Abomination of Desolation in Luke?

BABerean2

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No to the first question. Jesus will obviously appear magnified compared to them here on earth.

And 45 days is not in the text, but is the difference between 1290 days and the 1335th day.

You bring up such petty issues.


When someone cobbles scriptures together from various parts of the Bible in an attempt to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work, the rest of us would not consider it a "petty issue".


When someone ignores the time period when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews in Romans 1:16 as an attempt to produce a future 70th week of Daniel, the rest of us would not consider it a "petty" issue.


When someone comes up with an interpretation of Daniel 9:27 and can find no other person on the planet who agrees with them, the rest of us would not consider it a "petty" issue.


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Douggg

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When someone cobbles scriptures together from various parts of the Bible in an attempt to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work, the rest of us would not consider it a "petty issue".


When someone ignores the time period when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews in Romans 1:16 as an attempt to produce a future 70th week of Daniel, the rest of us would not consider it a "petty" issue.


When someone comes up with an interpretation of Daniel 9:27 and can find no other person on the planet who agrees with them, the rest of us would not consider it a "petty" issue.
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BaB2, you have just made some erroneous choices in what you believe - not realizing the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework of the end times, Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to earth v21-29.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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How do you know that the seven thunders didn't contain information about the rapture ?

The rapture takes place on a day you think not. If you think the rapture takes place on the day that Jesus descends to earth, then it will not be that day.
Again, your explanation is not convincing whatsoever. There would be no reason at all to not include a description of the chaos and destruction that would result from a pre-second coming any time rapture somewhere in scripture, but it's nowhere to be found. If you can think of a good reason for that, then please let me know what it is.
 
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Douggg

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Again, your explanation is not convincing whatsoever. There would be no reason at all to not include a description of the chaos and destruction that would result from a pre-second coming any time rapture somewhere in scripture, but it's nowhere to be found. If you can think of a good reason for that, then please let me know what it is.
So you are saying there is nothing in the bible that indicates exactly when the rapture will take place. And you want me to prove otherwise? That makes no sense.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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So you are saying there is nothing in the bible that indicates exactly when the rapture will take place. And you want me to prove otherwise? That makes no sense.
That isn't what I'm saying and you know it. You didn't act confused before about what I'm saying, so why now? Just trying to distract from the fact that you have no answer?

I'm saying there isn't anything describing the after effects of a pre-second coming any time rapture. Why not? You haven't come up with a viable explanation so far.
 
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Davy

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Luke was referring specifically to Daniel's prophecies, which use the same terminology, and harmonize with Daniel's elucidation of the abomination.

You're suffering from "interpretation by imagination".

Are you denying that the Judaean Christians fled prior to 70 AD?

Nothing to do with "false Messiah" or "antichrist's armies" or "the day of Christ's coming" or anything else that you've eisegeted.

No, Apostle Luke did not use the same terminology of the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus did in Matthew and Mark's versions of Christ's Olivet discourse.

That's why you do not find the following statement in red below in Luke's version...

Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
KJV


What does that mean about your truthfulness? It means you are not telling the truth about the Luke Scripture.

As for the history in 70 A.D., per the Jewish historian Josephus, sure there were Jews that fled Judea when the Roman army under Titus came to sack Jerusalem and the temple.

But there was no "abomination of desolation" event of an idol setup in false worship inside the temple by the Romans in 70 A.D., which is what the Daniel prophecy in Daniel 11 is specifically about, and is what Jesus was quoting.

The Daniel "place the abomination that maketh desolate" requires a STANDING JEWISH TEMPLE with an idol abomination setup in it for false worship, NOT a destroyed temple, which the temple in 70 A.D. burned down before the Romans could get control of it!

So there again, what does you hiding these facts of history, and about the Book of Daniel prophecy about the "abomination of desolation" mean for your truthfulness? It means you are not very truthful.

And then your last statement that those events in Christ's Olivet discourse have nothing to do with the coming of a "false Messiah", shows even great untruthfulness on your part! The Matthew 24:23-26 verses are specifically about Christ's warning of a pseudo-Christ appearing in Jerusalem for the end, working great signs and wonders that IF it were possible, will deceive even His very elect!

Your credibility just flew quickly out the window with that last statement of yours.
 
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jgr

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No, Apostle Luke did not use the same terminology of the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus did in Matthew and Mark's versions of Christ's Olivet discourse.

All three accounts include the word "desolation", and Luke under Holy Spirit inspiration elucidates the meaning of "abomination" to assist receptive readers through the centuries to understand the events being described.

Nothwithstanding dispensational futurism's obdurate denial and rejection of said descriptions.

What does that mean about your truthfulness? It means you are not telling the truth about the Luke Scripture.

It means that the Holy Spirit and Luke were telling the truth about their Scripture.

As for the history in 70 A.D., per the Jewish historian Josephus, sure there were Jews that fled Judea when the Roman army under Titus came to sack Jerusalem and the temple.

Unsuprising, your history is flawed. The Christians fled in 66 AD after Cestius Gallus withdrew, affording them the opportunity, four years before Titus invaded.

But of course, Scripture fulfilled in history is anathema to dispensational futurism's fantasies.

But there was no "abomination of desolation" event of an idol setup in false worship inside the temple by the Romans in 70 A.D., which is what the Daniel prophecy in Daniel 11 is specifically about, and is what Jesus was quoting.

Nothing to do with an idol in the temple. Luke identifies the abomination as the Roman armies, which visited desolation upon Jerusalem and Judaea.

Nothing to do with Daniel 11. Jesus was referencing Daniel 9:26-27, in which there are three separate references to the events of 70 AD.

The Daniel "place the abomination that maketh desolate" requires a STANDING JEWISH TEMPLE with an idol abomination setup in it for false worship, NOT a destroyed temple, which the temple in 70 A.D. burned down before the Romans could get control of it!

Nothing to do with any of that, as already explained.

So there again, what does you hiding these facts of history, and about the Book of Daniel prophecy about the "abomination of desolation" mean for your truthfulness? It means you are not very truthful.

It means that the Holy Spirit and Luke are inerrantly truthful.

And then your last statement that those events in Christ's Olivet discourse have nothing to do with the coming of a "false Messiah", shows even great untruthfulness on your part! The Matthew 24:23-26 verses are specifically about Christ's warning of a pseudo-Christ appearing in Jerusalem for the end, working great signs and wonders that IF it were possible, will deceive even His very elect!

Historical fact has an annoying way of exposing futurized fallacy.

Ralph Woodrow, Great Prophecies of the Bible

According to Josephus, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet.

These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."

Your credibility just flew quickly out the window with that last statement of yours.

The credibilities of the Holy Spirit and Luke are completely unscathed.
 
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Timtofly

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Your statement above is correct.

However, because Christ comes as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know there is more than one vision of the Second Coming in the Book of Revelation.
Except the 6th Seal is not the battle of Armageddon.
 
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Davy

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All three accounts include the word "desolation", ....

Only the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions contain the phrase "abomination of desolation" quoted from the Book of Daniel.

The Luke 21 version does not.

The word "desolation" that appears in the Luke 21 version is in a different context, no abomination associated with it. It is used in relation to the Antichrist's armies surrounding Jerusalem and God's destruction there on the last day...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

KJV



The placing of the "abomination that maketh desolate" is about the below event by the "vile person" in Daniel 11 ...

Dan 11:31-37
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.


32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.


36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.


37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

KJV


That Daniel 11 Scripture is about the "man of sin" that Apostle Paul warned of in 2 Thessalonians 2. He must first come to Jerusalem and sit in a standing temple and exalt himself in place of God, and over all that is worshiped or called God, prior to Christ's coming.
 
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BABerean2

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Except the 6th Seal is not the battle of Armageddon.

The same characters below in chapter 6, and also in chapter 19 prove you are wrong.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


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BABerean2

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Only the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions contain the phrase "abomination of desolation" quoted from the Book of Daniel.

The Luke 21 version does not.

The word "desolation" that appears in the Luke 21 version is in a different context, no abomination associated with it. It is used in relation to the Antichrist's armies surrounding Jerusalem and God's destruction there on the last day...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

KJV



The placing of the "abomination that maketh desolate" is about the below event by the "vile person" in Daniel 11 ...

Dan 11:31-37
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.


32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.


36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.


37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

KJV


That Daniel 11 Scripture is about the "man of sin" that Apostle Paul warned of in 2 Thessalonians 2. He must first come to Jerusalem and sit in a standing temple and exalt himself in place of God, and over all that is worshiped or called God, prior to Christ's coming.


Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 
Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )


Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 


Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )


Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 


Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )


Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)


Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 
Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 
Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 
Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 
Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 
Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 
(Look at the reference to Hanukkah in John 10:22, if you want to know what the Jews of Jesus time understood about Antiochus Ephiphanes attacking the city during 167 BC, when his forces killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the sacrifices. Those two things also happened during 70AD.)


Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (See also Luke 23:28-31.) 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )


Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ. Paul also referred to this time period in Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.)


The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 


Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 


Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.



John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.



Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

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Spiritual Jew

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Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 
Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )


Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 


Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )


Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 


Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )


Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)


Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 
Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 
Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 
Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 
Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 
Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 
(Look at the reference to Hanukkah in John 10:22, if you want to know what the Jews of Jesus time understood about Antiochus Ephiphanes attacking the city during 167 BC, when his forces killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the sacrifices. Those two things also happened during 70AD.)


Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (See also Luke 23:28-31.) 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )


Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ. Paul also referred to this time period in Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.)


The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 


Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 


Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.



John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.



Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
This is great. Very well done. I really enjoyed reading this post.

Both preterists and futurists miss that the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29 is not the same tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:15-22. Why do they miss this? Because they fail to look at Luke 21 for added information and understanding of the Olivet Discourse. We need to compare them directly verse by verse as you did here. Mark 13 also has a bit of additional info about the Olivet Discourse not included in Matthew 24 and that gets overlooked as well.

The tribulation of Matthew 24:15-22 relates to the destruction of the temple buildings that Jesus talked about. Luke clarified in Luke 21:20-24 that the city itself would be attacked and made desolate and not just the temple buildings. That is exactly what is indicated in Daniel 9:26 which says that both the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed.

As you indicated, and as so many people miss, following that tribulation period that occurred around 70 AD, there would be "the times of the Gentiles" during which the Jews have been "led away captive into all nations" and during which "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24). It is after the tribulation of THOSE days of the times of the Gentiles that we're still in now that Christ will return.
 
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BABerean2

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This is great. Very well done. I really enjoyed reading this post.

Both preterists and futurists miss that the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29 is not the same tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:15-22. Why do they miss this? Because they fail to look at Luke 21 for added information and understanding of the Olivet Discourse. We need to compare them directly verse by verse as you did here. Mark 13 also has a bit of additional info about the Olivet Discourse not included in Matthew 24 and that gets overlooked as well.

The tribulation of Matthew 24:15-22 relates to the destruction of the temple buildings that Jesus talked about. Luke clarified in Luke 21:20-24 that the city itself would be attacked and made desolate and not just the temple buildings. That is exactly what is indicated in Daniel 9:26 which says that both the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed.

As you indicated, and as so many people miss, following that tribulation period that occurred around 70 AD, there would be "the times of the Gentiles" during which the Jews have been "led away captive into all nations" and during which "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24). It is after the tribulation of THOSE days of the times of the Gentiles that we're still in now that Christ will return.

Thanks.

I love you, Brother.

Feel free to download a copy to share with others.

.
 
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Timtofly

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The same characters below in chapter 6, and also in chapter 19 prove you are wrong.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


.
You are pointing out all those who endured to the end.

They made it through the final harvest.

They made it through Satan's 42 months clearly receiving the mark and worshipping Satan.

They lived through the 7 vials and are now facing the one on the white horse.

They met God on the throne and the Lamb in the 6th seal. Then they endured years of judgment. They enjoyed Satan's company, buying, selling, and trading. Now they face Christ on a white horse. They endured to the end as foolish virgins. And now they stand on a battle field to be killed, by the sword. How can all these events happen in 24 hours?

When was Satan revealed before God on the throne and the Lamb? Why were these exact same people never saved? How do you fit all the chapters written between chapter 6 and 19, into the verses of chapter 6 prior to the 6th Seal? How does this army prepare to be destroyed, if they do not even know when it is going to happen? Those 3 spirits go out of the mouths to gather an army in Revelation 16. Those spirits know when it is going to happen and not even Jesus Christ knows? Whatever ever happened to the point no one knows the day or hour?

What if this army shows up on the wrong day? Do they keep showing up until they get the day right? Why are they afraid as if surprised in Seal 6, but prepared to kill Christ at the battle of Armageddon, even if it is a guessing game on when Christ is going to show up? The battle of Armageddon is at the end of a 42 month period. Seal 6 is a surprise event that happens months before the 42 month event even starts. Your time traveling recaps have humans with supernatural powers, only Hollywood can dream up. At least recap gives these powers to all: the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man.
 
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jgr

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Only the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions contain the phrase "abomination of desolation" quoted from the Book of Daniel.

The Luke 21 version does not.

Because the Holy Spirit instructed Luke to identify the abomination, the Roman armies.

The word "desolation" that appears in the Luke 21 version is in a different context, no abomination associated with it. It is used in relation to the Antichrist's armies surrounding Jerusalem and God's destruction there on the last day...

There is no "different context". They're called "synoptic gospels" for a reason.

The placing of the "abomination that maketh desolate" is about the below event by the "vile person" in Daniel 11 ...

There is no relationship between the events of Daniel 11 and Matthew 24. The former was fulfilled in the abominations of the Antiochus line.

That Daniel 11 Scripture is about the "man of sin" that Apostle Paul warned of in 2 Thessalonians 2. He must first come to Jerusalem and sit in a standing temple and exalt himself in place of God, and over all that is worshiped or called God, prior to Christ's coming.

There is no relationship between the events of Daniel 11 and 2 Thessalonians 2. The former was fulfilled in the abominations of the Antiochus line. The latter describes someone who would arrogate spiritual authority in a "naos" spiritual temple, i.e. the Church.

The Reformers correctly ascertained his identity, which was integral to the success of the Reformation.
 
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grafted branch

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As you indicated, and as so many people miss, following that tribulation period that occurred around 70 AD, there would be "the times of the Gentiles" during which the Jews have been "led away captive into all nations" and during which "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24). It is after the tribulation of THOSE days of the times of the Gentiles that we're still in now that Christ will return.

So I have a question in regards to Jerusalem being trodden down by the Gentiles. I think the “the tribulation of those days” is blindness in part happening to Israel (Romans 11:25); because there can be no greater tribulation than spiritual blindness. I too believe we are in the “times of the Gentiles” however trying to put a definition on “Jerusalem being trodden down” is difficult to fit in.

Premils will point out that Jerusalem is currently no longer being trodden down, which is obviously a literal interpretation. If Jerusalem is being trodden down spiritually then it seems it has to be associated with Hebrews 12:22 which says we are come to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem.

It doesn’t seem to make sense that Gentiles are currently trodding down heavenly Jerusalem. So how would you define “Jerusalem being trodden down”?
 
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Timtofly

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Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)
I have nothing against any of this post, but no where does Jesus say they are going to be killed in a battle. It only says they will mourn. Revelation 6:12-17

12 Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red.
13 The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!
17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

They are afraid and crying out.

At the battle of Armageddon, they are dead. Revelation 19:21

21 The rest were killed with the sword that goes out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Lamb final harvest. Olivet sign in the 6th Seal.

Much later Christ on a white horse, a battle and death.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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So I have a question in regards to Jerusalem being trodden down by the Gentiles. I think the “the tribulation of those days” is blindness in part happening to Israel (Romans 11:25); because there can be no greater tribulation than spiritual blindness. I too believe we are in the “times of the Gentiles” however trying to put a definition on “Jerusalem being trodden down” is difficult to fit in.

Premils will point out that Jerusalem is currently no longer being trodden down, which is obviously a literal interpretation. If Jerusalem is being trodden down spiritually then it seems it has to be associated with Hebrews 12:22 which says we are come to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem.

It doesn’t seem to make sense that Gentiles are currently trodding down heavenly Jerusalem. So how would you define “Jerusalem being trodden down”?
First of all, it is clearly referring to earthly Jerusalem in Luke 21:20-24, so we need to look at it from that standpoint.

I believe Jerusalem being trodden down (NIV says trampled on) refers to what happened there long ago. Their city and their temple were destroyed in 70 AD. They can't properly observe their religion of Judaism without their temple because it requires animal sacrifices, the high priest coming before God in the temple and other activities performed at the temple. And that has been the case ever since and is still the case today as they still have no temple. It isn't possible for there ever to be a physical temple again where God would meet with His people there. We (the church) are the temple of God now. So, because of all that, I believe Jerusalem is still trodden down today and will be until the second coming of Christ.

You mentioned Romans 11:25. I suppose it's possible that the times of the Gentiles will end when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, if that's what you were implying. There could be a connection there, though the context of Luke 21:20-24 is not really the same as Romans 11.
 
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grafted branch

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First of all, it is clearly referring to earthly Jerusalem in Luke 21:20-24, so we need to look at it from that standpoint.

I believe Jerusalem being trodden down (NIV says trampled on) refers to what happened there long ago. Their city and their temple were destroyed in 70 AD. They can't properly observe their religion of Judaism without their temple because it requires animal sacrifices, the high priest coming before God in the temple and other activities performed at the temple. And that has been the case ever since and is still the case today as they still have no temple. It isn't possible for there ever to be a physical temple again where God would meet with His people there. We (the church) are the temple of God now. So, because of all that, I believe Jerusalem is still trodden down today and will be until the second coming of Christ.

Ok thanks for that explanation.
You mentioned Romans 11:25. I suppose it's possible that the times of the Gentiles will end when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, if that's what you were implying. There could be a connection there, though the context of Luke 21:20-24 is not really the same as Romans 11.

I know some people place the fullness of the Gentiles as referring to the Gentiles being included into the body of believers. I don’t think this can be correct, since Romans was written approximately in 58 A.D. and Romans 11:25 seems to indicate that the fullness had not yet happened at that time. I haven’t read any commentaries that have placed the fullness of the Gentiles as occurring in 70 A.D. but I suppose that’s a possibility also.
 
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Ok thanks for that explanation.
You're welcome.

I know some people place the fullness of the Gentiles as referring to the Gentiles being included into the body of believers. I don’t think this can be correct, since Romans was written approximately in 58 A.D. and Romans 11:25 seems to indicate that the fullness had not yet happened at that time.
Where are you getting the idea that Paul was saying that was already fulfilled at the time? I'm confused by what you're saying here. Please explain.

I haven’t read any commentaries that have placed the fullness of the Gentiles as occurring in 70 A.D. but I suppose that’s a possibility also.
That isn't what I'm saying. I'm also not saying the times of the Gentiles ended in 70 AD. I guess I'm just not making myself clear somehow. I thought I was clear. Not sure how to say what I said any differently.
 
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