Abomination of Desolation in Luke?

[grafted branch]

Jesus Himself is speaking in the text. I think you need to pray to him over his choice of words.

I think the choice of words is infallible so when Ezekiel 39:23 says all the house of Israel fell by the sword, it means exactly that. I’m not sure what I should be praying for in this matter.

 

[grafted branch]

You can't have the house of Israel going into captivity if you literally have them all falling by the sword and interpreting it as "they all died." It wouldn't make sense, man.

Exactly something in this chapter has to be taken in the non-literal sense. So we can’t base a timeline off of this chapter alone, it has to be compared to other scriptures to figure out what the correct interpretation is.

 

[Douggg]

I think the choice of words is infallible so when Ezekiel 39:23 says all the house of Israel fell by the sword, it means exactly that. I’m not sure what I should be praying for in this matter.

I think you need to pray to Jesus for discernment and understanding of what He says in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In the wake of Gog/Magog, no telling what is going to happen.

If the rapture happened today, no telling what the reaction is going to be among governments of the world, tomorrow. Put that on top of Covid 19. And on top of Biden/Trump.

When the Antichrist, the great opposer to Jesus, begins his time, as the King of Israel/messiah, following Gog/Magog, sites like this are likely to be shut down. Covid 19 has the churches basically shut down as far as assembly, right now. This world is changing.

Can you point me to the scripture which speaks of all the devastating effects that would result from a pre-trib (pre-second coming in your case?) rapture? Not only would millions of people suddenly disappear from the earth, but there would be many car accidents, some plane accidents, utter chaos and confusion and other major impacts and there would be devastated families and friends and so on. Surely, if an event like this was going to happen, it would be described in scripture. So, where exactly are the effects of a pre-trib or pre-second coming rapture described in scripture?

 

[Douggg]

Can you point me to the scripture which speaks of all the devastating effects that would result from a pre-trib (pre-second coming in your case?) rapture? Not only would millions of people suddenly disappear from the earth, but there would be many car accidents, some plane accidents, utter chaos and confusion and other major impacts and there would be devastated families and friends and so on. Surely, if an event like this was going to happen, it would be described in scripture. So, where exactly are the effects of a pre-trib or pre-second coming rapture described in scripture?

It is not there because it would give away the timing.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It is not there because it would give away the timing.

What do you mean? How would a description of the things that happen after the rapture as a result of the rapture give away the timing of the rapture?

 

[Douggg]

What do you mean? How would a description of the things that happen after the rapture as a result of the rapture give away the timing of the rapture?

I think you need to read Revelation 10:4, as an example. Some things are intentionally not revealed.

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I think you need to read Revelation 10:4, as an example. Some things are intentionally not revealed.

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

So, tell me why the after effects of the rapture wouldn't be revealed then.

 

[Douggg]

So, tell me why the after effects of the rapture wouldn't be revealed then.

The answer to that question will not be known until hindsight.

 

[Davy]

Luke disagrees.

Apostle Luke does not... disagree; he wasn't speaking of the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel when he mentioned the armies surrounding Jerusalem with God's desolation of those armies being nigh. That is what Luke was pointing to with that day of God's vengeance. It's thus the doctrines of men you're following that disagree with Apostle Luke.

Did the Christian believers in Judaea flee on or before the last day of this world?

Christ's command for His servants in Jerusalem when the false Messiah shows up, and the destruction of antichrist's armies on the day of Christ's coming, which is the day God's cup of wrath on the 7th Vial is poured out, are all... part of the reason for the saints to stay out of Judea. This is why Lord Jesus in Luke 21 warned also for those in the countries to not enter in that area for the end.

Therefore, you cannot simply try to assign His command for those in Judea to flee from the idol abomination worship only. It's the whole of events for the end that are to happen there.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The answer to that question will not be known until hindsight.

No one is going to buy this explanation. Thank you for confirming that you have no answer to my question, which reveals a major weakness in your pre-second coming any time rapture theory.

Clearly, if such a thing was going to happen it would be described in scripture, but it's not. The idea of the rapture occurring any time before the second coming of Christ "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) cannot be supported with scripture.

Scripture is very clear that Jesus will be descending from heaven in the future only once and He will be meeting with His people "in the air" on that day while also destroying all of His enemies.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[jgr]

Apostle Luke does not... disagree; he wasn't speaking of the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel when he mentioned the armies surrounding Jerusalem with God's desolation of those armies being nigh. That is what Luke was pointing to with that day of God's vengeance. It's thus the doctrines of men you're following that disagree with Apostle Luke.

Luke was referring specifically to Daniel's prophecies, which use the same terminology, and harmonize with Daniel's elucidation of the abomination.

You're suffering from "interpretation by imagination".

Christ's command for His servants in Jerusalem when the false Messiah shows up, and the destruction of antichrist's armies on the day of Christ's coming, which is the day God's cup of wrath on the 7th Vial is poured out, are all... part of the reason for the saints to stay out of Judea. This is why Lord Jesus in Luke 21 warned also for those in the countries to not enter in that area for the end.

Therefore, you cannot simply try to assign His command for those in Judea to flee from the idol abomination worship only. It's the whole of events for the end that are to happen there.

Are you denying that the Judaean Christians fled prior to 70 AD?

Nothing to do with "false Messiah" or "antichrist's armies" or "the day of Christ's coming" or anything else that you've eisegeted.

 

[Timtofly]

No one is going to buy this explanation. Thank you for confirming that you have no answer to my question, which reveals a major weakness in your pre-second coming any time rapture theory.

Clearly, if such a thing was going to happen it would be described in scripture, but it's not. The idea of the rapture occurring any time before the second coming of Christ "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) cannot be supported with scripture.

Scripture is very clear that Jesus will be descending from heaven in the future only once and He will be meeting with His people "in the air" on that day while also destroying all of His enemies.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

People will see God on the throne in the 6th seal. Do they see God on the throne at the battle of Armageddon? How do you reconcile two events to be just one event? How can the Lamb on earth have a Covenant that deals with Satan, much after the FP and Satan are destroyed at Armageddon? Does John lie to us about the 42 months, 1260 day time period between the two events? The Covenant being upheld gives us this time period. God on the throne in the presence of all humanity on earth confirms this Covenant. That is the Second Coming. The 7th Trumpet heralds this event. The Second Coming happens before the 7th Trumpet. The battle of Armageddon ends the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet has a very well defined beginning and end by John. It is not a mystery. The Second Coming is not at the very end. The Second Coming is the event that causes the 7th Trumpet to even sound. The 7th Trumpet is the end of the Second Coming event. The battle of Armageddon is the end of the 7th Trumpet event. Post trib put the horse behind the cart. Yes there is a white horse at the end. But the cart exists because God on His throne has already been on the earth for the first 6 Trumpets. And the Lamb by His side. The train has already left the station by the middle of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. There is no train at the battle of Armageddon.

 

[BABerean2]

People will see God on the throne in the 6th seal. Do they see God on the throne at the battle of Armageddon? How do you reconcile two events to be just one event? How can the Lamb on earth have a Covenant that deals with Satan, much after the FP and Satan are destroyed at Armageddon? Does John lie to us about the 42 months, 1260 day time period between the two events? The Covenant being upheld gives us this time period. God on the throne in the presence of all humanity on earth confirms this Covenant. That is the Second Coming. The 7th Trumpet heralds this event. The Second Coming happens before the 7th Trumpet. The battle of Armageddon ends the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet has a very well defined beginning and end by John. It is not a mystery. The Second Coming is not at the very end. The Second Coming is the event that causes the 7th Trumpet to even sound. The 7th Trumpet is the end of the Second Coming event. The battle of Armageddon is the end of the 7th Trumpet event. Post trib put the horse behind the cart. Yes there is a white horse at the end. But the cart exists because God on His throne has already been on the earth for the first 6 Trumpets. And the Lamb by His side. The train has already left the station by the middle of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. There is no train at the battle of Armageddon.

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.



The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

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[Timtofly]

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.



The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.

There is only one Second Coming.

Why would I accept multiple views or even multiple comings from a person who changes the Word of God to prove a point?

You accuse me of that a lot. That is a personal opinion.

The white horse event is not a thief in the night. 10 kings gather in the valley of Megiddo for a one hour planned event. Is it really a surprise the Lord shows up? Did they put they faith and trust that someone would or would not show up? If at the end of the hour, had no one shown up would they just have walked away in disgust and ended up dead and in sheol any way? Would the beast and FP have jumped into the lake of fire as planned? Would Satan have gone off looking for the angel to escort him to the pit? Was it really a surprise it turned out the way it did?

Christ does not come in fire in Revelation 20. Once again changing Scripture to prove a point. Christ and those resurrected in verse 4 are in the city on earth that God loves. Satan marches from the ends of the earth, yes, earth. And on the way is consumed by fire from heaven, yes heaven. The fire did not come from the earth to heaven. It did not come from a higher heaven to a lower heaven. It came from heaven to earth. Christ was not in the fire, but in a city on earth, Satan was marching towards. Revelation 20:11


11 Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.

That was the end of reality. God did not even define those present as souls.

12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne.

This is no longer creation but an in-between for "the dead".

Every one else watched creation burn and dissolve around them as they experienced the NHNE.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had passed away, and the sea was no longer there.

It changed around their incorruptible bodies like they were walking from one room into the next room.

God on the throne and the Lamb do come in the 6th Seal. There is no leaving until the point of the abomination of desolation. God on the throne goes behind another spiritual veil until 1000 years later when earth and heaven dissolve into nothing. The Lamb and the 144k wait on Mount Tziyon. They wait for that specific hour on that specific day at the end of the 42 months. No guess work, no surprises. Plain words as text on the pages of the book of Revelation. The Word of God, the Revelation of Jesus Christ the Lamb.

 

[Douggg]

Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

The see Jesus in the third heaven, not here on earth at that time. Jesus descends down to earth 45 days later.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Douggg]

No one is going to buy this explanation. Thank you for confirming that you have no answer to my question, which reveals a major weakness in your pre-second coming any time rapture theory.

Clearly, if such a thing was going to happen it would be described in scripture, but it's not. The idea of the rapture occurring any time before the second coming of Christ "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) cannot be supported with scripture.

Scripture is very clear that Jesus will be descending from heaven in the future only once and He will be meeting with His people "in the air" on that day while also destroying all of His enemies.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

How do you know that the seven thunders didn't contain information about the rapture ?

The rapture takes place on a day you think not. If you think the rapture takes place on the day that Jesus descends to earth, then it will not be that day.

 

[BABerean2]

The see Jesus in the third heaven, not here on earth at that time. Jesus descends down to earth 45 days later.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Are they looking through a telescope to see from planet earth to the third heaven?


I cannot find the words "45 days later" in the text.



.

 

[BABerean2]

There is only one Second Coming.

Your statement above is correct.

However, because Christ comes as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know there is more than one vision of the Second Coming in the Book of Revelation.


.

 

[Douggg]

Are they looking through a telescope to see from planet earth to the third heaven?


I cannot find the words "45 days later" in the text.



.

No to the first question. Jesus will obviously appear magnified compared to them here on earth.

And 45 days is not in the text, but is the difference between 1290 days and the 1335th day.

You bring up such petty issues.