well within your 120 AD cut-off line), wouldn't contain passages like the following: "Therefore appoint for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men who are meek and not lovers of money, who are true and approved, because they also perform the service of prophets and teachers to you. Do not despise them, for they are worthy of honor alongside prophets and teachers."

Since it was written c. 95 AD, the only one of the original apostles who was still alive at the time was St. John, so who is the "yourselves" written to there? There's only one apostle left, so it can't be to him (not to mention that the longer name by which the Didache is known is "The Teaching Of The Lord To The Nations Through The Twelve Apostles", indicating that it is teaching that came through them, not to them), so it must be to some other group of Christians who would be involved in appointing bishops.

By this time, Alexandria was on its second or third bishop (depending on whether you follow Eusebius and others in counting as the first bishop of a see the first man ordained to serve there, or the later tradition of marking the founding apostle of an apostolic see to be its first bishop; HH St. Anianos had succeeded St. Mark in 62 AD, and HH St. Milieus/Avilius succeeded him in 82 AD, and would remain in the chair until September of 95), Antioch on its second/third (HH St. Ignatius, r. 70-108), Rome on its third/fourth (HH St. Clement, r. 88-99), Armenia on its fifth/sixth (HH St. Mushe, r. 93-123), Mesopotamia/Persia/India on its second/third (HH Mar Mari, r. 87-121), etc.

So how can it be that things work as you claim they do when all of this was in place before rules were even set down for the selection of bishops, and when they were they look nothing like what you're claiming? The Didache presupposes that bishops will continue to be ordained after the death of the original apostles, precisely because that's what had already been happening since before it was written.

Your idea of how the early Church function is contradicted by the early Church itself (as usual), even well within the period you are claiming worked as you say it was supposed to (so presumably before the 'Great Apostasy' took hold and changed the way bishops were chosen).

Explain this, please. Again, this is the earliest documentary evidence we have concerning how the Church was organized, from well before the hypothesized 'Great Apostasy', according to your reckoning of it.
I have always maintained that the apostasy started even before the apostles died. By 95, and all but 1 apostle was living, the scriptures tell us that there were men that were rewriting the rules.
We know from this scripture that men were openly defying the apostle John:
3 John 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

So would it be surprising to you that Diotrephes would set aside the apostles and without authority, choose his own bishop, maybe himself, and encourage all other would be bishops in nearby cities to do the same, so he could start building his empire of bishops and cities.

We know by the epistles of Clement of Rome that the Corinthians were throwing their apostle-appointed bishop out, and putting in their own popular bishop.

So these new rules were happening even earlier than 95. Just think what happened by 120 when the apostles were all gone. Whoever wrote the Didache I believe also said it was OK to sprinkle members if there was not enough water to fully baptize them. So not only the rules for ordination were changing, but the doctrines of the church were changing too, even before the death of all the apostles.

Do you deny that the first bishops of the church were ordained by the living apostles? And where in the scriptures do you find the Didache rule of "Therefore appoint for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord"? I believe the Didache is not part of the canon for a reason. The Didache does demonstrate that the church was already changing the rules and changing the doctrine very early on. It demonstrates that the church is starting into the apostasy.
 
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Peter1000

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Peter, you are a corrupter of church history. There is no truth in what you write. May some day you see the error of your ways.
Then so is Ignatius the Kiwi, for it is from his post #367 first paragraph that I received that information.

I just assumed he was correct, knowing the history of the Corinthian church. We all knew they were reprimanded by Clement of Rome, I assumed this was the reason. Ask Ignatius.
 
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dzheremi

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I have always maintained that the apostasy started even before the apostles died.

Quite frankly, this is your problem, not Christianity's. Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ is a victorious deliverer, having nothing to do with Mormonism's incompetent buffoon of a Christ figure who cannot even choose his own apostles properly, nor protect his church. If it weren't for the fact that you stole the name and title (and can sadly rely on the reality that most Christians don't participate in theological discussion like we do here, so they have no reason to assume Mormonism isn't Christian when it says it is), there'd be no reason to ever consider them the same.

By 95, and all but 1 apostle was living, the scriptures tell us that there were men that were rewriting the rule

The Didache does not rewrite any rule -- it establishes it, as regards baptism. That's the entire point of the text. It is the teachings of the apostles given to the nations.

We know from this scripture that men were openly defying the apostle John:
3 John 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

Does the existence of this one guy who is called out by name do anything to alter the requirements for bishops and deacons, or change how baptism is to be performed? (The actual things that the Didache covers)

No. It doesn't. It is entirely irrelevant. Furthermore, if one guy acting like a puffed-up jerk is enough to invalidate Christianity forever, then Mormonism has invalidated itself since day one...or whatever day it was within the founding of his religion that JS was caught with his servant girl in the barn and tried to subsequently play it off as part of some revelation or other. But note that we don't operate as you do, so I'm not making that claim (only showing how silly it is for Mormons of all people to make it).

So would it be surprising to you that Diotrephes would set aside the apostles and without authority, choose his own bishop, maybe himself, and encourage all other would be bishops in nearby cities to do the same, so he could start building his empire of bishops and cities.

Not at all, because I know Christian history and this is what people do. That's also how I know it doesn't prove some sort of worldwide, irrecoverable apostasy that needs JS' or anyone else's help to fix.

We know by the epistles of Clement of Rome that the Corinthians were throwing their apostle-appointed bishop out, and putting in their own popular bishop.

Here's an idea, if you're ever done perverting Christian history for your purposes long enough to consider it: the fact that HH St. Clement wrote to the Corinthians about this showed that he recognized that it was a problem, and the fact that he recognized that it was a problem (which it was, though it should be pointed out that a schism within a particular church does not a worldwide apostasy make) showed that there were still some bishops who were righteous and following the true path of Christ and His apostles, so there couldn't have been a worldwide apostasy. The Church at Rome was fine, as was the Church at Alexandria, at Antioch, at Jerusalem, and so on. HH's letter works against your point just as much as it does for it, unless you for some reason want to paint the saint as being part of the schism that he was clearly not a part of (since this was long, loooong before the Roman ecclesiology would develop to where it is today, where RCs would say that their Pope has the right to interfere in the workings of another local church so as to force them to follow his command).

So these new rules were happening even earlier than 95.

It's not some kind of 'new rule' to write to another church to tell them to get their act together. It has happened throughout history, and always will. Whether it's the Eastern Orthodox telling each other to get their stuff together regarding Ukraine, the Oriental Orthodox looking askance at the situation between the two Orthodox churches of India (which are both in communion with us, but sadly not with each other since the 1970s), the Roman Catholics dealing with several sedevacantist groups, etc. Even the Nestorians, who have been out of communion with everybody else since the aftermath of the Council of Ephesus in 431, have their own schism with the 'Ancient Church of the East' people, who split over some reforms in 1964.

And the same spirit of dissent exists in Mormonism too, although you'd probably like to pretend it doesn't. So why is this evidence of the unraveling of Christianity before 95 AD, while the same thing is not evidence that Mormonism is corrupt?

Just think what happened by 120 when the apostles were all gone.

The bishops they had already ordained decades earlier either continued in their calling or had ordained bishops to follow them who were by then continuing in the same calling. Oh the horror! :rolleyes:

Whoever wrote the Didache I believe also said it was OK to sprinkle members if there was not enough water to fully baptize them.

Which it is. This is commonly done in places like Ethiopia, where water is at a premium since the country still mostly survives on agriculture and inconsistent rains have led to semi-regular famine, particularly in the highlands (where the majority of the population is Christian). All the babies and adults received that way are fully baptized, recognized by all the churches of Oriental Orthodoxy (well, for those who are received into the traditional church of that country, which is the majority of the country's Christians; there are also Roman Catholics and Protestants), even as the standard communion-wide is to receive new Christians by triple immersion.

So not only the rules for ordination were changing, but the doctrines of the church were changing too, even before the death of all the apostles.

Again, no they weren't. You're just flat-out wrong about this, Peter.

Do you deny that the first bishops of the church were ordained by the living apostles?

What? Where is this coming from? Why would I ever deny that? My own Church was founded on the preaching of the apostle of God St. Mark, so of course I do not deny that. That doesn't mean I buy into Mormonism's phony baloney idea of 'apostle' being some kind of inheritable office, which I don't. Not for even one second.

And where in the scriptures do you find the Didache rule of "Therefore appoint for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord"?

Oh don't get all sola scriptura on me when convenient. We both know that this is not the rule in Mormonism, because if it was you literally couldn't be Mormon. That's how much your religion violates the Holy Bible, which we Christians wrote, canonized, preached, and continue to preach, even as your religion calls us false professors of abominable creeds and all manner of similar absolute lunacy.

Get out of here with that.

I believe the Didache is not part of the canon for a reason.

What? Nobody ever said it was part of the canon. It has never been part of the canon.

The Didache does demonstrate that the church was already changing the rules and changing the doctrine very early on. It demonstrates that the church is starting into the apostasy.

I guess it does if you already believe that that happened, but for the rest of us it very much does not. The disinterested person would read it as the earliest example we have of a Church orders text, which is exactly what it is. Your commitment to Mormonism's blatantly false alternate history narrative is causing you to read it in a way that is at variance with literally everyone else on the face of the planet. Again, this is your problem due to your fidelity to Mormonism, not Christianity's problem.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Then so is Ignatius the Kiwi, for it is from his post #367 first paragraph that I received that information.

I just assumed he was correct, knowing the history of the Corinthian church. We all knew they were reprimanded by Clement of Rome, I assumed this was the reason. Ask Ignatius.
Maybe you agreed with him on a small point of church history, maybe not. I'm not going to bother checking. But there is no way any Christian on this thread has agreed with your version of a widespread "Great Apostasy", which is what my comment was addressing.
 
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Peter1000

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Our conversation would then appear to be over. We're merely talking in circles at this point with points I and others have raised being unaddressed. I would simply ask that you think on them in order to try and give more compelling answers in the future. You have no response about what the faithful followers of Christ were supposed to do in the absence of Apostles in the second century. You inveigh against them and their corruption but if God needs to provide the necessary component of an Apostle/rites in order to preserve his Church you cannot blame man for seeking to continue on what they had received.

Could you imagine being a second century Christian with your Mormon mindset. Would you not be devastated? To learn that God had fled, he no longer sent his gifts of grace and the Church community you knew and loved was doomed to failure? One wonders what the Apostles thought they were doing in establishing such a structure built on sand. Rather it was built on a foundation but God let the house slip right of off of it.

You can see what happens to people when God has withdrawn. Look at the people of Israel.

The last God-sent prophet to Israel was about 500bc, Malachi, and he was limited in what he could say and do, because the world was wicked, and Israel was in apostasy. So what did these people do? They put up with their lazy priests and their phony High Priest, who was chosen by foreign kings. By Malachi's time they were rejecting the God of Israel altogether. The temple still existed, but it was corrupted for gain, rather than for spiritual guidance. They had a form of godliness, but did not have the power to do the work of the ministry. So God had to move them over to his alternative plan in order to save them in his kingdom. Sound familiar?

The people of the apostasy after Jesus went through the motions of their religion, but it was not the same religion as when the apostles were alive. It lacked the authority to perfect the saints, and do the work of the ministry, and it did not edify the body of Christ, because of the petty quarrels that the church leaders were drawn into. The people were carried away with every wind of doctrine promulgated by the cunning craftiness of men. (Ephesians 4:12-14)) So there was still much righteousness, and much wickedness, but God had to move this people to his alternative plan for their saving ordinances, since heaven did not recognize the work of the ministry at this time.
 
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Peter1000

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Is dunking an Oreo in milk representative of your baptism for the dead ceremonial dunking?
Oreo and milk must be your favorite. No it is not representative of our baptism for the dead. But I am sure you are aware of that.
 
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Peter1000

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Maybe you agreed with him on a small point of church history, maybe not. I'm not going to bother checking. But there is no way any Christian on this thread has agreed with your version of a widespread "Great Apostasy", which is what my comment was addressing.
I have taught hundreds of Christians the doctrine of the baptism of the dead. Many believed and were baptized into our church. When I have an opportunity to explain it well, it makes so much sense to Christians, that they are surprized their church didn't do that. And the reason they eventually are baptized and become members of the Church of Jesus Christ, is because they find that we are the only church that does.

They fulfill their wonderment about the work for the dead, when they actually go to the temple and participate actively. Their hearts are turned to their departed fathers and bring up names of ancestors whose names have not been spoken outloud for centuries, and give them the chance to be saved into the kingdom of God. They are elated and the spiritual experience is dramatic, and essential to your spiritual growth we all desire.
 
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BigDaddy4

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I have taught hundreds of Christians the doctrine of the baptism of the dead. Many believed and were baptized into our church. When I have an opportunity to explain it well, it makes so much sense to Christians, that they are surprized their church didn't do that. And the reason they eventually are baptized and become members of the Church of Jesus Christ, is because they find that we are the only church that does.

They fulfill their wonderment about the work for the dead, when they actually go to the temple and participate actively. Their hearts are turned to their departed fathers and bring up names of ancestors whose names have not been spoken outloud for centuries, and give them the chance to be saved into the kingdom of God. They are elated and the spiritual experience is dramatic, and essential to your spiritual growth we all desire.
Then you are one of the false teachers the Bible warns about. Good luck with that.
 
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He is the way

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Then you are one of the false teachers the Bible warns about. Good luck with that.
No he is not a false teacher, God is a just God, a God who makes provision for each of us to return to Him. Only an unfair God would not allow everyone the opportunity to return to Him. He gives us that choice.
 
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