Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[Ken-1122]

By the culture at large,

What culture encourages white people to get into the entertainment industry? Can you give an example of this?

the same as notions with hairstyles that white people can just utilize, but black people are, to an extent, discouraged from wearing because it's different for them (not sure why)

Can you give an example of this?

I don't think you can say that absolutely, I didn't make a broad statement, I was being provisional with the assessment that some have complained, particularly black actors, you can't say the black community is entirely united in their opinions

I’m saying if your claim were true, you would see a lot of black people complaining about those actors playing insulting roles. This just is not the case. If you disagree, provide a few examples of people complaining about this.

People can and are angry and abusive to white people based on that anger, but white people are not in the same position historically as people of color,

As far as people of color, white is just as much of a color as black, or brown.
As far as your point, black and brown people are not in the same position historically as (so called) people of color either

You don't think there are people that are fired because of such things

No I don’t. Have you ever heard of this happening?

or held to task for them even if they aren't firable? I'm not that on the trending pulse, but I feel like you live under a rock if you insist there are no social consequences, which are distinct from legal consequences or such.

If I recall correctly, Elizabeth Warren had a tiny fraction of Native American blood in her family, but that didn’t prevent her from claiming she was part Native American while running for President. Did she receive any social consequences for this? No; as a matter of fact Donald Trump received more negative press by calling her “Pocahontas” than she received by making such a ridicules claim while in pursuit of the highest office of the land

 

[muichimotsu]

What culture encourages white people to get into the entertainment industry? Can you give an example of this?

The same culture that promotes white actors more often than black even when given the opportunity otherwise

Can you give an example of this?

Cornrows come immediately to mind, or dreadlocks, as if black people wearing them is, to an extent, seen as somehow negative (I don't know why), while white people doing the same thing is seen as cool, like celebrities who have done it (easy google search)

I’m saying if your claim were true, you would see a lot of black people complaining about those actors playing insulting roles. This just is not the case. If you disagree, provide a few examples of people complaining about this.

No, it doesn't have to be a lot to be a complaint, you're expecting everyone to not be hesitant to do so because of a culture that still marginalizes black people while also saying they're accepting out the other side of their mouth

As far as people of color, white is just as much of a color as black, or brown.
As far as your point, black and brown people are not in the same position historically as (so called) people of color either

You're really just trying to defend white people more and I don't want to use that term reserved for black people that try to do that. I trust you know what I mean?

So you're trying to say black and brown are not people of color? The use of that is based on the white glorifying attitude where non whites were called "colored". Or have you never heard that as a slur?

No I don’t. Have you ever heard of this happening?

I don't think I claimed that absolutely, I said it was a possibility. If anything, people are usually fired for racist rants and such that are on camera, not just doing something like blackface at a Halloween party, that's just shaming by society, which is sufficient

If I recall correctly, Elizabeth Warren had a tiny fraction of Native American blood in her family, but that didn’t prevent her from claiming she was part Native American while running for President. Did she receive any social consequences for this? No; as a matter of fact Donald Trump received more negative press by calling her “Pocahontas” than she received by making such a ridicules claim while in pursuit of the highest office of the land

Because that's trivializing Native Americans by referring to her as such and she has recanted that claim, she has the humility to admit she was wrong, Trump has no such attitude about anything, including with the presidential election, to say nothing of a pandemic he handled as well as I'd handle herding ducks (which is terribly)

So yeah, she has received social consequences, because people called her out on it and she admitted she was wrong

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...27df76-2962-11e9-984d-9b8fba003e81_story.html

 

[Ken-1122]

The same culture that promotes white actors more often than black even when given the opportunity otherwise

And what culture is that?

Cornrows come immediately to mind, or dreadlocks, as if black people wearing them is, to an extent, seen as somehow negative (I don't know why), while white people doing the same thing is seen as cool, like celebrities who have done it (easy google search)

I think you’ve got that backwards; I have seen far more hostile directed at white people wearing cornrows and dreadlocks than black people for wearing them. Below are a few examples of hostility directed towards white people with such hair styles.

Can you provide a few examples of hostility towards black people for such styles?

No, it doesn't have to be a lot to be a complaint,

If what you said were true, there would be a lot of complaints; I bet you couldn’t even provide one example; could ya?

You're really just trying to defend white people more and I don't want to use that term reserved for black people that try to do that. I trust you know what I mean?

So you're trying to say black and brown are not people of color? The use of that is based on the white glorifying attitude where non whites were called "colored". Or have you never heard that as a slur?

I personally have a problem with the term “people of color” because the term was born from bigotry. It was originally coined back in the late 1700’s by racist white people to separate themselves from black and brown people, it eventually fell out of fashion till the 1970’s when black and brown bigots brought the term back in an effort to unite themselves against white people. Any term born of hatred and bigotry is a term I have a problem with.

I don't think I claimed that absolutely, I said it was a possibility.

No; you didn’t use the word “possibility”.

Because that's trivializing Native Americans by referring to her as such and she has recanted that claim, she has the humility to admit she was wrong,

Again; if what you said were true, she would not have tried to claim to be Native American in the first place because it would have hurt her chances of becoming president. The reason this practically 100% white lady tried to claim another race is because it would have helped her chances of being president, and this white privilege you speak of is not as much of a benefit that you think it is.

 

[muichimotsu]

And what culture is that?

American culture in the historical trend of glorifying white people

I think you’ve got that backwards; I have seen far more hostile directed at white people wearing cornrows and dreadlocks than black people for wearing them. Below are a few examples of hostility directed towards white people with such hair styles.

I mean, if you want to cherry pick, sure, that's not what I was saying with criticism of black people in wearing it, because a negative view can just suggest an unfair standard of what beauty is, even with the "black is beautiful" movement that was meant to counter those ideas

Can you provide a few examples of hostility towards black people for such styles?

I don't have to, because you're putting words in my mouth, I never said hostility, a specific form of negativity that I did not entail with the double standard

If what you said were true, there would be a lot of complaints; I bet you couldn’t even provide one example; could ya?

Again, you're confusing complaints with a biased view that white people still tend to have in regards to particular hairstyles that are common with black people, the kind of white glorification I'm talking about, where black people are still othered.

I personally have a problem with the term “people of color” because the term was born from bigotry. It was originally coined back in the late 1700’s by racist white people to separate themselves from black and brown people, it eventually fell out of fashion till the 1970’s when black and brown bigots brought the term back in an effort to unite themselves against white people. Any term born of hatred and bigotry is a term I have a problem with.

Pretty sure they called them "colored", not people of color, which seems to ahve origins in French with regards to mixed race people, not in a derogatory manner. But in English, there is a potential overlap, I'll accept, with colored as a racial slur against black people and people of color, which would be intended as a distinction

Interpreting it as racist is not the same as demonstrating that it was used that way. And no, POC is not used in the weaponized fashion you claim it is with no evidence beyond painting a group in that manner. There are objections these days in the consideration of BLM, that it might be a form of black erasure, but that's a separate issue from whether the expression is necessarily racist or bigoted.

When society regards whiteness as the norm and it pretty conclusively did for centuries, that isn't just going to go away with technological advances and society moving forward in some form or fashion, it's still going to be there

The Perils of “People of Color”

No; you didn’t use the word “possibility”.

If you don't think people are fired because of something very specfic like dressing in black face, fine, I didn't say it was absolutely the case.

Again; if what you said were true, she would not have tried to claim to be Native American in the first place because it would have hurt her chances of becoming president. The reason this practically 100% white lady tried to claim another race is because it would have helped her chances of being president, and this white privilege you speak of is not as much of a benefit that you think it is.

That's dishonestly assuming she did that purely for that reason and not because she genuinely believed she was and was making an attempt at solidarity. You're ascribing malicious intent here instead of accepting that it was out of ignorance.

No one's 100% white, I'm pretty sure any white person will find what is DNA that has markers indicative of African descent, given that, if I'm not mistaken, all humans can trace their ancestry, or certainly most of us, to African ancestors

Actually it is a benefit, because there is the benefit of the doubt, white people aren't treated the same for the same issues where people of color would do the same thing. Rachel Dolezal is another good example, it was seemingly years before anyone called her out on that because she was a white person claiming she was black

 

[NBB]

This cultural appopriation thing is stupid and i don't know why people give credit to the people who believes in this.
It would seem that if there is enough outrage from some wackos everything can become offensive.

 

[Ken-1122]

American culture in the historical trend of glorifying white people

Oh! I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but that culture doesn’t exist anymore, it died a long time ago. There might be a few individuals lingering around with those attitudes, but as far as anything that could be called an american culture like that; no more.

I mean, if you want to cherry pick, sure, that's not what I was saying with criticism of black people in wearing it, because a negative view can just suggest an unfair standard of what beauty is,

There is no single American standard; everybody has their own individual standard for what is beautiful.

I don't have to, because you're putting words in my mouth, I never said hostility, a specific form of negativity that I did not entail with the double standard

Ahh so you can provide no examples to support your claim. Now why am I not surprised???

Again, you're confusing complaints with a biased view that white people still tend to have in regards to particular hairstyles that are common with black people,

No, I’m confusing you making a claim with your ability to support said claim with something other than your word. I know; I should know better by now; right?

That's dishonestly assuming she did that purely for that reason and not because she genuinely believed she was and was making an attempt at solidarity. You're ascribing malicious intent here instead of accepting that it was out of ignorance.

No I’m not ascribing malicious intent. I personally believe she actually thought she was as she claimed to be. But if what you said were true, her family would not have started that false rumor that they were anything other than white, and she would not have let anybody know she was of mixed heritage because she would have thought it would have ruined her chances of being President.

 

[muichimotsu]

Oh! I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but that culture doesn’t exist anymore, it died a long time ago. There might be a few individuals lingering around with those attitudes, but as far as anything that could be called an american culture like that; no more.

Methinks you're confusing what I mean by glorifying white people. I'm not saying white supremacy, I'm saying an implicit systemic aspect that isn't possessing of agency that creates biases in people's perspective that will push them to favor white perspectives over people of color

There is no single American standard; everybody has their own individual standard for what is beautiful.

I didn't reduce it to a purely cultural standard, but you can't claim it is purely nature and there is no nurture aspect to a person's standards of beauty

Ahh so you can provide no examples to support your claim. Now why am I not surprised???

No, because I'm not buying into your leading question that wasn't what I claimed to begin with. Try again

No, I’m confusing you making a claim with your ability to support said claim with something other than your word. I know; I should know better by now; right?

If you're only taking my claims, then you're not doing your part of the discussion and *gasp* researching to try and show a counterpoint. It's like you're just relying on a strawman you keep formulating of my positions to tear down and take no responsibility yourself, because you don't regard this as a dialogue

No I’m not ascribing malicious intent. I personally believe she actually thought she was as she claimed to be. But if what you said were true, her family would not have started that false rumor that they were anything other than white, and she would not have let anybody know she was of mixed heritage because she would have thought it would have ruined her chances of being President.

Again, you're suggesting malicious intent and agency behind this from someone instead of it just being a mistake on her part, overcomplicating the whole scenario. Her chances of being nominated were based on various factors, reducing it to race is disingenuous and intentionally muddying the waters

 

[Ken-1122]

Methinks you're confusing what I mean by glorifying white people. I'm not saying white supremacy, I'm saying an implicit systemic aspect that isn't possessing of agency that creates biases in people's perspective that will push them to favor white perspectives over people of color

No need to repeat, I understand what you are saying. I telling you that culture does not exist anymore.

I didn't reduce it to a purely cultural standard, but you can't claim it is purely nature and there is no nurture aspect to a person's standards of beauty

And you can’t claim there is more negativity directed at black people wearing cornrows and dreadlocks, than when white people wear them; which is what I was objecting to.

If you're only taking my claims, then you're not doing your part of the discussion and *gasp* researching to try and show a counterpoint. It's like you're just relying on a strawman you keep formulating of my positions to tear down and take no responsibility yourself, because you don't regard this as a dialogue

No, you just keep making empty claims, and sometimes I cannot prove them wrong, so I ask you to support your claim with an outside source. Why do you have a problem with that?

 

[muichimotsu]

No need to repeat, I understand what you are saying. I telling you that culture does not exist anymore.

You can keep saying it, that doesn't make it so. Can you substantiate this universal negative?

And you can’t claim there is more negativity directed at black people wearing cornrows and dreadlocks, than when white people wear them; which is what I was objecting to.

You're assuming negativity = hostility, when it doesn't, the latter is a variation of the former

No, you just keep making empty claims, and sometimes I cannot prove them wrong, so I ask you to support your claim with an outside source. Why do you have a problem with that?

When this is about a culture that, by your own admission, marginalized black people and other minorities for centuries, why is it so impossible for you to consider that systemically, this is something that will affect people even if it isn't something that possesses agency?

 

[Ken-1122]

You can keep saying it, that doesn't make it so. Can you substantiate this universal negative?

No, but if it did exist, I'm sure you would have pointed it out by now.

You're assuming negativity = hostility,

No I am not.

When this is about a culture that, by your own admission, marginalized black people and other minorities for centuries, why is it so impossible for you to consider that systemically, this is something that will affect people even if it isn't something that possesses agency?

The culture has changed over the years.

 

[muichimotsu]

No, but if it did exist, I'm sure you would have pointed it out by now.

And we're back to you assuming all racism has to be explicit, which is patently absurd and goalpost shifting on its face

No I am not

Then you'd understand my claim is not that there is hostility, but a double standard in regards to black people wearing certain hairstyles versus white people doing the same thing and it being normalized differently

The culture has changed over the years.

That doesn't work in the way you appear to think it does, the changes are superficial at best, people just acting like the progress we have in certain areas means that the culture itself has changed rather than cultural regard based on legislation, etc, which is like expecting white nationalists to just up and disappear once civil rights were given to black people in the 60s, rather than them just trying to rebrand themselves like Richard Spencer and the like, claiming black people should be grateful to white supremacy.

 

[Ken-1122]

Then you'd understand my claim is not that there is hostility, but a double standard in regards to black people wearing certain hairstyles versus white people doing the same thing and it being normalized differently

I am suggesting your claim is upside down and backwards (as wrong as you could possibly get) I’m saying not only is there a double standard against whites having dreadlocks vs blacks having them (considered normal for blacks to have them, but abnormal for whites), but there is ALSO a hostility against white people having them; and I provided outside sources to support my case. Thus far you’ve provided nothing, so you will have to excuse me if I neglect to take your claim seriously.

That doesn't work in the way you appear to think it does, the changes are superficial at best, people just acting like the progress we have in certain areas means that the culture itself has changed rather than cultural regard based on legislation, etc,

No, I agree much of the change in today’s culture is the result of legislation imposed upon previous cultures.

 

[muichimotsu]

I am suggesting your claim is upside down and backwards (as wrong as you could possibly get) I’m saying not only is there a double standard against whites having dreadlocks vs blacks having them (considered normal for blacks to have them, but abnormal for whites), but there is ALSO a hostility against white people having them; and I provided outside sources to support my case. Thus far you’ve provided nothing, so you will have to excuse me if I neglect to take your claim seriously.

If you think you have anything that substantial to support the double standard you claim exists (which might be a variable based on relative socioeconomic position, a more affluent white person able to get away with it, or someone that's a celebrity two examples that come to mind)

You provided anecdotal evidence at best, your perspective and those of others is not necessarily justified and isn't indicative of society at large because, as I already noted, it's an anecdotal claim, not representing anything substantive for statistical significance.

Here's a few links for a counter example, even if I'll admit this isnt' going to be absolutely representative, as you seemed to imply with 3 examples that are reflective of a particular attitude that the hairstyle is necessarily an ethnic thing versus a racial thing, since those are 2 different qualities

Amandla Stenberg Tackles "Double Standard" of Beauty for Black vs. White Women - E! Online

Six non-black women on why they wear box braids despite the controversy

When Non-Black Minorities Wear Cornrows And Locs, Is It Appropriation?

At the core is a form of cultural appropriation that's severed from the ethnic aspects that may have come about and is, if nothing else, demeaning to black people in the same way Orientalism is demeaning to Southeast Asians, even if both are meant to be "positive" in intent

No, I agree much of the change in today’s culture is the result of legislation imposed upon previous cultures.

That doesn't erase the prior cultural norms at all, they just become more recalcitrant (see Confederate sympathizers and apologists for just one example in terms of the South almost 150 years after the Civil War ended)

 

[Ken-1122]

If you think you have anything that substantial to support the double standard you claim exists (which might be a variable based on relative socioeconomic position, a more affluent white person able to get away with it, or someone that's a celebrity two examples that come to mind)

You provided anecdotal evidence at best, your perspective and those of others is not necessarily justified and isn't indicative of society at large because, as I already noted, it's an anecdotal claim, not representing anything substantive for statistical significance.

Here's a few links for a counter example, even if I'll admit this isnt' going to be absolutely representative, as you seemed to imply with 3 examples that are reflective of a particular attitude that the hairstyle is necessarily an ethnic thing versus a racial thing, since those are 2 different qualities

Amandla Stenberg Tackles "Double Standard" of Beauty for Black vs. White Women - E! Online

Six non-black women on why they wear box braids despite the controversy

When Non-Black Minorities Wear Cornrows And Locs, Is It Appropriation?

None of your links supported your claim that white people wearing dreads is considered acceptable and black people wearing dreads are seen as unacceptable. Care to try again?

That doesn't erase the prior cultural norms at all,

Actually it does. History has shown time and time again that when the legal system requires oppressed people to be treated equally, this has an effect on how society will begin to see those previously oppressed people.

 

[coffee4u]

None of your links supported your claim that white people wearing dreads is considered acceptable and black people wearing dreads are seen as unacceptable. Care to try again?

I am part of the gaming community and even there if someone places dreads on a white character there will be backlash and these are pixels

 

[Ken-1122]

I am part of the gaming community and even there if someone places dreads on a white character there will be backlash and these are pixels

Yeah; try telling that to Muichimotsu.
It doesn’t matter what type of hair you have, if you refrain from combing or brushing it, the hair will naturally turn into dreadlocks (free forming dreads). This happens with black hair, white hair, any type of hair. For a black person to tell a white person that it is okay for blacks to allow a natural occurrence to happen to their hair, but it is not okay for the white person to allow the same natural occurrence to happen to theirs, is absurd and should not be taken seriously

 

[Strathos]

Yeah; try telling that to Muichimotsu.
It doesn’t matter what type of hair you have, if you refrain from combing or brushing it, the hair will naturally turn into dreadlocks (free forming dreads). This happens with black hair, white hair, any type of hair.

Never happened to me.

 

[muichimotsu]

None of your links supported your claim that white people wearing dreads is considered acceptable and black people wearing dreads are seen as unacceptable. Care to try again?

The problem is appropriation of that idea in a way that doesn't give fair acknowledgement to black women in regards to dreads as something that, while not necessarily exclusive to African cultures, may be more common, yet it is now being utilized in a way that tokenizes and others black people as exotic, in the same way as doing so with Southeast Asian things through Orientalism.

Actually it does. History has shown time and time again that when the legal system requires oppressed people to be treated equally, this has an effect on how society will begin to see those previously oppressed people.

An effect is not the same as something that is marked enough to reflect anything more than superficial lipservice to the idea: people's hearts are not going to change, their social biases are not going to change, only particular behaviors and expressions will change, like how people don't call black people the n word so much (though apparently it's still done even as recently as this year or even before Trump was elected), they prefer to just saying they're thugs or other ideas that don't seem racist at first glance, but are, in the same vein as ghetto.

 

[muichimotsu]

Yeah; try telling that to Muichimotsu.
It doesn’t matter what type of hair you have, if you refrain from combing or brushing it, the hair will naturally turn into dreadlocks (free forming dreads). This happens with black hair, white hair, any type of hair. For a black person to tell a white person that it is okay for blacks to allow a natural occurrence to happen to their hair, but it is not okay for the white person to allow the same natural occurrence to happen to theirs, is absurd and should not be taken seriously

You seem to think all hair works the same, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case given the variations that exist for the quality of hair as straight, curly, wavy, oily, dry, etc.

You assume it's done naturally when that's not all the instances to begin with, I brought up box braids in my links, did you forget that?

 

[Ken-1122]

The problem is appropriation of that idea in a way that doesn't give fair acknowledgement to black women in regards to dreads as something that, while not necessarily exclusive to African cultures, may be more common,

Nobody needs to give acknowledgment to black women in regards to dreads; because black women have no right to claim dreads as their own. You seem to have this idea that Africa is one country with one culture; it is not. Africa is a continent consisting of 54 separate nations; each nation with different cultures and though some of those nations have a culture of dreadlocks, most don’t. For a black man/woman born in the USA to wear dreadlocks is cultural appropriating to the same extent as a white man/woman born in the USA wearing dreadlocks. If you are not from any of those specific African nations where dreadlocks is a historic part of their culture, using your logic; you are cultural appropriating regardless of your skin color. It is the ultimate of ignorance and hypocrisy for an African American with dreadlocks to point the finger at a white person with dreadlocks and cry foul

An effect is not the same as something that is marked enough to reflect anything more than superficial lipservice to the idea: people's hearts are not going to change, their social biases are not going to change, only particular behaviors and expressions will change

Many people do change and for those who don’t, their children will change. We see this in how attitudes towards blacks, women, gays, etc. have changed from one generation to the next.