LDS Mountain Meadows Massacre: John D. Lee was a Scapegoat!

Daniel Marsh

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There is some archaeological evidence of the authenticity of the Bible, but not of the Book of Mormon.
A few years ago, a computer analysis by experts tried to prove Smith's authorship. Surprisingly, they found out:

Three scientists from Stanford University, California, conduct a computer analysis of the Book of Mormon and obtain confirmation of the Rigdon-Spalding theory.

Source: Supplementary data for "Reassessing authorship of the Book of Mormon using delta and nearest shrunken centroid classification."

The word goodly did not even exist until 1200 AD and there is no such word in ancient languages.

Google "ancient near eastern languages word goodly" for proof what I am saying is true.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I can't say anything about all the authors, because I don't know many authors, but also because not all authors are historians or historically interested people. Some just want to sell books. And some authors don't always take the facts very seriously. This applies, in the case of this subject, to Mormon and non-Mormon authors. I only trust authors who have proven through previous works that they work accurately.

Linda, check out Utah Lighthouse Ministry
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Ironhold

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I can't say anything about all the authors, because I don't know many authors, but also because not all authors are historians or historically interested people. Some just want to sell books. And some authors don't always take the facts very seriously. This applies, in the case of this subject, to Mormon and non-Mormon authors. I only trust authors who have proven through previous works that they work accurately.

The point is that Furniss' book, which was published through non-Mormon publishers, shows that many of the claims made by authors hostile to the faith aren't rooted in historical fact. The book also provides significant context to what took place, and notes the lengthy chain of events that led to the confrontation.

In response to this, even people here have gone out of their way to make false allegations about the work because they don't want to have to confront a work that contradicts their arguments.
 
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He is the way

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There is some archaeological evidence of the authenticity of the Bible, but not of the Book of Mormon.
A few years ago, a computer analysis by experts tried to prove Smith's authorship. Surprisingly, they found out:

Three scientists from Stanford University, California, conduct a computer analysis of the Book of Mormon and obtain confirmation of the Rigdon-Spalding theory.

Source: Supplementary data for "Reassessing authorship of the Book of Mormon using delta and nearest shrunken centroid classification."
Did they ascertain their findings before the Spalding manuscript was found? The Spalding manuscript is not like the Book of Mormon. Have you even read the Spalding manuscript?
 
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He is the way

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FairMormon and other LDS apologists are committed not to the facts, but to their Church, from which they receive money, directly or indirectly. They are NOT INDEPENDENT!
Here's something FairMormon claims:
Joseph Smith told the first version for different listeners.

And here is the fact:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CVJvxL2gZPg/XmlKU-cNGmI/AAAAAAAABMU/G6iIEDHZK5IxcJHIQ-PGuFBazuosemy2wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/First+Vision+v3.png

In Germany, there is a rhymed saying: anyone who lies once, one does not believe them, even if he speaks the truth. In German: Wer einmal lügt, dem glaubt man nicht, auch wenn er mal die Wahrheit spricht.

This proves that Joseph "always horny" Smith was a liar, and the LDS Church is built on lies.
You have proven NOTHING. Let me ask you this when you recount something that happened in your past do you tell it word for word the same way every time? Of course not. I also resent the "always horny" reference you make about Joseph Smith. It is NOT true and name calling is against CF rules.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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The point is that Furniss' book, which was published through non-Mormon publishers, shows that many of the claims made by authors hostile to the faith aren't rooted in historical fact. The book also provides significant context to what took place, and notes the lengthy chain of events that led to the confrontation.

In response to this, even people here have gone out of their way to make false allegations about the work because they don't want to have to confront a work that contradicts their arguments.

What is the book? Can it be downloaded for free in PDF format?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Do you call this a good source? This is a group of Mormon apologists whose job it is to make the LDS appear in a good light. With the truth, this group does not take it very seriously. I know one of them personally. He is an Austrian.
For example, they concealed the five different versions of the so-called "First Version", all of which came from Joseph "always horny" Smith. In one, Smith even claimed to have seen no God and Jesus, only angels.
FairMormon is as credible as an Adolf Hitler who would pretend to be a friend of the Jews.

Their rudeness, name calling and games are a big turn off to me. So, I do not take them seriously.
 
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He is the way

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What are the principles? That people with dark skin color are worth less than people with white skin color? Where is the proof that Jesus was in America, or that the Indians are of Simitic origin? All the claims of the Book of Mormon that have long since been contradicted by science!
I would like to remind you that lack of evidence proves nothing. God can change DNA and has done many times. Nowhere does the Book of Mormon claim that people with dark skin are worth less than other people. It is true that they may have been given harder obstacles to overcome, but so was Job.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Daniel Marsh

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You have proven nothing from the Bible because the Bible says no such thing about interracial marriages. Moses married an Ethiopian women. Aaron and Miriam tried to oppose them before God. God wasn't having any of that and punished Miriam for bringing it up. See Number 12.

God didn't want his people to marry pagans because of their culture and beliefs opposed God, not because of their race.

Trying to justify the racism of your [false] prophets is disgusting and pathetic. Do yourself a favor and just don't anymore.

"Canaanite" wives of Esau
 
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Daniel Marsh

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The scriptures I posted clearly shows that God was opposed to anyone marrying a person from these nations (which I have proven to be races).

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 7:1 - 6)

1 WHEN the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Even Jesus was sent unto the people of Israel, not Canaan:

(New Testament | Matthew 15:22 - 26)

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Jews do have distinguishing features. That being said there won't be race in the next life. Race does not make a difference to me. There are good and bad people in every nationality, race, or creed. Hopefully LOVE will overcome all.

Acts says all are of "one race".
 
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Daniel Marsh

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People who live in glass houses should not throw rocks.

Matthew 22:7
But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

If anyone even thinks of murdering someone they are guilty. Since, none of us know BY's heart we can not say. But, inditications like putting a spear into a cheating wife tells me at least that he thought about doing it to someone and condoned murder.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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You know that the Old Covenant was replaced with the New Covenant yet you keep quoting the Old (out of context). Did Brigham Young think it was okay to kill Mormons or ex-Mormons if they married Cain's posterity? Were African-Americans descendants of Cain?

Your excuse that the JoD is not scripture is a red herring. The writings of your leaders, as well as quote after quote of other non-scripture have been published in official lesson manuals for years upon years. I haven't been hiding in a cave. Thank you.


Black Intermarriage

Back to Mormon Quotes Index

Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. (1805-1844):

“Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species...”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., January 2, 1845, History of the Church, v. 5, pp. 21-218

Prophet Brigham Young (1801 -1877):

“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. The nations of the earth have transgressed every law that God has given, they have changed the ordinances and broken every covenant made with the fathers, and they are like a hungry man that dreameth that he eateth, and he awaketh and behold he is empty.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, p. 110

Prophet George Albert Smith (1870 – 1951):

“Your ideas, as we understand them, appear to contemplate the intermarriage of the Negro and white races, a concept which has heretofore been most repugnant to most normal-minded people from the ancient patriarchs until now.... there is a growing tendency, particularly among some educators, as it manifests itself in this area, toward the breaking down of race barriers in the matter of intermarriage between whites and blacks, but it does not have the sanction of the Church and is contrary to Church doctrine.”

- LDS First Presidency (George Albert Smith), letter to Virgil H. Sponberg (critic of the anti-black ban), May 5, 1947, quoted in Lester E. Bush, Mormonism's Negro Doctrine: An Historical Overview, p. 42

Apostle Mark E. Peterson (1900 – 1984):

“We must not inter-marry with the Negro. Why? If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would oil be cursed as to the priesthood. Do I want my children cursed as to the priesthood? If there is one drop of Negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse. There isn't any argument, therefore, as to inter-marriage with the Negro, is there?”

- Apostle Mark E. Peterson, “Race Problems – As They Effect the Church,” Address given at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, delivered at BYU, August 27, 1954

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915 – 1985):

“However, in a broad general sense, caste systems have their root and origin in the gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord. To illustrate: Cain, Ham, and the whole negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 114

Others:

“Brigham Young made a very strong statement on this matter when he said, ‘... shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.' God has commanded Israel not to intermarry. To go against this commandment of God would be to sin. Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come. This is spiritual death.... It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-one hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is still the same.... To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a ‘Nation of Priesthood holders.'”

- Elder John L. Lund, The Church and the Negro, pp. 54-55, 1967


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Daniel Marsh

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You have been told that the Journal of Discourses is not scripture yet you still quote it as if it was. That being said the Bible states this:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 7:2 - 4)

2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

Brigham Young compared his sermons with scripture.
"I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom . . . I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95).

Brigham Young said you are damned if you deny polygamy.
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).
 
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Moses and Solomon are two different people. Moses was not under any law not to marry a Cushite woman. That being said, Solomon was under the law NOT to marry women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites.

(Old Testament | 1 Kings 11:1 - 2)

1 BUT king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
2 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

Therefore it has not always been right to marry women of other nationalities.
 
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