GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

[HARK!]

I would like to know, from those who believe we are under the old covenant ten commandments,

We aren't under the law if we are obedient to the law.

(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

(CLV) Ro 3:20
because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin.

I obey YHWH's eternal law in the renewed covenant.

Exodus 31:16 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

16 The people of Isra’el are to keep the Shabbat, to observe Shabbat through all their generations as a perpetual covenant.

 

[HARK!]

Tell us, all you SDAs who tell us you "keep" the commandments of God and everyone else is lawless, why you can separate one commandment from another, casting aside the commands of the old covenant to keep the feasts and all of the other commands that would pertain to the layperson? You want to look like all of us sinners by avoiding to keep the command not to cut your sideburns. Are you not to be a special people like the Jews who were instructed not to cut that hair, especially since you tell us you are grafted into Israel? Shouldn't others see the difference in who is Holy from those of the World? Why do you avoid the old covenant command that would set you aside from all of us lawless ones headed to eternal damnation? Jews could not tell if another was circumcised, but they sure could tell by ones sideburns.

How can you separate one from another? If you feel justified in ignoring one of YHWH's commandments; why wouldn't you feel justified in ignoring all of them?

(CLV) Ja 2:10
For anyone who should be keeping the whole law, yet should be tripping in one thing, has become liable for all.

I try to encourage my brothers and sisters to pray incessantly for the strength to do the will of our father, in love for him. It seems to me that you are discouraging that. If I'm mistaken in this perception; please explain to me what you are attempting to accomplish by pointing the finger at people who might fall short on a particular point; while personally rejecting the points where they strongly walk in obedience to our father's word.

 

[Bob S]

How can you separate one from another? If you feel justified in ignoring one of YHWH's commandments; why wouldn't you feel justified in ignoring all of them?

I think you should address those questions to the SDAs on the forum Hark. I admit and proclaim that I am not under the laws of the old covenant. Jesus has given me new laws, many of which are found in the old covenant laws. Again, I ask, were the commands written by God with His finger anymore sacred to Israel that the laws spoken from His mouth?

(CLV) Ja 2:10
For anyone who should be keeping the whole law, yet should be tripping in one thing, has become liable for all.

I try to encourage my brothers and sisters to pray incessantly for the strength to do the will of our father, in love for him.

Thank you Hark. The point of contention is what is the will of Jesus. How can anyone deny Jesus words in Jn15: 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
Jesus, in Jn15, said kept the laws of the old covenant. Born a Jew He automatically was under the laws God gave to Israel, the old covenant laws. The Father's intention was for Jesus to fulfill the promise of Jeremiah to proclaim a new covenant not like the old one, one with better promises. Thus at the end of Jesus life He nailed to the Cross the covenant He lived under and ratified the new covenant with His own blood. The new covenant released Israel from the old covenant and also includes all mankind. Jesus covenant to us is not about a bunch of ritual commands, it is about marvelous Grace and love. Jn 15 explains all of this. New covenant Christians are commanded to love others as Jesus loves us. There is no other command like that command and is reinterated in 1Jn 3:19-24. I, for one am a new covenant Christian. Actually there is no other choice that God has given man if we want to live eternally. All other choices come from other gods satan.

It seems to me that you are discouraging that.

I am sorry I have given you that impression. Debating sometimes leaves all of us with false impressions. Each of us are convinced of certain things. We all try to convince others of what we believe. When I see that someone is diverting the meaning of scripture I act to provide what I have come to believe always fro God's Word. What is really discouraging is instead of debating the issue most either attack us or neglect to even acknowledge our posts. You have taken on a position on the forum and should be reading what we all write and, of course, not be biased in any way. I admit it would be a hard job to accomplish, but it was your decision.

If I'm mistaken in this perception; please explain to me what you are attempting to accomplish by pointing the finger at people who might fall short on a particular point; while personally rejecting the points where they strongly walk in obedience to our father's word.

Hold on there partner, are you unable to tell the difference of pointing fingers at others and debating their comments????? You point to the laws of the now annulled old covenant as being the Father's Word. I, on the other hand, believe the Words of Jesus as being the words of the new covenant not just for Jews like the old one was, but for all mankind as Jesus indicated. 1jn 3: 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

I pray that you and all who oppose my views that you will be able to recognize that I am not pointing fingers. I am not the judge and have never tried to judge anyone. Our all knowing God is full capable of handling that task. Asking pointed questions is in no way pointing fingers.It would be nice if all of you would answer thoes questions.

 

[HARK!]

I think you should address those questions to the SDAs on the forum Hark.

I might just do that, when I have an opportunity to speak to then in sincerity, and in love, without the opportunity for scofflaws to take my encouraging words, and use them as a weapon against them.

However, this question was directed toward you. If you don't have an answer for me; I'll understand.

 

[HARK!]

I admit and proclaim that I am not under the laws of the old covenant. Jesus has given me new laws, many of which are found in the old covenant laws.

If they are found in the TaNaK; then obviously they aren't new laws. So what laws do you consider yourself to be under under? Can I see a list of all of these laws?

 

[HARK!]

Thank you Hark. The point of contention is what is the will of Jesus. How can anyone deny Jesus words in Jn15: 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

Jn15: 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands (plural), you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands (plural) and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

(CLV) Jn 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and We shall be coming to him and making an abode with him.

(CLV) Jn 14:24
He who is not loving Me, is not keeping My words. And the word which you are hearing is not Mine, but the Father's Who sends Me.

You're welcome.

 

[Bob S]

Jn15: 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands (plural), you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands (plural) and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

(CLV) Jn 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and We shall be coming to him and making an abode with him.

(CLV) Jn 14:24
He who is not loving Me, is not keeping My words. And the word which you are hearing is not Mine, but the Father's Who sends Me.

You're welcome.

What is your point. Yes, Jesus gave us commands other that the greatest new command unlike any command ever given. We are to believe Jesus is our Saviour, we are to come together and keep communion, we are to love others as Jesus loves us and we are to avoid all evil including impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

Nowhere does Jesus tell us we must keep ritual days.

 

[HARK!]

I admit it would be a hard job to accomplish, but it was your decision.

What was my decision?

 

[HARK!]

What is your point. Yes, Jesus gave us commands other that the greatest new command unlike any command ever given. We are to believe Jesus is our Saviour, we are to come together and keep communion, we are to love others as Jesus loves us and we are to avoid all evil including impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

Nowhere does Jesus tell us we must keep ritual days.

Yahshua's commands are the Father's commands. Yahshua followed his Father's commands; and called us to follow his example. Yahshua said that his father's commands are eternal; just like his father did.

You mock YHWH's eternal appointed times by making them out as some sort of ritual.

Yahshua told us the greatest commandment. He recited the Shema, as found the Law of YHWH.

(CLV) DT 6:4
4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One. 5 So you will love Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity. 6 These words which I am instructing you today will come to be in your heart.

Remember that YHWH spoke through Yahshua. Yahshua's words are his Father's words.

Here is what the Father is telling those who believe in Yahshua.

(CLV) Jn 14:15
If you should be loving Me, you will be keeping My precepts.

John reiterated it:

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

YHWH's law confirms it:

(CLV) Dt 30:11
For this instruction that I am enjoining on you today, it is neither too difficult for you, nor is it too far off.

 

[HARK!]

I am sorry I have given you that impression. Debating sometimes leaves all of us with false impressions.

Let's review your words.

Tell us, all you SDAs

What point were you debating; and who made the point? You didn't even quote anyone; but you expect the whole SDA community to defend a point that you didn't even quote? C'mon... This looks more like off topic contempt for SDAs to me.

 

[Bob S]

I might just do that, when I have an opportunity to speak to then in sincerity, and in love, without the opportunity for scofflaws to take my encouraging words, and use them as a weapon against them.

I can see that you didn't pay any attention to my post and continue to deride me with you subtill innuendos.

However, this question was directed toward you. If you don't have an answer for me; I'll understand.

I don't believe a word that you understand. I answered that question quite adequately. I wrote: "I admit and proclaim that I am not under the laws of the old covenant. Jesus has given me new laws, many of which are found in the old covenant laws. Again, I ask, were the commands written by God with His finger anymore sacred to Israel that the laws spoken from His mouth?"

New Covenant Christians know we are not under the ritual and civil laws of the old covenant. Laws dealing with morality are forever. Why is it you cannot accept these truths? The old covenant was given to one nation, Israel and ended at Calvary.

 

[Bob S]

Let's review your words.
What point were you debating; and who made the point? You didn't even quote anyone; but you expect the whole SDA community to defend a point that you didn't even quote? C'mon... This looks more like off topic contempt for SDAs to me.

How unfair you are by dissecting my post to just

Tell us, all you SDAs

and then somehow dismissing my post because I didn't quote someone. What it looks like to you is immaterial and it is just another ploy to put me down. You tell me I am pointing fingers at others and I say you are the real guilty one.

For all the lurkers on the forum and anyone else that would like to know the real truth about my post, I wrote the following in answer to the false claim that we who know we are not under the old covenant laws are told we are lawless. "Tell us, all you SDAs who tell us you "keep" the commandments of God and everyone else is lawless, why you can separate one commandment from another, casting aside the commands of the old covenant to keep the feasts and all of the other commands that would pertain to the layperson? You want to look like all of us sinners by avoiding to keep the command not to cut your sideburns. Are you not to be a special people like the Jews who were instructed not to cut that hair, especially since you tell us you are grafted into Israel? Shouldn't others see the difference in who is Holy from those of the World? Why do you avoid the old covenant command that would set you aside from all of us lawless ones headed to eternal damnation? Jews could not tell if another was circumcised, but they sure could tell by ones sideburns."

SDAs have not come up to bat to answer my questions or appologize for calling us lawless. So Hark, instead of trying to make me look bad for posting something that needs to be answered why not step up and answer my post because afterall Messianics who also believe they are under the laws of the old covenant pick and choose the laws they seem to think are important and ignore some.

 

[Bob S]

What was my decision?

to take a position as a staff member

 

[JLB777]

God's 4th commandment explains itself in Exodus 20:8-11. We are commanded by God to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy". It is a holy day of rest where no work is to be done that we are to set aside on the "seventh day of the week as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of Heaven and earth. Jesus taught it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath *

You just said we were under the New Covenant, now you are quoting from the old covenant.

You seem to be confused.


Jesus nor His Apostles ever instructed the Church to offer animals as offerings on the Sabbath.



We are no longer in the old covenant.



If you have scriptures from Jesus or His Apostles, about how the Church is to “remember the Sabbath” please share.


If not then we can all conclude the Sabbath requirements as given under the law are abolished.






JLB

 

[JLB777]

If you had read the post that you were responding to; you would have seen that I answered this question before you even asked.

Why do you cook your food on Friday?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You just said we were under the New Covenant, now you are quoting from the old covenant. You seem to be confused.
Jesus nor His Apostles ever instructed the Church to offer animals as offerings on the Sabbath.
We are no longer in the old covenant. If you have scriptures from Jesus or His Apostles, about how the Church is to “remember the Sabbath” please share. If not then we can all conclude the Sabbath requirements as given under the law are abolished.JLB

Not really dear friend the confusion is yours not mine as you only part quoted what I said. The new covenant was first given in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 and repeated in Hebrews 8:10-12. The rest of the post that you left out of your comments above shows the scriptures that disagree with your teachings showing the difference between the old and new covenants. The Mosiac laws for remission of sin are not Gods' eternal moral laws (10 commandments) which are the standard of sin and righteousness in the new covenant that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and righteousness when obeyed *Psalms 119:172. God's 4th commandment explains itself in Exodus 20:8-11. We are commanded by God to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy". It is a holy day of rest where no work is to be done that we are to set aside on the "seventh day of the week as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of Heaven and earth. Jesus taught it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath *Matthew 12:1-12; that he is Lord of the Sabbath *Mark 2:28 and that He made the Sabbath for all mankind in Mark 2:27. Jesus is our example *1 Peter 2:21-25 and his custom was to keep the Sabbath *Luke 4:16. Paul follows the thoughts of JESUS when he says "Therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath in Hebrews 4:9. By the way the new covenant does not delete the old covenant. In the days of JESUS and the Apostles the Old covenant scriptures were their bible. Nearly everything we have in the new covenant comes from the old testament scriptures *2 Timothy 3:16; 1 Corinthians 10:11; Matthew 4:4; Hebrews 8:10-12 (from Jeremiah 31:31-34). Together both the old and new testament scriptures make up the Word of God that testifies of JESUS and God's plan of salvation for all mankind. In regards to Ephesians 2:15. God's 10 commandments are not contained in ordinances. The Greek words used here is G1378 dogma δόγμα and means a civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law (e.g. circumcision, animal sacrifices for sin offerings, washings, and holy days) these laws were the enmity that separated the Jews and Gentiles believers and made God's salvation of the old covenant strictly Jewish. Jesus is our true sacrifice for sin and sins penalty (death - Romans 6:23) bringing reconciliation to both Jew and gentile believers. All are now one in Christ *Ephesians 2:11-13; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29; Colossians 3:11 and Romans 10:11-13.

Your welcome

 

[Gary K]

To those who are Sunday keepers I address the following question.

What law, or laws, did Jesus give in the Bible?

 

[Bob S]

I know of no "Sunday keepers". Jesus didn't give any laws, if He had given laws asking us to "Keep" a day we certainly would. Keeping days are not new covenant requirements. Keeping days, I do believe, was God's plan for only one nation Israel.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I know of no "Sunday keepers". Jesus didn't give any laws, if He had given laws asking us to "Keep" a day we certainly would. Keeping days are not new covenant requirements. Keeping days, I do believe, was God's plan for only one nation Israel.

God has not changed His moral laws. If he had changed them he would have said so. There is no scripture that says Sunday is a holy day and Gods 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath of the 10 commandments has been abolished in the new covenant. God's eternal law (10 commandments) from the old testament is the same God's law (10 commandments) in the new testament. God's law (10 commandments) give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken as shown in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. Shows us how love is expressed here in Matthew 5:17-20; 1 John 3:4-9; Matthew 22:36-40. Is a part of God's new covenant promise to be written on the heart by faith that works by love here; Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:10-11; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:1-4; 1 John 2:3-4, Is demonstrated in the lives of those who have been born again in the Spirit love and follow JESUS here *John 14:15; John 15:10; 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4 etc, etc... Need more new testament scriptures showing that Jesus and the Apostles taught God's law (10 commandments)? Here you go (linked). Do you need more new testament scriptures showing everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new testament? Here you are (linked). So I guess we keep to what the scriptures teach. "Therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath." - Hebrews 4:9.

 

[HARK!]

You have taken on a position on the forum and should be reading what we all write and, of course, not be biased in any way. I admit it would be a hard job to accomplish, but it was your decision.

I have no obligation to read what you all write. Besides that, it's humanly impossible. We all have biases; and I do my best to remain unbiased. I feel confident that I'm unbiased in my understanding that those who would come into a Sabbath & Law forum, and undermine the importance of keeping the Sabbath and the Law, are attempting to discourage others from keeping the Sabbath and the Law.

The evidence is quite blatant really. I would say that it would require tremendous bias not to recognize that.