GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

[BobRyan]

Because the thief believed he was saved by the blood of Jesus. It is called God's grace and has nothing to do with obedience. We are all sinners saved by grace and not by any works of the old covenant law. Our works are like filthy rags.
Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Even so ... "By their fruits you shall know them" Matt 7, Christ claims good fruit comes from the good tree.

 

[Bob S]

You just cannot keep from adding to the truth. My posts are never good enough or agreeable.

 

[Bob S]

Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:



Do you realize that you are quoting the TaNaK?

What would make you think I didn't? I have never indicated that I do not believe in all of scripture. There are some scriptures that were not meant for new testament believers and that doesn't mean we can't learn something from every word. Some scripture I don't understand and when I have indicated so not one of you have responded indicating that you, too, have no answer.

 

[HARK!]

What would make you think I didn't? I have never indicated that I do not believe in all of scripture. There are some scriptures that were not meant for new testament believers and that doesn't mean we can't learn something from every word. Some scripture don't understand and when I have indicated so not one of you have responded indicating that you, too, have no answer.

(CLV) 2Ti 3:16
All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction (For correction of what?), for discipline in righteousness,

What is righteousness?

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS


(CLV) 1Jn 3:7
Little children, let no one be deceiving you. He who is doing righteousness is just, according as He is just.

Do you realize that when this was written, that the "NT" hadn't been complied? He's speaking of the TaNaK.

 

[guevaraj]

You just cannot keep from adding to the truth. My posts are never good enough or agreeable.

Brother, happy Sabbath! You are not harmonizing all the Scriptures. You are taking what you like and making it override what you don't like by inventing a division that doesn't exist. We are from the "part" of "all Israel" that accepted Jesus and no longer of the Gentiles, who have "come in" in Romans 11:25 to 32. Jesus really wants more from us than He wanted from the Jews, not less. You deny Jesus' clear statements because you don't like what He says. Where does it say that we are supposed to like the truth so that you can invent a defense for what you want in contradiction to what is revealed?

There are those who curse their fathers and do not bless their mothers; those who are pure in their own eyes and yet are not cleansed of their filth; (Proverbs 30:11-12 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I suppose he remained obedient to the end too.

Very true, he did not have much time left to do any more stealing. How blessed was he?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Because the thief believed he was saved by the blood of Jesus. It is called God's grace and has nothing to do with obedience. We are all sinners saved by grace and not by any works of the old covenant law. Our works are like filthy rags.
Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

No it is called justification. JESUS had not yet died and his blood was not yet spilt before he forgave the thief on the cross. Who has power to forgive sins? God *Mark 2:4-10. Justification (God's forgiveness when we believe) is not the same as sanctification (following Gods' Word - the work of a lifetime). Only God knows the heart and repentance (turning away from sin - unbelief and breaking Gods' commandments) is one of the conditions of God's salvation. *Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Mark 1:5; Mark 6:12; Luke 13:3; Acts of the Apostles 2:38; 3:19; 8:22; 17:30 etc...

 

[HARK!]

JESUS had not yet died and his blood was not yet spilt before he forgave the thief on the cross.

That's a really good point.

 

[JLB777]

Maybe all the Sabbath keepers can explain how the Church is to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.


We see how it was commanded to be observed under the law of Moses, but we need to see how Jesus and His Apostles taught the Church to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant;
Under the law of Christ.


Again, the law of Moses required the children of Israel, to observe the Sabbath in a very specific and strict way.

Those who did not keep these specific requirements were put to death.

Here are a few passages that describe the Sabbath requirements under the law of Moses —


Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’ ” So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16:23-30





And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:12-15




Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, “These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”Exodus 35:1-3



Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36



‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering. Numbers 28:9-10



Do you believe the Church is to observe these Sabbath requirements today, under the New Covenant?




JLB

 

[HARK!]

Maybe all the Sabbath keepers can explain how the Church is to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.


We see how it was commanded to be observed under the law of Moses, but we need to see how Jesus and His Apostles taught the Church to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant;
Under the law of Christ.


Again, the law of Moses required the children of Israel, to observe the Sabbath in a very specific and strict way.

Those who did not keep these specific requirements were put to death.

Here are a few passages that describe the Sabbath requirements under the law of Moses —


Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’ ” So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16:23-30

There is no manna to cook; but YHWH makes other provisions for me. I cook them on the sixth day, in preparation for the seventh.

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:12-15

I don't work on Shabbat. It's easy.

Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, “These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”Exodus 35:1-3

I don't start fires on the Sabbath.

Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36

I don't gather firewood on the Sabbath; and it is unlawful to stone someone to death outside of the jurisidiction of the Judges of YHWH's Court.

‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering. Numbers 28:9-10

I don't offer lambs on every Shabbat. As I'm not a Levitical Priest; those instructions weren't directed at me. They don't apply to me any more than the instructions which are directed specifically to women.

 

[JLB777]

There is no manna to cook; but YHWH makes other provisions for me. I cook them on the sixth day, in preparation for the seventh.

I never said there was manna to cook.
Do you cook on the sabbath?


JLB

 

[JLB777]

I don't offer lambs on every Shabbat. As I'm not a Levitical Priest; those instructions weren't directed at me. They don't apply to me any more than the instructions which are directed specifically to women.

These instructions were for the children of Israel, not just Levitical Priests.

These were Sabbath offerings.

Jesus nor His Apostles ever instructed the Church to offer animals as offerings on the Sabbath.


Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Command the children of Israel, and say to them, ‘My offering, My food for My offerings made by fire as a sweet aroma to Me, you shall be careful to offer to Me at their appointed time.’
“And you shall say to them, This is the offering made by fire which you shall offer to the LORD: two male lambs in their first year without blemish, day by day, as a regular burnt offering. The one lamb you shall offer in the morning, the other lamb you shall offer in the evening, and one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering mixed with one-fourth of a hin of pressed oil. It is a regular burnt offering which was ordained at Mount Sinai for a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD. And its drink offering shall be one-fourth of a hin for each lamb; in a holy place you shall pour out the drink to the LORD as an offering. The other lamb you shall offer in the evening; as the morning grain offering and its drink offering, you shall offer it as an offering made by fire, a sweet aroma to the LORD.
‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering.
Numbers 28:1-10



JLB

 

[JLB777]

There is no manna to cook; but YHWH makes other provisions for me. I cook them on the sixth day, in preparation for the seventh.



I don't work on Shabbat. It's easy.



I don't start fires on the Sabbath.



I don't gather firewood on the Sabbath; and it is unlawful to stone someone to death outside of the jurisidiction of the Judges of YHWH's Court.



I don't offer lambs on every Shabbat. As I'm not a Levitical Priest; those instructions weren't directed at me. They don't apply to me any more than the instructions which are directed specifically to women.

Maybe you could share from your own experience how the Church is to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant?


Also maybe you could offer some examples from the New Testament as to how the Apostles instructed the Church to observe the Sabbath.



JLB

 

[Bob S]

Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16:23-30

When did God release you old covenant law "keepers" from the obligation of staying in their own place? When did God release men from the sideburn commandment and do all of you have a railing around your roofs?

If you somehow are allowed go out of your place on the old covenant Sabbath what keeps you from being distracted by all of the worldly signs and all of the other bamboozlements? Remember Is 58:
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

These instructions were for the children of Israel, not just Levitical Priests.

These were Sabbath offerings.

Jesus nor His Apostles ever instructed the Church to offer animals as offerings on the Sabbath.


Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Command the children of Israel, and say to them, ‘My offering, My food for My offerings made by fire as a sweet aroma to Me, you shall be careful to offer to Me at their appointed time.’
“And you shall say to them, This is the offering made by fire which you shall offer to the LORD: two male lambs in their first year without blemish, day by day, as a regular burnt offering. The one lamb you shall offer in the morning, the other lamb you shall offer in the evening, and one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering mixed with one-fourth of a hin of pressed oil. It is a regular burnt offering which was ordained at Mount Sinai for a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD. And its drink offering shall be one-fourth of a hin for each lamb; in a holy place you shall pour out the drink to the LORD as an offering. The other lamb you shall offer in the evening; as the morning grain offering and its drink offering, you shall offer it as an offering made by fire, a sweet aroma to the LORD.
‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering.
Numbers 28:1-10JLB

We are in the new covenant now dear friend not the old covenant Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world - John 1:29; 36; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 10:2; 1 Coritnians 5:7 etc...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

When did God release you old covenant law "keepers" from the obligation of staying in their own place? When did God release men from the sideburn commandment and do all of you have a railing around your roofs?

If you somehow are allowed go out of your place on the old covenant Sabbath what keeps you from being distracted by all of the worldly signs and all of the other bamboozlements? Remember Is 58:
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

God's eternal law (10 commandments) from the old testament is the same God's law (10 commandments) in the new testament. God's law (10 commandments) give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken as shown in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. Shows us how love is expressed here in Matthew 5:17-20; 1 John 3:4-9; Matthew 22:36-40. Is a part of God's new covenant promise to be written on the heart by faith that works by love here; Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:10-11; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:1-4; 1 John 2:3-4, Is demonstrated in the lives of those who have been born again in the Spirit love and follow JESUS here *John 14:15; John 15:10; 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4 etc, etc... Need more new testament scriptures showing that Jesus and the Apostles taught God's law (10 commandments)? Here you go (linked). Do you need more new testament scriptures showing everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new testament? Here you are (linked). Perhaps you are mixed up with the Mosaic book (Exodus 24:7) of the laws for remission of sins that have been fulfilled in Jesus? See Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 (no more animal sacrifices).

Hope this helps

 

[JLB777]

We are in the new covenant now dear friend not the old covenant Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world - John 1:29; 36; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 10:2; 1 Coritnians 5:7 etc...

Jesus nor His Apostles ever instructed the Church to offer animals as offerings on the Sabbath.


That’s the point.


For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12


The law of Moses with all the commandments from animal sacrifices, priesthood, Temple worship, Sabbath requires have been abolished.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-15


So now, the question is, what does Jesus require for Sabbath observance from the Church if any.


If you believe Jesus requires Sabbath observance from the Church under the New Covenant, then please post the scriptures as to how Jesus taught the Church to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.



Remember you said we are under the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant, so don’t bother quoting scriptures from the Old Covenant.



Please post the scriptures as to how Jesus taught the Church to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.


JLB

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Jesus nor His Apostles ever instructed the Church to offer animals as offerings on the Sabbath.


That’s the point.


For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12


The law of Moses with all the commandments from animal sacrifices, priesthood, Temple worship, Sabbath requires have been abolished.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-15


So now, the question is, what does Jesus require for Sabbath observance from the Church if any.


If you believe Jesus requires Sabbath observance from the Church under the New Covenant, then please post the scriptures as to how Jesus taught the Church to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.



Remember you said we are under the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant, so don’t bother quoting scriptures from the Old Covenant.



Please post the scriptures as to how Jesus taught the Church to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.


JLB

Not really dear friend. The Mosiac laws for remission of sin are not Gods' eternal moral laws (10 commandments) which are the standard of sin and righteousness in the new covenant that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and righteousness when obeyed *Psalms 119:172. God's 4th commandment explains itself in Exodus 20:8-11. We are commanded by God to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy". It is a holy day of rest where no work is to be done that we are to set aside on the "seventh day of the week as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of Heaven and earth. Jesus taught it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath *Matthew 12:1-12; that he is Lord of the Sabbath *Mark 2:28 and that He made the Sabbath for all mankind in Mark 2:27. Jesus is our example *1 Peter 2:21-25 and his custom was to keep the Sabbath *Luke 4:16. Paul follows the thoughts of JESUS when he says "Therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath in Hebrews 4:9. By the way the new covenant does not delete the old covenant. In the days of JESUS and the Apostles the Old covenant scriptures were their bible. Nearly everything we have in the new covenant comes from the old testament scriptures *2 Timothy 3:16; 1 Corinthians 10:11; Matthew 4:4; Hebrews 8:10-12 (from Jeremiah 31:31-34). Together both the old and new testament scriptures make up the Word of God that testifies of JESUS and God's plan of salvation for all mankind. In regards to Ephesians 2:15. God's 10 commandments are not contained in ordinances. The Greek words used here is G1378 dogma δόγμα and means a civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law (e.g. circumcision, animal sacrifices for sin offerings, washings, and holy days) these laws were the enmity that separated the Jews and Gentiles believers and made God's salvation of the old covenant strictly Jewish. Jesus is our true sacrifice for sin and sins penalty (death - Romans 6:23) bringing reconciliation to both Jew and gentile believers. All are now one in Christ *Ephesians 2:11-13; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29; Colossians 3:11 and Romans 10:11-13.

Your welcome dear friend.

 

[Bob S]

I would like to know, from those who believe we are under the old covenant ten commandments, if what was written with God's own finger was anymore sanctified, magnified, justified, beautified, qualified or in anyway more blessed than the words that came out of God's mouth and written on parchment? The greatest of all commandments didn't come from the ones written with God's finger, it was spoken to Moses and he wrote it in the book. Tell us why God's finger is anymore sacred than the words from His mouth?

Tell us that Jesus commandment to love others as He loves us is any less sacred, sanctified, magnified, justified, beautified, qualified or in anyway more blessed than what God wrote with His finger?

Tell us, all you SDAs who tell us you "keep" the commandments of God and everyone else is lawless, why you can separate one commandment from another, casting aside the commands of the old covenant to keep the feasts and all of the other commands that would pertain to the layperson? You want to look like all of us sinners by avoiding to keep the command not to cut your sideburns. Are you not to be a special people like the Jews who were instructed not to cut that hair, especially since you tell us you are grafted into Israel? Shouldn't others see the difference in who is Holy from those of the World? Why do you avoid the old covenant command that would set you aside from all of us lawless ones headed to eternal damnation? Jews could not tell if another was circumcised, but they sure could tell by ones sideburns.

 

[HARK!]

Do you cook on the sabbath?

If you had read the post that you were responding to; you would have seen that I answered this question before you even asked.

I cook them on the sixth day, in preparation for the seventh.