LDS Mountain Meadows Massacre: John D. Lee was a Scapegoat!

LindaBerlin

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LDS: One needs Mormon baptism to become spiritually pure. One needs Mormon baptism to receive the gift of he Holy Ghost.

If a Mormon left the LDS church and requested that his name be removed, and doesn't repent of that serious sin, he would be excommunicated.

I would like to cite the example of "September Six" as an example of how Mormons deal with excommunicated people. These people were right, but they were silenced. Like that shows this video with German subtitles:

 
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He is the way

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Oh boy, you really don't have a faint glimmer of what church historians (Mormons) and historians (non-Mormons) have found. Read the book about the massacre of Fawn Brodie (a niece of David O. McKay) or Ed Bagley. Your eyes will rise.
By the way, Brodie was excommunicated by the Church because of her book. Thus, the "only true church" deals with the truth: it is denied, and the Mormons who find out about it are excommunicated because they do not want to remain silent and cover up.
Fawn Brodie's books were full of lies and half truths. If your evidence is from her books, it isn't worth anything.
 
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He is the way

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Some very simple questions for you:

1. Why did Brigham Young cover up the mormon seers and do everything to the Indians?

2. Why did nothing happen in the Mormon state of God, of which Brigham Young had not learned anything beforehand, or ordered anything, such as the murders of his police chief, a Danite, of non-Mormons and critical Mormons? Cases are well documented. If you want, I will send you the appropriate receipts.

3. Why did Brigham Young sacrifice his adopted son, John D. Lee, only when he himself was to be charged with the massacre?

4. Why did Brigham Young deny meeting the Indian chiefs a few weeks BEFORE THE MASSACRE?

Think of it, bro, and ask yourself, why your church cover-up all these things?
Here is part of the information about the Mountain Meadows Massacre"

THE BAKER-FANCHER TRAIN

Map showing the area around Mountain Meadows, highlighting the Spanish Trail
The Baker-Fancher train consisted of California-bound emigrants, men women and children, who started their journey in Arkansas and Missouri. The exact number of people in the train is estimated at 120, but some reports have put it as high as 140. Led by John T. Baker and Alexander Fancher, the train was reported to have been well-stocked, with plenty of cattle, horses, and mules.

The Baker-Fancher train arrived in Salt Lake City about the end of July 1857, camping west and a little south of the city on the Jordan River. Their arrival did not appear to raise any eyebrows or concerns, as there was no mention of them in the newspapers of the time. The group was advised by Elder Charles C. Rich of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles to head toward California by circling around the northern edge of the Great Salt Lake, and they began in that direction. Upon travelling as far as the Bear River, the train decided to take the southern route. This caused them to pass through Salt Lake City again, moving further south through Provo, Springville, and Payson.

There were no reports of problems related to the Baker-Fancher party until they reached Fillmore, about 150 miles south of Salt Lake City. Commencing at this point and through settlements to the south, there were complaints that the emigrants boasted of participating the violence against Mormons in both Missouri and Illinois, that they poisoned a spring, and that they threatened to destroy one of the Mormon settlements.

It was also common knowledge that the train originated in Arkansas, where earlier in the year beloved apostle Parley P. Pratt had been murdered near the town of Van Buren. Rumor had it some of the members of the train were among those who had participated in Pratt's murder, or that they bragged about his killing. There are also reports that some of the emigrants told a few Latter-day Saints that once they had transported their families to California they would return, join the army, and help subdue the Mormons.

Whether there is any truth to these rumors, it is clear the travels of the Baker-Fancher train through southern Utah did not go unnoticed as they were in northern Utah. The presence of the train seemed to exacerbate the tensions already present due to the Utah War.

OVERLAND TRAVEL CONDITIONS
Commencing with the opening of Oregon Territory, and accelerated by the discovery of gold in California, large numbers of emigrants crossed the interior of the continent to the West Coast. Before the completion of the first transcontinental railroad in 1869, overland travel was both difficult and dangerous. Native Americans, alarmed by the ever-increasing numbers of white settlers crossing their land, frequently attacked emigrant groups. Weather was another potential danger, with winter coming early to the high country and sudden storms occurring during all seasons of the year. For protection against these hazards, emigrants typically banded together in large parties called "wagon trains," covered wagons of the "prairie schooner" type being the most typical vehicles used. The climate made overland travel a seasonal affair as emigrant parties would try to complete their crossings during the warm months. To be caught on the high plains or the mountain passes when winter came was often a deadly mistake."

More at: Mountain Meadows Massacre/History - FairMormon
 
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He is the way

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Here is more:

"The Mormon settlements of Utah provided important rest and reprovisioning points for overland travelers. One of the most widely used wagon trails to California branched off the Oregon trail in Northern Utah, running almost due South through Salt Lake City, eventually joining the Old Spanish Trail. Emigrants could purchase foodstuffs and other supplies from businesses in Salt Lake City and other towns, while their animals—both beasts of burden and any livestock—could find excellent grazing at a spot near the west end of the Pine Valley Mountains, about 30 miles west of Cedar City and 28 miles north of St. George, known as las Vegas de Santa Clara or the Mountain Meadows. It was common for emigrant parties to camp there for several days or even weeks while their animals gained condition for the grueling desert crossings still to come.

The Main Participants
Main articles: Brigham Young ordered Mountain Meadows Massacre? and Brigham's letter mysteriously lost?
There were many participants in the tragedy at Mountain Meadows. The following are considered to be the main participants, from a historical perspective. (The individuals are listed in alphabetical order.)

William H. Dame was, at the time of the massacre, the commander of the Iron Military District with the militia rank of colonel. He was also serving as president of the Parowan Stake. Initially, he counseled letting the wagon train leave in peace. Later, he decided not to help the emigrants fend off what he thought was an Indian attack unless they requested it. Finally, becoming aware of the true situation at the Mountain Meadows, he reluctantly authorized the use of the militia to finish the massacre in time to avoid discovery. While not at the site until after the massacre, he was, by the standards of military justice applicable both then and now, administratively responsible for the actions of officers and soldiers under his command.

Isaac C. Haight was a major over the Second Battalion in the Iron County militia and president of the Cedar City stake. Haight was the mastermind behind the massacre. After being denied permission to use the militia, Haight recruited John D. Lee and others to incite the Indians to attack the train. Efforts to bring Haight and others to justice after the massacre proved to be fruitless.

John H. Higbee was a major over the Third Battalion in the Iron County militia and town marshal of Cedar City. His ecclesiastical position was first counselor in the stake presidency of Isaac C. Haight. After a failed attempt to arrest rowdy members of the train for criminal offenses, he conspired with Haight to punish the wagon train. When Dame permitted, Higbee led troops to the Meadows carrying orders to completely destroy the wagon train.

Philip Klingensmith was a bishop in Cedar City and private in the Iron County militia. In this latter role, he carried orders and other messages between various militia officers. He was present at the massacre and subsequently turned states' evidence, but his testimony was of no real help to the authorities.

John Doyle Lee was a major over the Fourth Battalion in the Iron County militia. At the Mountain Meadows, Lee led Indians and other Mormons in the early unsuccessful stages of the siege. After Higbee's arrival with reinforcements, Lee convinced the emigrants to surrender their weapons under false pretenses. Lee was the only person ever brought to trial for his involvement in the massacre.

The Massacre
As the Baker-Fancher train camped at Mountain Meadows, some of the residents of Cedar City and the surrounding areas determined that some action needed to be taken against the emigrants. The heightened anxiety brought on by rumors swirling about the train, the advancing federal troops, the drought that many had suffered through for the year, and the memories of violence in Missouri and Illinois all combined in an explosive atmosphere; yet the residents were unclear on what action they should take.

This excellent summary of events in the days immediately preceding the massacre is provided by Robert H. Briggs:

On or about 2 September 1857, some encounters between individuals in the Fancher train and others in the Mormon iron mining settlement of Cedar City sparked an angry reaction among the Mormon settlers. By Friday, 4 September, however, militia leaders in Cedar City had decided against direct Mormon interference with the train. Thus, Major (also stake president) Isaac Haight dispatched couriers to Pinto, a new settlement near the California Road directly west of Cedar City. The couriers, Joel White and Philip Klingensmith, carried orders for settlers there to not interfere with the approaching emigrant train. Meanwhile, however, a pivotal meeting occurred that same evening in Cedar City between Major Isaac Haight of the Second Battalion and Major John D. Lee of the Fourth. What emerged was a plan to incite local Paiute Indians to gather at Mountain Meadows with Lee as their leader. Lee departed in the early hours of Saturday, 5 September. Evidently, Lee had no further contact with militia leaders at Cedar for the better part of the next four days.
Lee returned home to Fort Harmony and laid over on Saturday and part of Sunday, making preparations. He departed for the Meadows on Sunday and arrived there later that afternoon or evening. Other couriers carried word to outlying settlements, each relaying that Indians were to be assembled. There was some confusion about exactly where this rendezvous was to occur. Many Paiutes from the region of Cedar and Fort Harmony were sent to Mountain Meadows. Other bands along the Santa Clara River were urged to gather at Santa Clara Canyon (west of present Veyo).
Similar preparations continued in Cedar City over the weekend but came to a halt in mid-afternoon on Sunday, 6 September. During the usual council meeting of community leaders from Cedar City and outlying settlements, Laban Morrill lead a faction which heatedly opposed Isaac Haight’s plan. Morrill extracted a promise from Haight that no aggressive action would be taken against any emigrants until they had sought the advice of President Brigham Young. Thus, as things stood in Cedar City, the plan was off.
All of this was unknown to John D. Lee. At that moment, Lee was en route to the Mountain Meadows, his adopted Indian son in tow to act as interpreter. They met up with Paiute bands at Mountain Meadows that afternoon or evening. One line of evidence suggests that Santa Clara Canyon, roughly a dozen miles south of Mountain Meadows, was where the planned attack would occur. Yet early Monday morning, 7 September, Lee’s Paiute auxiliary force attacked the emigrant encampment at the southern tip of Mountain Meadows. We will probably never know for certain whether Lee attacked according to a preconceived plan or, driven by some personal desire or impulse, attacked on his own initiative. In any case, as things stood at the Meadows, the attack was on.
Activity erupted throughout Southern Utah. In Cedar City, Major Haight dispatched the youthful Englishman James Haslam to Great Salt Lake City for orders from President Young. Haight also sent an express via Joseph Clews to Amos Thornton at Pinto which Thornton was to relay. In it, Haight ordered Lee to "keep the Indians off the emigrants and protect them from harm until further orders." Thornton rode to the Meadows but searched in vain for Lee. Unbeknownst to Thornton, Lee had gone south, spending the night near Santa Clara Canyon with Mormon militiamen and the Paiute allies he encountered there. This group arrived at the Meadows on Tuesday afternoon, 8 September. That is the earliest Lee could have received an express that the planned attack had been postponed.
There were additional expresses between Tuesday, 8 September and Thursday, 10 September. The most significant of these was one from militia headquarters in Parowan which conveyed the ambiguous order to save emigrants lives yet not to precipitate a war with the Indians under any circumstances.[2]
In a meeting at Cedar City on the afternoon of September 6, 1857, local leaders received word the wagon train at Mountain Meadows had been surrounded by Paiute Indians who were determined to attack the emigrants. (Some historians are undecided as to whether Paiute Indians were actually involved in the massacre at all; some assert that it was white men disguised as Indians.) The leaders decided that they needed to ask Brigham Young what to do, so they dispatched a fast rider to Salt Lake City with a message to that effect. James H. Haslam, the messenger, left on Monday, September 7, and made the 300-mile journey in just a little more than three days. Within an hour he had an answer from Brigham Young and began the journey back to Cedar City. Young's message said, in part, "In regard to the emigration trains passing through our settlements, we must not interfere with them until they are first notified to keep away. You must not meddle with them. The Indians we expect will do as they please but you should try and preserve good feelings with them." Unfortunately, the messenger arrived back in Cedar City two days after the massacre, on September 13, 1857.

As Haslam was leaving for Salt Lake City on September 7, the Indians' attack commenced. Several of the emigrants were killed, as were several of the Indians, producing a stalemate situation. The emigrants circled their wagons and dug into a rifle pit and the Indians sent a call to the surrounding country for reinforcements. They also sent for John D. Lee, an area farmer on friendly terms with the Indians. According to Lee's later court testimony, the Indians asked him to help with the attack. Lee instead sent word to Cedar City on September 10, asking what should be done."

Also from: Mountain Meadows Massacre/History - FairMormon
 
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BigDaddy4

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So everyone of those nationalities were pagans and would turn God's people away from God. Was Ethiopia mentioned there? Nope. Did Moses marry anyone from those nations? Nope. Had he done so he would have disobeyed God. However Solomon did disobey God (see 1 Kings 11). That was his downfall.
Was the list all inclusive? Moses was not black, but his wife was. Different races. This was why Miriam and Aaron opposed the marriage as recorded in Numbers 12. God did NOT oppose the interracial marriage. Your assertions are just wrong.
 
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LindaBerlin

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Fawn Brodie's books were full of lies and half truths. If your evidence is from her books, it isn't worth anything.

And, of course, I also lie because I tell everyone the truth about the cult of Mormons.
Ms. Brodie was one of the first Mormons to write openly and honestly about the dark history of Mormons, and had many evidence.
The Mormon historian Dr. Michael Quinn was another. He criticized the leadership of the LDS cult for its cover-ups in LDS history. He was excommunicated as part of the "September Six". Another professional who were excommunicated and lost his church position:

Thomas Ferguson
He was an archaeologist who spent about 20 years searching for evidence of the Book of Mormon for the Church and it was funded by a lot of money, but returned home virtually empty-handed. When the Book Abraham Papyri were finally rediscovered and translated in the 1960s, he finally lost his testimony of the truthfulness of the HLT Church.
Ferguson proved that many of the things described in the Book of Mormon (places, animals, plants, etc.; came to the New World long after the fourth century.
Ferguson concluded his Ferguson paper by saying, "I don't have the answer to the dilemma, I'm just pointing it out."
 
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LindaBerlin

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Here is part of the information about the Mountain Meadows Massacre"
More at: Mountain Meadows Massacre/History - FairMormon

Do you call this a good source? This is a group of Mormon apologists whose job it is to make the LDS appear in a good light. With the truth, this group does not take it very seriously. I know one of them personally. He is an Austrian.
For example, they concealed the five different versions of the so-called "First Version", all of which came from Joseph "always horny" Smith. In one, Smith even claimed to have seen no God and Jesus, only angels.
FairMormon is as credible as an Adolf Hitler who would pretend to be a friend of the Jews.
 
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Ironhold

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Do you call this a good source? This is a group of Mormon apologists whose job it is to make the LDS appear in a good light. With the truth, this group does not take it very seriously. I know one of them personally. He is an Austrian.
For example, they concealed the five different versions of the so-called "First Version", all of which came from Joseph "always horny" Smith. In one, Smith even claimed to have seen no God and Jesus, only angels.
FairMormon is as credible as an Adolf Hitler who would pretend to be a friend of the Jews.

If you're concerned about sources, then what about the book from Furniss I posted on the first page of this conversation?
 
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He is the way

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And, of course, I also lie because I tell everyone the truth about the cult of Mormons.
Ms. Brodie was one of the first Mormons to write openly and honestly about the dark history of Mormons, and had many evidence.
The Mormon historian Dr. Michael Quinn was another. He criticized the leadership of the LDS cult for its cover-ups in LDS history. He was excommunicated as part of the "September Six". Another professional who were excommunicated and lost his church position:

Thomas Ferguson
He was an archaeologist who spent about 20 years searching for evidence of the Book of Mormon for the Church and it was funded by a lot of money, but returned home virtually empty-handed. When the Book Abraham Papyri were finally rediscovered and translated in the 1960s, he finally lost his testimony of the truthfulness of the HLT Church.
Ferguson proved that many of the things described in the Book of Mormon (places, animals, plants, etc.; came to the New World long after the fourth century.
Ferguson concluded his Ferguson paper by saying, "I don't have the answer to the dilemma, I'm just pointing it out."
There are also dilemmas concerning the Bible which atheists are quick to point out. They say there is no proof of the flood, etc. etc. etc. I have faith that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are true and that they are from God. Faith is believing even when we don't have all of the answers because we know that the concepts true. I know that the teachings contained in the Book of Mormon are true. We should always LOVE God and obey Him.
 
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Do you call this a good source? This is a group of Mormon apologists whose job it is to make the LDS appear in a good light. With the truth, this group does not take it very seriously. I know one of them personally. He is an Austrian.
For example, they concealed the five different versions of the so-called "First Version", all of which came from Joseph "always horny" Smith. In one, Smith even claimed to have seen no God and Jesus, only angels.
FairMormon is as credible as an Adolf Hitler who would pretend to be a friend of the Jews.
Yes FairMormon is a credible source, a much better source than Fawn Brodie and those determined to fight against The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. Their perspective is far more skewed than FairMormon. LDS apologists are NOT liars. Their research is the truth.

Joseph Smith's First Vision - FairMormon
 
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Daniel Marsh

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There are also dilemmas concerning the Bible which atheists are quick to point out. They say there is no proof of the flood, etc. etc. etc. I have faith that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are true and that they are from God. Faith is believing even when we don't have all of the answers because we know that the concepts true. I know that the teachings contained in the Book of Mormon are true. We should always LOVE God and obey Him.

There is lots of proof for the flood. One need dig holes in many places to see the layers match.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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If you're concerned about sources, then what about the book from Furniss I posted on the first page of this conversation?

Where is the historical proof of the BOM from non-LDS Scholars?
 
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He is the way

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There is lots of proof for the flood. One need dig holes in many places to see the layers match.
And the precepts found in the Book of Mormon are correct. The principals found therein are also correct.
 
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LindaBerlin

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If you're concerned about sources, then what about the book from Furniss I posted on the first page of this conversation?

I can't say anything about all the authors, because I don't know many authors, but also because not all authors are historians or historically interested people. Some just want to sell books. And some authors don't always take the facts very seriously. This applies, in the case of this subject, to Mormon and non-Mormon authors. I only trust authors who have proven through previous works that they work accurately.
 
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LindaBerlin

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There are also dilemmas concerning the Bible which atheists are quick to point out. They say there is no proof of the flood, etc. etc. etc. I have faith that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are true and that they are from God. Faith is believing even when we don't have all of the answers because we know that the concepts true. I know that the teachings contained in the Book of Mormon are true. We should always LOVE God and obey Him.

There is some archaeological evidence of the authenticity of the Bible, but not of the Book of Mormon.
A few years ago, a computer analysis by experts tried to prove Smith's authorship. Surprisingly, they found out:

Three scientists from Stanford University, California, conduct a computer analysis of the Book of Mormon and obtain confirmation of the Rigdon-Spalding theory.

Source: Supplementary data for "Reassessing authorship of the Book of Mormon using delta and nearest shrunken centroid classification."
 
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LindaBerlin

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Yes FairMormon is a credible source, a much better source than Fawn Brodie and those determined to fight against The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. Their perspective is far more skewed than FairMormon. LDS apologists are NOT liars. Their research is the truth.

FairMormon and other LDS apologists are committed not to the facts, but to their Church, from which they receive money, directly or indirectly. They are NOT INDEPENDENT!
Here's something FairMormon claims:
Joseph Smith told the first version for different listeners.

And here is the fact:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CVJvxL2gZPg/XmlKU-cNGmI/AAAAAAAABMU/G6iIEDHZK5IxcJHIQ-PGuFBazuosemy2wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/First+Vision+v3.png

In Germany, there is a rhymed saying: anyone who lies once, one does not believe them, even if he speaks the truth. In German: Wer einmal lügt, dem glaubt man nicht, auch wenn er mal die Wahrheit spricht.

This proves that Joseph "always horny" Smith was a liar, and the LDS Church is built on lies.
 
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LindaBerlin

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And the precepts found in the Book of Mormon are correct. The principals found therein are also correct.

What are the principles? That people with dark skin color are worth less than people with white skin color? Where is the proof that Jesus was in America, or that the Indians are of Simitic origin? All the claims of the Book of Mormon that have long since been contradicted by science!
 
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Daniel Marsh

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And the precepts found in the Book of Mormon are correct. The principals found therein are also correct.

Since JS quoted part of the Bible in the BOM and he was exposed to a Christian environment human influence does explain that friend.
 
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What are the principles? That people with dark skin color are worth less than people with white skin color? Where is the proof that Jesus was in America, or that the Indians are of Simitic origin? All the claims of the Book of Mormon that have long since been contradicted by science!

Hi Linda, Genetically, Native Americans are most closely related to East Asians. Native American genomes contain genetic signals from Western Eurasia due in part to their descent from a common Siberian population during the Upper Paleolithic period. I googled, "American Indians DNA

My Family are praying for Success in everything you do, good health and wisdom for everyone you know or who you will ever know including your future mate.

Proverbs 9:10 Easy-to-Read Version

Wisdom begins with fear and respect for the Lord. Knowledge of the Holy One leads to understanding.
 
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