Women Pastors?

[nolidad]

I use all of these things and more. My point is that some orthodox "true believers" think that if something isn't mentioned specifically in the Bible then it's not real or valid or whatever. They sit at their computers and create digital messages about how, if something isn't specifically written in the 66 "books", it doesn't exist. Really!

Well that is true for many things, but not all things. Believers have had their free will restored and God gave man a creative ability to discover and invent thinngs.

 

[nolidad]

The exact same word that is used to designate lay leaders in many churches(deacons) was used of Phoebe. Ecclesiology in the early church was ill defined, and the officers weren't necessarily leaders but servants of the church. Priscilla especially is an example because she appears to have been the leader, and there are some suggestions that she may even be the author of Hebrews.

Diakonons is an office and a term used of servants and serving without the office. Phoebe served teh church very well she was an avid diakonos- but that does not mean that she served in teh office of deacon. the same writer that commended Phoebe also wrote this as a qualification to be a diakonos or hold the office.

1 Timothy 3:8-12
King James Version

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.


I think Paul made it crystal clear which gender can hold the office of diakonos. Every one can be a diakonos in the church, but to hold the office- Paul made it clear.

 

[Philip_B]

Using vain philosophy to rationalize away the Scriptures is dangerous Pescador.
Paul's reasoning women shouldn't lead the local church: "For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." 1 Timothy 2: 13-14

Paul wrote to Timothy in a particular circumstance. I am not convinced that Paul intended to lay down a blanket rule on this subject. The argument invoked here is rationally weak. We do not allow children to excuse their misdeeds on The grounds that every one else was doing it, and the same goes for Adam.

When I look at how Paul spoke of women in other places, there is a balance. Perhaps more importantly is the way in which Jesus treated women.

A weak argument in the Bible is a witness to Paul's humanity.

 

[nolidad]

"Pastor" seems to be a fluid term at times. Pastors are shepherds to my knowledge. They are nurturing and protective at the same time. I'm not against women nurturing and protecting the more vulnerable in faith. So the term "pastor" does not phase me. But women leading a church bugs me--and I am a women who went to seminary--because of Scripture. My husband feels the same, so we shy away from such establishments.

Pastors have three titles in teh NT Epistles.

Bishop ( episkope)
shepherd (poimen)
and teacher (didaskolos)

Each shows a particular responsibility they have in overseeing their church.

 

[nolidad]

Paul wrote to Timothy in a particular circumstance. I am not convinced that Paul intended to lay down a blanket rule on this subject. The argument invoked here is rationally weak. We do not allow children to excuse their misdeeds on The grounds that every one else was doing it, and the same goes for Adam.

When I look at how Paul spoke of women in other places, there is a balance. Perhaps more importantly is the way in which Jesus treated women.

A weak argument in the Bible is a witness to Paul's humanity.

So what you are saying here is that God inspired Paul to write this book of the New Testament which is the guide book for the whole church throughout the age, and address what you consider to be just a local issue?

corinth had an issue with woman and Paul concluded that argument by saying he had no other teachings nor did the churches!

Also Paul concludes 1 Tim. 2 by pointing to teh creation and fall, not some local issue!

Also if it was local, Paul allowed women everywhere else to teach, be bishops and deacons and to usurp authority over men ??? What kind of problem did Timothy have where Paul had to be this strict? Remember Timothy was placed in charge of Asia Minor, so this would be a teaching that went throughout all Asia Minor!

 

[zoidar]

Infant baptism? Bible verse please? Infant dedication is good.

I won't say there is much clear support for infant baptism in scripture. The comparison with circumcision might be the best. The historical account of the Early Church could be of support. I will leave it for another thread.

 

[zippy2006]

I'm not sure I agree with the latter half, often it seems a contextual understanding of the passages often deals with issues readily. For example, recognizing that Paul is addressing women interrupting harmonic sessions with inane and rude questions when he said "women are to be silent," since such an injunction would have made no sense since the modern conception of "church" had not developed yet and the gathering spoken of hardly resembles a modern service at all. Or that the word translated "authority" should actually be rendered something more akin to "domineer" as it is not simply a matter of leadership but domination and links with Ephesus' Diana cult.

Yet it is very hard to argue that the texts are meant to be a thin matter of decorum when the arguments are grounded in deep realities such as the creation account, the law, and commands of the Lord (e.g. 1 Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 14).

A good question to ask when there is a conflict of interest is, "What would you have expected Paul to say in the event that he really did want to exclude women from leadership positions?" If references to the creation account, the law, and commands of the Lord are insufficient to demonstrate that what is being referring to is more than surface-level, then what would have sufficed?

 

[Fervent]

Diakonons is an office and a term used of servants and serving without the office. Phoebe served teh church very well she was an avid diakonos- but that does not mean that she served in teh office of deacon. the same writer that commended Phoebe also wrote this as a qualification to be a diakonos or hold the office.

1 Timothy 3:8-12
King James Version

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.


I think Paul made it crystal clear which gender can hold the office of diakonos. Every one can be a diakonos in the church, but to hold the office- Paul made it clear.

Verse 11, in the Greek, doesn't necessarily mean their wives and could actually be specifying "women" in general. There is no Biblical reason to distinguish between diakonos in regard to Phoebe and diakonos in 1 Timothy, and such is only done to explain away contrary evidence to a later tradition.

 

[Fervent]

Yet it is very hard to argue that the texts are meant to be a thin matter of decorum when the arguments are grounded in deep realities such as the creation account, the law, and commands of the Lord (e.g. 1 Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 14).

A good question to ask when there is a conflict of interest is, "What would you have expected Paul to say in the event that he really did want to exclude women from leadership positions?" If references to the creation account, the law, and commands of the Lord are insufficient to demonstrate that what is being referring to is more than surface-level, then what would have sufficed?

The creation account makes sense with the Diana cult entirely, since they taught that women were created first so Paul is setting their lie in contrast to the truth. The problem with asking a question such as you suggest is that it places an image of Paul as the decision rather than seeking the best fit for the context. I'm not saying the ones promoting female pastors/leaders are correct, but they cannot simply be discarded and there are serious errors of assumption in the traditional readings.

 

[Basil the Great]

Should women be pastors?
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to remain quiet.
1 timothy 2:12

Paul said this, not Jesus. Paul said several problematical statements. How about, "slaves be obedient to your Earthly masters"? How many here believe that the slaves in the American South in the 1700's and 1800's should have obeyed Paul's admonition to be obedient to their Earthly masters? How about "wives be submissive to your husbands"? We all know that abusive men through the ages used this verse to try and keep their wives in line. Paul said may wonderful things in his various letters. However, he also taught some things which were iffy at best, and in some cases, bad advice. Many of us believe that Paul's teaching on women not being pastors simply reflected the norms of his age and nothing more.

 

[coronawatching]

Paul wrote to Timothy in a particular circumstance. I am not convinced that Paul intended to lay down a blanket rule on this subject. The argument invoked here is rationally weak. We do not allow children to excuse their misdeeds on The grounds that every one else was doing it, and the same goes for Adam.

When I look at how Paul spoke of women in other places, there is a balance. Perhaps more importantly is the way in which Jesus treated women.

A weak argument in the Bible is a witness to Paul's humanity.

The fact that Paul pointed to the order of creation to emphasize his instructions showed that he wasn't just talking about an isolated case.

 

[Gregorikos]

Should women be pastors?
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to remain quiet.
1 timothy 2:12

Yes, of course they should if they are called, and God does call women to be pastors. The passage you cited is better translated:

A wife should learn quietly with complete submission. I don’t allow a wife to teach or to control her husband. Instead, she should be a quiet listener. Adam was formed first, and then Eve. 1 Timothy 2:11-13 (CEB)

 

[coronawatching]

Yes, of course they should if they are called, and God does call women to be pastors. The passage you cited is better translated:

A wife should learn quietly with complete submission. I don’t allow a wife to teach or to control her husband. Instead, she should be a quiet listener. Adam was formed first, and then Eve. 1 Timothy 2:11-13 (CEB)

According to the translation you furnished, if a woman should not teach her husband, how then could she be his pastor and the pastor of many 'husbands" in her congregation? Paul spoke about the order of creation in these passages. Twisting the meaning of scripture to make it line up with vain philosophy is dangerous.

 

[lismore]

Hello All. Just wondering. If the scriptures can be seen to support the idea of female leaders or at least not to rule out the idea, why has the practice of the church been over 1,900 years of not having female leaders in the church? Why did it just become an issue in the last two generations? God Bless

 

[pescador]

Using vain philosophy to rationalize away the Scriptures is dangerous Pescador.
Paul's reasoning women shouldn't lead the local church: "For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." 1 Timothy 2: 13-14

coronawatching, since you're new you might not be acquainted with the rules of forum conduct. A statement like "Using vain philosophy to rationalize away the Scriptures is dangerous" could get you into trouble.

 

[Philip_B]

So what you are saying here is that God inspired Paul to write this book of the New Testament which is the guide book for the whole church throughout the age, and address what you consider to be just a local issue?

corinth had an issue with woman and Paul concluded that argument by saying he had no other teachings nor did the churches!

Also Paul concludes 1 Tim. 2 by pointing to teh creation and fall, not some local issue!

Also if it was local, Paul allowed women everywhere else to teach, be bishops and deacons and to usurp authority over men ??? What kind of problem did Timothy have where Paul had to be this strict? Remember Timothy was placed in charge of Asia Minor, so this would be a teaching that went throughout all Asia Minor!

No, that is not what I said. I certainly agree that if the roll of women as expressed in some of the Greek religious express of the day had become normative in Christianity then the Church would be very different, and I don't mean for the better in this instance. Jesus approach to women was different to Paul, and I think a deep reading of John 4 is very helpful in understanding this.

Why did it just become an issue in the last two generations? God Bless

It actually has been and issue longer than that, and I think people like Joan of Arc, and Emma of Normandy, and indeed Mother Julian of Norwich have shown this out.

 

[Gregorikos]

According to the translation you furnished, if a woman should not teach her husband, how then could she be his pastor and the pastor of many 'husbands" in her congregation. Paul spoke about the order of creation in these passages. Twisting the meaning of scripture to make it line up with vain philosophy is dangerous.

I didn't twist any Scripture. That's the plain translation of the text.

and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness, 1 Timothy 2:12 (Young’s Literal Translation, 1862)

and I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness, 1 Tim 2:12 (Literal Standard Version 2020)

But Y suffre not a womman to teche, nether to haue lordschip on the hosebonde, but to be in silence. 1 Timothy 2:12 – Wycliffe Bible, Early Version (1382)

A married woman must learn in quiet and in perfect submission. 12 I do not permit a married woman to practice teaching or domineering over a husband; she must keep quiet. – 1 Tim 2:11-12 C. B. Williams, The New Testament: A Translation in the Language of the People (1937)

ἀνδρός her husband, though anarthrous . Max Zerwick, A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament. 4th Revised Edition – 1 Timothy 2:12

1 Tim 2:11 – Here we properly take “woman” to mean wife, as he reveals from his correlative phrase (v. 12) “to have authority over a man”that is, over her husband. As he calls the husband “man, ” so he calls the wife, “woman.” Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, Vol 28 on 1 Cor 7, 1 Cor 15, and Lectures on 1 Timothy. (1973) P 276.

 

[coronawatching]

coronawatching, since you're new you might not be acquainted with the rules of forum conduct. A statement like "Using vain philosophy to rationalize away the Scriptures is dangerous" could get you into trouble.

I will check out the conduct rules. Still though...

Just saw some of your posts. I saw similar conduct. Not sure why you are pointing out my conduct and not addressing my point.

 

[Archivist]

Hello All. Just wondering. If the scriptures can be seen to support the idea of female leaders or at least not to rule out the idea, why has the practice of the church been over 1,900 years of not having female leaders in the church? Why did it just become an issue in the last two generations? God Bless

The Society of Friends has had female ministers since the 1600s.

 

[coronawatching]

I didn't twist any Scripture. That's the plain translation of the text.

and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness, 1 Timothy 2:12 (Young’s Literal Translation, 1862)

and I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness, 1 Tim 2:12 (Literal Standard Version 2020)

But Y suffre not a womman to teche, nether to haue lordschip on the hosebonde, but to be in silence. 1 Timothy 2:12 – Wycliffe Bible, Early Version (1382)

A married woman must learn in quiet and in perfect submission. 12 I do not permit a married woman to practice teaching or domineering over a husband; she must keep quiet. – 1 Tim 2:11-12 C. B. Williams, The New Testament: A Translation in the Language of the People (1937)

ἀνδρός her husband, though anarthrous . Max Zerwick, A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament. 4th Revised Edition – 1 Timothy 2:12

1 Tim 2:11 – Here we properly take “woman” to mean wife, as he reveals from his correlative phrase (v. 12) “to have authority over a man”that is, over her husband. As he calls the husband “man, ” so he calls the wife, “woman.” Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, Vol 28 on 1 Cor 7, 1 Cor 15, and Lectures on 1 Timothy. (1973) P 276.

So women are called to pastor men and are called to give account for males that they will instruct in the Word? I don't think so.