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Featured LDS Priesthoods Not Found In The Writings Of The Early Church Fathers

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Gifts From Above, Nov 7, 2020.

  1. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    The apostle John is still alive, but not necessarily on the earth. Jesus is also still alive although He has a resurrected spiritual glorified body, and John has a translated body. How much of his time John spends on earth is not clear. It is the same with other translated beings such as Elijah. I believe much of their work is incognito. The Bible is clear about what offices the Lord has given to those who lead His church:

    (New Testament | Ephesians 4:10 - 13)

    10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    This is how The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is organized. This is also the goal of the church.
     
  2. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Huh?
     
  3. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Since God exists matter has also always existed.
     
  4. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    "The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably..."
    Presbuteros Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - King James Version

    "
    Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 3)

    A refutation of the heretics, from the fact that, in the various Churches, a perpetual succession of bishops was kept up.
    1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to the perfect apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity." CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.3 (St. Irenaeus)

    BIBLE SEARCH RESULTS
    1. Acts 1:20
      For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
      In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2. Philippians 1:1
      Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
      In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    3. 1 Timothy 3:1
      This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
      In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    4. 1 Timothy 3:2
      A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
      In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    5. Titus 1:7
      For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
      In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    6. 1 Peter 2:25
      For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    "Information as to his life is scarce, and in some measure inexact. He was born in Proconsular Asia, or at least in some province bordering thereon, in the first half of the second century; the exact date is controverted, between the years 115 and 125, according to some, or, according to others, between 130 and 142. It is certain that, while still very young, Irenaeus had seen and heard the holy Bishop Polycarp (d. 155) at Smyrna."
    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Irenaeus

    Remember, Bishop and Elder are used interchanged in the NT.
     
  5. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Maccabees ( 134 BCE down to 161 BCE) is an authoritative historical source that demonstrates that those who knew both the OT and Hebrew clearly understood that Jewish People understood both as teaching that God created everything out of nothing. If I have to choose between those who are closer to the sources and knew the Hebrew Language vs thinking on philosophy of Aristotle.

    "The ancient philosopher Aristotle argued that the world must have existed from eternity in his Physics as follows. In Book I, he argues that everything that comes into existence does so from a substratum. Therefore, if the underlying matter of the universe came into existence, it would come into existence from a substratum. But the nature of matter is precisely to be the substratum from which other things arise. Consequently, the underlying matter of the universe could have come into existence only from an already existing matter exactly like itself; to assume that the underlying matter of the universe came into existence would require assuming that an underlying matter already existed. As this assumption is self-contradictory, Aristotle argued, matter must be eternal." (Physics I, 7 Aristotle in Physics VIII, 1, 251a, 8-20) 384–322 BC

    Eternity of the world - Wikipedia

    "The "Ethics" of Aristotle occupies an important place in the history of Jewish literature, although attention was directed to it comparatively late. The Jews possessed in their own religious writings an abundance of practical rules which rendered Aristotle's "Ethics" superfluous. Only when his system came to be studied as a whole was any attention paid to the "Ethics." The "Nicomachean Ethics," which alone of all Aristotle's ethical writings was known to the Middle Ages, was translated into Hebrew from a Latin version in the beginning of the fifteenth century. "
    ARISTOTLE IN JEWISH LITERATURE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    " For Maimonides, and his successor Levi ben Gerson, Aristotle is throughout an undeniable authority. His deliverances are to them generally as unassailable and as indisputable as those of the Bible itself. This attitude sometimes led these two devoted Aristotelians to misinterpret certain Scriptural passages that seemed to conflict with the Stagirite. With all Maimonides' magnificent attempts to harmonize Judaism and Aristotelianism, and with all the achievements in this direction by Ben Gerson, they could not fail to awaken in discerning minds the conviction that all such endeavors started from vain premises. Levi ben Gerson's effort to reconcile the "creatio ex nihilo" (the creation out of nothing) with Aristotle's view, by claiming boldly the eternity of the Original Matter, only served, like other compromises, to expose the impossibilities of the undertaking."
    ARISTOTLE IN JEWISH LITERATURE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
     
  6. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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  7. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    3 Nephi 28


    Nine of the twelve disciples desire and are promised an inheritance in Christ’s kingdom when they die—The Three Nephites desire and are given power over death so as to remain on the earth until Jesus comes again—They are translated and see things not lawful to utter, and they are now ministering among men. About A.D. 34–35.

    1 And it came to pass when Jesus had said these words, he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye adesire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?

    2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.

    3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are aseventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my bkingdom; and with me ye shall find crest.

    4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

    5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

    6 And he said unto them: Behold, I aknow your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

    7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall anever taste of bdeath; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the cpowers of heaven.

    8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from amortality to bimmortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

    9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the asins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bbring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

    10 And for this cause ye shall have afulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are bone;

    11 And the aHoly Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and the Father giveth the Holy Ghost unto the children of men, because of me.

    12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he touched every one of them with his finger save it were the athree who were to tarry, and then he departed.

    13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were acaught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.

    14 And it was aforbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them bpower that they could utter the things which they saw and heard;

    15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a atransfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.

    16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.

    17 And now, whether they were mortal or immortal, from the day of their transfiguration, I know not;

    18 But this much I know, according to the record which hath been given—they did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.

    19 And they were cast into prison by them who did not belong to the church. And the aprisons could not hold them, for they were rent in twain.

    20 And they were cast down into the earth; but they did smite the earth with the word of God, insomuch that by his apower they were delivered out of the depths of the earth; and therefore they could not dig pits sufficient to hold them.

    21 And thrice they were cast into a afurnace and received no harm.

    22 And twice were they cast into a aden of wild beasts; and behold they did play with the beasts as a child with a suckling lamb, and received no harm.

    23 And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the agospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of bthat generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus.

    24 And now I, aMormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.

    25 Behold, I was about to write the anames of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

    26 But behold, aI have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.

    27 And behold they will be aamong the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

    28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.

    29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the ascattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.

    30 And they are as the aangels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.

    31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the agreat and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;

    32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a agreat and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.

    33 And if ye had aall the scriptures which give an account of all the marvelous works of Christ, ye would, according to the words of Christ, know that these things must surely come.

    34 And wo be unto him that will anot hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and bsent among them; for whoso creceiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

    35 And it would be better for them if they had not been born. For do ye suppose that ye can get rid of the justice of an aoffended God, who hath been btrampled under feet of men, that thereby salvation might come?

    36 And now behold, as I spake concerning those whom the Lord hath chosen, yea, even three who were caught up into the heavens, that I knew not whether they were acleansed from bmortality to immortality—

    37 But behold, since I wrote, I have inquired of the Lord, and he hath made it manifest unto me that there must needs be a change wrought upon their bodies, or else it needs be that they must taste of death;

    38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a achange wrought upon their bodies, that they might not bsuffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world.

    39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not atempt them; and they were bsanctified in the flesh, that they were choly, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

    40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.
     
  8. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    I believe that translated beings can go wherever they want to go. Elias (Elijah) went to heaven, but later visited the earth:

    (Old Testament | 2 Kings 2:11)

    11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.


    (New Testament | Matthew 17:1 - 4)

    1 AND after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

    Is that what you are posting about?
     
  9. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    From the texts you quote Elias(Elijah) was first taken from earth and then sent to earth, not on their own. You are also, correct that they are the same person. The Story about Moses ...

    "
    Not over Moses’ Dead Body: Jude 9, 22-24 and the Assumption of Moses in their Early Jewish Context
    .entryAuthor" data-author-container-selector=".NLM_contrib-group">
    Ryan E. Stokes[​IMG]
    https://doi.org/10.1177/0142064X17740003
    Article information

    [​IMG]
    Abstract
    Jude 9 refers to a story in which the archangel Michael disputes with the devil about the body of Moses. Although the story cited by Jude has not been preserved, the literature of early Judaism contains several traditions that can inform one’s understanding of Jude’s source. This article explores these traditions, especially early Jewish interpretations of Zech. 3, in an effort to throw light on this story and its use in the epistle of Jude. These traditions suggest that the disagreement between Michael and the devil over Moses’ body pertained not to the burial of Moses’ corpse, as previous scholarship has assumed, but to Moses’ bodily ascent into God’s presence. In this ascent account, the devil would have opposed Michael on the grounds that Moses’ fleshly, human body was inadequate for God’s presence. Further, it is probable that Jude 22-24 alludes to the same ascent story.

    " SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals.

    "Both Elias and Elijah also are reported to have appeared as two separate beings in the Kirtland temple (D&C 110:12, 13):

    "12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
    13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
    14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi--..."
    [emphasis added]

    However, Elias and Elijah are the same person. Elijah is the Hebrew name of Elias (Greek). But Joseph thought they were two different people and thus referred to them as such. Richard Packham explains in detail the problem of Elias and Elijah as used by Joseph Smith."
    Elias and Elijah appearing a the temple
     
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  10. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    I believe you will find your answer here:

    I Have a Question
     
  11. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    D&C 110

    1–10, The Lord Jehovah appears in glory and accepts the Kirtland Temple as His house; 11–12, Moses and Elias each appear and commit their keys and dispensations; 13–16, Elijah returns and commits the keys of his dispensation as promised by Malachi.

    1 The aveil was taken from our minds, and the beyes of our cunderstanding were opened.

    2 We asaw the Lord bstanding upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure cgold, in color like amber.

    3 His aeyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his bcountenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his cvoice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of dJehovah, saying:

    4 I am the afirst and the last; I am he who bliveth, I am he who was slain; I am your cadvocate with the Father.

    5 Behold, your sins are aforgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and brejoice.

    6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, abuilt this house to my name.

    7 For behold, I have aaccepted this bhouse, and my name shall be here; and I will cmanifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.

    8 Yea, I will aappear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not bpollute this choly house.

    9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the ablessings which shall be poured out, and the bendowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.

    10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be apoured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.

    11 After this avision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the regathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.

    12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.

    13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

    14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—

    15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—

    16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

    From an unbias reading it is clear D&C 110 sees him as seperate people.
     
  12. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    I forgot to say Thank You,
    daniel
     
  13. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    You are assuming that there is only one person named Elias or Elijah. Is there only one person named John?
     
  14. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Irenaeus was a bishop, who happened to be ordained by another bishop.

    His thoughts are: that since there are no more apostles, then the bishop must be their successors. He was just wrong.

    Show me Irenaeus a passage in the bible that says that the bishop will be the successors of the apostles?

    In contrast the bible says the apostles are part of the foundation of the church. (Ephesians 2:20) So the foundation of Christ's biblical church was apostles and prophets and Jesus. Says nothing of bishops. The foundation of your church is bishops and Jesus. Not biblical.
    And the apostles are there for the work to proceed rightly.
    (Ephesians 4:11-14)

    So no apostles, no foundation and no work of the ministry. No work of the ministry, no perfect saints, no complete knowledge of Jesus Christ.
    IOW nobody is being saved, except through the alternative method of Jesus Christ, which is just and righteous.
     
  15. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    I already posted the bible texts about appointed bishops in every town. So, your false claims friend are of no use to your case.
     
  16. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    When one builds a house, the foundation needs only be laid once.

    Chapter 5
    Hear now with regard to the stones which are in the building. Those square white stones which fitted exactly into each other, are apostles, bishops, teachers, and deacons, who have lived in godly purity, and have acted as bishops and teachers and deacons chastely and reverently to the elect of God. Some of them have fallen asleep, and some still remain alive. And they have always agreed with each other, and been at peace among themselves, and listened to each other. ...

    For if the building be finished, there will not be more room for any one, but he will be rejected. This privilege, however, will belong only to him who has now been placed near the tower.

    Chapter 6
    ...

    nor have they been joined to the saints.
    ...

    Chapter 7
    Chapter 8
    ...
    For from Faith arises Self-restraint; from Self-restraint, Simplicity; from Simplicity, Guilelessness; from Guilelessness, Chastity; from Chastity, Intelligence; and from Intelligence, Love. The deeds, then, of these are pure, and chaste, and divine. Whoever devotes himself to these, and is able to hold fast by their works, shall have his dwelling in the tower with the saints of God. ...
    Chapter 9
    ...

    Vision 4
    CHURCH FATHERS: The Shepherd of Hermas, Book I
     
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