Women Pastors?

[zoidar]

Should women be pastors?
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to remain quiet.
1 timothy 2:12

This is almost like the infant/believers baptism debate. I have my view, but accept what each church has decided on the subject.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I'm not in favour of undoing what the Church has always done in regards to it's leadership positions. Given the track record of Churches which have embraced female Pastors I have even less of a reason to entertain the Idea as a Christian who is decidedly conservative on most matters theological. Such Churches tend to deviate significantly from an authentic general orthodoxy, especially my own big O Orthodox tradition. So no.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I hope that those of you who are Americans and oppose women becoming pastors didn't vote. If you did, there is no Biblical precedent for voting, so you have violated tradition. Leaders were not chosen by popular vote in the Bible, so by your participation you have violated Scripture.

If you voted, you should also change your thinking to allow people to be pastors. If you don't then how do you explain your hypocrisy?

Is this an actual argument?

 

[Strong in Him]

Were any of those available in the first century? Women members of the Church were.

Hint: the answer is "no." Therefore, the comparison is invalid.

No, I don't believe it is.
Society was such then that women were just not thought able to do anything, other than produce, and care for, kids. For some, the idea of female ministers may have seemed just as foreign as flying in the air to get to another place.

It seems normal for us, but the sight of Jesus teaching, healing and talking to women must have been incredible. Women could be divorced at the drop of a hat, yet Jesus reminded people that men AND women were made in the image of God. Women were said to unreliable witnesses in court - yet a woman was chosen to be the first witness to the greatest event in history.
The apostles allowed women to pray with them in the upper room before Pentecost - in the synagogues women and men sat apart and would not have prayed together - and Paul had loyal women who worked alongside him as he preached the Good News.
It seems the church leadership were a little slower to entertain the idea of women ministers - isn't that always the way - but Jesus and the apostles had no problems with allowing them to proclaim the Good News.

 

[Anthony2019]

I belong to a denomination that accepts women as priests and their ordination has my full support.

If a woman came to Jesus and asked if they could serve him by becoming a minister, a preacher or teacher, I find it very hard to imagine that he would turn down their request. Can you imagine it? A woman coming to Jesus saying "Lord I love you and want to serve you. I want to reach out to others and teach them, look after them and proclaim the gospel. I want to be a pastor of your flock", and then Jesus saying "sorry, but you are not suitable, eligible or worthy enough to serve me in this way, because you are the wrong gender".

How can we become such blatant perpetrators of injustice, when our Lord has clearly commanded us through divine teaching, throughout the gospels and almost the entirety of the old and new testament, to care for those we have neglected: the oppressed, the widows, the orphans and foreigners. Jesus virtually excluded no-one who wanted to serve Him, in fact He always commended and welcomed it.

 

[pescador]

Neither I nor anyone else in this thread ever argued that they are. Why are you jumping to the conclusion that this belief (which as far as I can tell no one here even holds) is the reason for denying a female priesthood?



Indeed He did. We don't deny this in Orthodoxy, even as we still don't have 'women priests'. We recall this in the seventeenth and eighteenth parts of the Sunday Theotokia:

Christ our God has risen from the dead, He is the first-fruit of those who departed.

He appeared to Mary Magdalene, and spoke to her, and likewise said.

"Tell My brethren to proceed to Galilee, and there they will see Me."

So Mary came forth to the disciples and told them she had seen the Lord, and that He told her so.

Truly indeed it was good caring of the Saint Mary Magdalene.

She came to the grave on one of the Sabbath days, seeking earnestly the Resurrection of the Lord.

She saw the angel sitting on the stone, proclaiming and saying, "He is risen He is not here."

Wherefore we glorify Him, proclaiming and saying, "Blessed are You O my Lord Jesus, for You have risen and saved us."

+++

Also there's the fact that the Theotokos St. Mary is the greatest saint in all Christian churches and all Christian history. She's a woman, and we declare her to be more holy and honorable than even the angels, and all the patriarchs, and any other person, aside from obviously our Savior Whom she bore. Right now in the Coptic Orthodox Church we're in the middle of Kiahk, the Coptic month which is popularly dubbed "St. Mary's month" due to the special praises that we sing of her in the lead up to the Nativity:

But don't let what traditional churches actually do get in the way of your insane ravings about how times change and we shouldn't use computers or vote or else we're 'hypocrites' (Oh no! Someone I've never even heard of called me a hypocrite on the internet! I guess I better abandon 2,000 years of Christian orthodoxy! Sorry, Jesus! Sorry, St. Mary, the Mother of God! Sorry, St. Mark!), or whatever you're going to come up with next to sidestep the fact that you have no support for your tradition in all of Christian history before the last few decades in the western world.

You can believe whatever you want; it's not important to me. I'm not interested in your opinion of Theotokos St. Mary. There is NO REASON that women shouldn't be pastors (the subject of the OP).

When Jesus came and brought the New Covenant, traditional "churches" opposed Him. Talk about insane ravings! You can continue in your traditional beliefs, just like they did. Be my guest!

 

[pescador]

I belong to a denomination that accepts women as priests and their ordination has my full support.

If a woman came to Jesus and asked if they could serve him by becoming a minister, a preacher or teacher, I find it very hard to imagine that he would turn down their request. Can you imagine it? A woman coming to Jesus saying "Lord I love you and want to serve you. I want to reach out to others and teach them, look after them and proclaim the gospel. I want to be a pastor of your flock", and then Jesus saying "sorry, but you are not suitable, eligible or worthy enough to serve me in this way, because you are the wrong gender".

How can we become such blatant perpetrators of injustice, when our Lord has clearly commanded us through divine teaching, throughout the gospels and almost the entirety of the old and new testament, to care for those we have neglected: the oppressed, the widows, the orphans and foreigners. Jesus virtually excluded no-one who wanted to serve Him, in fact He always commended and welcomed it.

Great post! Everyone should read this and understand God's purpose. (Including you dzheremi!)

 

[pescador]

Show me where it's written in the Bible that we can't vote!

It doesn't say that you can't vote. It doesn't say a lot of things about how we live today. That is the problem with traditional churches and their orthodoxy. They are stuck in dogma created long ago that convinces them that they have the only true understanding of God and His ways (just like the Pharisees and Sadducees!).

As I said earlier, there is no reason that women shouldn't serve in any and every capacity in the Body of Christ.

 

[section9+1]

As best as I can see; no they shouldn't.

 

[Toro]

I dont believe in general a woman should lead.

However to point at only one point in scripture and base an entire theology upon that one verse or idea in scripture is spiritual suicide.

While as I said, in a general sense, I do not agree with female leaders..... I will not attempt to bind God's hands and will by using selective scriptures, especially when there is evidence in the Bible that proves God CAN and WILL use a woman to lead men, when the men refuse to be men.

A theme that is FAR to common in todays world...... when men fail to be men, He will CERTAINLY call women to be more manly and lead than the emasculated versions of men that our society tends to produce.

Just because I was born XY and my wife born XX (or is it tge other way around? I cant remember) does NOT nake me superior to her. It simply means, God has a role for me to fill, IF I do not fill that role, by my free will and refusal in weakness, then at some point, God could certainly call HER to fill that role, if I continue to lack backbone and refuse to be the man that God intented I be... He will certainly move on to someone else.

Men can't keep women down simply because they refuse to be the men they ought to be.

Certainly shouldn't cry when a woman fills the role the man was unable to do himself.

I for one believe more women are called today, maybe more than ever because men, arent men.

 

[pescador]

Well as the constitution of the church (the epistles), simply say obey governing authorities, when nations allow its citizens to vote, we can do so freely!

there is no biblical precedent for using a computer, watching TV, listening to a radio, driving a car flying in a plane,- so maybe you should stop using these tools as well if you and not be so nit picky.

I use all of these things and more. My point is that some orthodox "true believers" think that if something isn't mentioned specifically in the Bible then it's not real or valid or whatever. They sit at their computers and create digital messages about how, if something isn't specifically written in the 66 "books", it doesn't exist. Really!

 

[pescador]

I dont believe in general a woman should lead.

However to point at only one point in scripture and base an entire theology upon that one verse or idea in scripture is spiritual suicide.

While as I said, in a general sense, I do not agree with female leaders..... I will not attempt to bind God's hands and will by using selective scriptures, especially when there is evidence in the Bible that proves God CAN and WILL use a woman to lead men, when the men refuse to be men.

A theme that is FAR to common in todays world...... when men fail to be men, He will CERTAINLY call women to be more manly and lead than the emasculated versions of men that our society tends to produce.

Just because I was born XY and my wife born XX does NOT nake me superior to her. It simply means, God has a role for me to fill, IF I do not fill that role, by my free will and refusal in weakness, then at some point, God could certainly call HER to fill that role, if I continue to lack backbone and refuse to be the man that God intented I be... He will certainly move on to someone else.

Men can keep women down simply because they refuse to be the men they ought to be.

Certainly shouldn't cry when a woman fills the role the man was unable to do himself.

I for one believe more women are called today, maybe more than ever because men, arent men.

In your opinion, how does a man stop being a man? Surgery? And what is your definition of "a man"?

 

[Albion]

No, I don't believe it is.
Society was such then that women were just not thought able to do anything, other than produce, and care for, kids.

I'd say that's obviously an exaggeration, considering the list of names of women who held important positions in the early church other than as pastors. We've read those names (Phoebe, Priscilla, Deborah, Perpetua, etc.) and others in almost every thread that deals with this same subject.

So they were held up as important enough and responsible enough that this proves something about how highly they were regarded...and now you post a message that says the opposite about them.

 

[Toro]

In your opinion, how does a man stop being a man? Surgery? And what is your definition of "a man"?

Do you believe that just because someone can cause a woman to become pregnant that he is a father?

Same thing. You want to argue semantics I have better thibgs to do... if you are genuinely curious....

The difference between being a boy and a man are worlds apart... if you dont understand this, not sure what to tell you to convince you of the difference. Having male anatomy, makes someone male, doesnt make them a man.

A man, is someone that leads his family, is strong enough to be kind, patient, gentle and as close to the example of Jesus Christ as he can manage through the power of the Holy Spirit.

He will fail but does not seek to justify his sin. He will fall but he will get back up. He will not complain about the weakness of others, but will be strength to those in need.

Basically, read the Bibles definition and Gods purpose for a man... THAT is the definition I agree is a man.

 

[Fervent]

There is, however, a lack of women pastors in the early church. A total absence, in fact.

And women as pastors is the issue on this thread, not other positions of leadership and influence that the above named persons held.

We know little about the eccliesiology of the early church, and the office of "pastor" as we have now wasn't exactly how the elder's office functioned. Elders were functionaries, primarily engaging in apologetics and handling the communal resources. "Pastors" aren't meant to lead, they are meant to feed and to claim women can't participate is to say women cannot be servants.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

We know little about the eccliesiology of the early church, and the office of "pastor" as we have now wasn't exactly how the elder's office functioned. Elders were functionaries, primarily engaging in apologetics and handling the communal resources. "Pastors" aren't meant to lead, they are meant to feed and to claim women can't participate is to say women cannot be servants.

Can you point to one woman pastor/priest in the first thousand years of Christianity?

 

[Fervent]

Yes these were very noted women and written about for their great service to teh church. but not one of them held an office in the early church.

And being an OT judge of Israel is not the same as a pastor in the NT Church.

Perpetua was a 23 year old mom, who had not even been baptized yet. Noted for her strong faith to be a martyr, but not a teacher.

The exact same word that is used to designate lay leaders in many churches(deacons) was used of Phoebe. Ecclesiology in the early church was ill defined, and the officers weren't necessarily leaders but servants of the church. Priscilla especially is an example because she appears to have been the leader, and there are some suggestions that she may even be the author of Hebrews.

 

[Fervent]

Can you point to one woman pastor/priest in the first thousand years of Christianity?

The priest/pastor laity distinction is a late arrising phenomenon, most notably arising out of the churches conflict with the Donatists.

 

[Albion]

We know little about the eccliesiology of the early church, and the office of "pastor" as we have now wasn't exactly how the elder's office functioned.

We know enough to be able to decide this issue.

And we know enough just by checking the Biblical record. There is also the ordinary historical record which leads to the same conclusion.

 

[pescador]

Do you believe that just because someone can cause a woman to become pregnant that he is a father?

Same thing. You want to argue semantics I have better thibgs to do... if you are genuinely curious....

The difference between being a boy and a man are worlds apart... if you dont understand this, not sure what to tell you to convince you of the difference. Having male anatomy, makes someone male, doesnt make them a man.

A man, is someone that leads his family, is strong enough to be kind, patient, gentle and as close to the example of Jesus Christ as he can manage through the power of the Holy Spirit.

He will fail but does not seek to justify his sin. He will fall but he will get back up. He will not complain about the weakness of others, but will be strength to those in need.

Basically, read the Bibles definition and Gods purpose for a man... THAT is the definition I agree is a man.

Let us know when you understand the difference between being a man and acting in a masculine manner. A man is someone who is a man biologically. Period. Acting masculine is cultural. If you want to be a biblical "man", where are your robe, sandals, staff, livestock, etc?