Abomination of Desolation in Luke?

grafted branch

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Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both use the term abomination of desolation; however that specific term isn’t used in Luke 21. Trying to harmonize these chapters by equating Jerusalem surrounded by armies with the abomination of desolation presents some issues.

Points that support AOD and JSA (Jerusalem surrounded by armies) being the same event are

  1. Matthew and Mark were written for a Jewish audience while Luke was written mainly to Gentiles.

  2. The description and instructions on fleeing is nearly identical for both AOD and JSA.

  3. There can be little doubt that the questions asked and the answer given by Jesus in the 3 gospels prior to the phrases AOD and JSA are to be viewed as the same question/answer session.
Points that don’t support AOD and JSA being the same event are

  1. The Jews would have certainly been aware of Antiochus Epiphanies sacrifice and wouldn’t necessarily associate armies surrounding Jerusalem as the abomination spoken of in Daniel.

  2. If the Jews would have waited until the armies were standing in the holy place (Jerusalem) it surely would’ve been too late to escape. If the holy place is outside of Jerusalem then it doesn’t seem likely that the Jews would’ve understood the warning written for them.

  3. Matthew and Mark both have the phrase AOD and the days being shortened, Luke has neither phrase.

  4. It wouldn’t seem to matter whether the days of vengeance were shortened or not after the believing Jews fled, their flesh would still be saved.
These are just some points that I can think of, I would like to hear from others if they have additional points to make on either side.

I made this chart to show my current view of how I deal with some of the issues.


upload_2020-11-27_8-36-21.png



This chart might be difficult to read and I couldn’t fit all my thoughst on it; so I have each time period listed below (I’m not very good at making charts, this is my first attempt at it).

  1. Daily sacrifice is taken away. In Daniel 12:11 the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and Hebrews 7:27 shows that the high priests offered up daily sacrifice, first for their own sins, and then for the peoples. The necessity to provide the daily sacrifices was taken away because God will provide the sacrifice. The point at which this occurs is in John 1:29 where Jesus is declared to be the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Jesus has power to forgive sins prior to the cross (Matthew 9:2-6) proving that the high priests sacrifices were no longer necessary. The sacrifices were allowed to continue in the temple even though the shadow they were portraying was presently with them because the second (in Hebrews 10:9) was not yet established. Hebrew 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

  2. Jesus’s ministry starts. In Matthew 4:12-17, after He heard that John the Baptist was cast into prison … from that time Jesus began to preach, and say, repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

  3. The cross (30 A.D.)
  1. Abomination of Desolation. The first sacrifice made after the veil was torn is an abomination that makes those who perform it desolate. It’s an abomination because it denies that Jesus was the Lamb and the sacrifices they are making can’t forgive sins so they are now desolate. Fleeing didn’t happen here because the days of vengeance were shortened. The first part of “the days of vengeance” was truncated, so the sign to flee is now Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

  2. Pentecost. This event would be in doubt if the days of vengeance weren’t shortened.

  3. Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Daniel 9:27 and that determined shall be poured out upon the desolate. The fleeing happens here because these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

  4. 70 A.D.
 

Douggg

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These are just some points that I can think of, I would like to hear from others if they have additional points to make on either side.
The Luke 21:20-24 event ends with the Jews being lead away captives into the nations.

Differently, in Matthew 24:14-31, is after the gospel has been preached to all nations, and ends with all the Jews being gathered back to the land of Israel, v31. Corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28.

Luke 21:20-24 is the 70 AD - 135 AD event(s)

Matthew 24:15-31 is end times, following Gog/Magog.

___________________________________________________________________

You are using the wrong base document for eschatology anyway.

Ezekiel 39 provides the infallible timeline basis for eschatology. Gog/Magog, then the 7 years, then Armageddon, then Jesus back on earth having returned, then the gathering of the Jews in Ezekiel 39:28.

The abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15, the great tribulation, Jesus's return, all have to fit within the infallible Ezekiel 39 basis for eschatology. i.e. the 7 years following Gog/Magog.
 
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grafted branch

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The abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15, the great tribulation, Jesus's return, all have to fit within the infallible Ezekiel 39 basis for eschatology. i.e. the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

So where in Ezekiel 39 are the days shortened?
 
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Douggg

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grafted branch

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No days are shortened in terms of lesser days total. The term in Matthew 24:22 is just a way to say that the days of the great tribulation will be limited - cut short of all flesh on earth being destroyed.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

So you’re saying if the tribulation went longer than 7 years no flesh would be saved?

2 Peter 3:12 says the elements will melt with fervent heat. Why would God make sure the tribulation lasted only 7 years so some flesh would be saved, then turn around and melt everything after that?
 
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jgr

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The Jews would have certainly been aware of Antiochus Epiphanies sacrifice and wouldn’t necessarily associate armies surrounding Jerusalem as the abomination spoken of in Daniel.

The Roman armies were well established as abominations to the Jews owing to the pagan ensigns which they bore. Cestius Gallus entered Jerusalem in 66 AD but then withdrew, alerting the Christian believers to Jesus' prophetic warning, and giving them the necessary opportunity to flee.

If the Jews would have waited until the armies were standing in the holy place (Jerusalem) it surely would’ve been too late to escape. If the holy place is outside of Jerusalem then it doesn’t seem likely that the Jews would’ve understood the warning written for them.

See above.

Matthew and Mark both have the phrase AOD and the days being shortened, Luke has neither phrase.

All three accounts refer to "desolation". Luke elucidates the meaning of "abomination".

It wouldn’t seem to matter whether the days of vengeance were shortened or not after the believing Jews fled, their flesh would still be saved.

Had the war and destruction continued, there is every possibility that it could have spread into the surrounding areas e.g. to which the Christians had fled. Hence, for their sake, God shortened those days.
 
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Douggg

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So you’re saying if the tribulation went longer than 7 years no flesh would be saved?

2 Peter 3:12 says the elements will melt with fervent heat. Why would God make sure the tribulation lasted only 7 years so some flesh would be saved, then turn around and melt everything after that?
Yes, to the first question. If the great tribulation is not limited in its time, no flesh will survive, i.e. dead planet as far as any life on it.

The great tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation placed on the temple mount, and lasts 1335 days (limited to) to the day that Jesus returns.

___________________________________________________________________

Regarding what Peter said, the Day of the Lord is too broad to use as a framework for eschatology. Ezekiel 39 narrows it down to 7 years. And provides for a definitive beginning and ending of the end time events.

This world and everything in it will eventually be destroyed after the final rebellion instigated by Satan at the end of thousand years, in Revelation 20. The destruction of this present earth and heaven will be right before the Great White Throne Judgement.

Revelaton 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
 
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grafted branch

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The Roman armies were well established as abominations to the Jews owing to the pagan ensigns which they bore. Cestius Gallus entered Jerusalem in 66 AD but then withdrew, alerting the Christian believers to Jesus' prophetic warning, and giving them the necessary opportunity to flee.



See above.



All three accounts refer to "desolation". Luke elucidates the meaning of "abomination".



Had the war and destruction continued, there is every possibility that it could have spread into the surrounding areas e.g. to which the Christians had fled. Hence, for their sake, God shortened those days.

Ok, thanks for addressing the points against them being the same event. Can I get your opinion on Daniel 11:31, would it be referring to Antiochus? The reason I ask is if it was referring to Antiochus then the Jews could have interpreted the abomination of desolation as being the daily sacrifice being taken away first and then the abomination of desolation being put in place.
 
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grafted branch

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Regarding what Peter said, the Day of the Lord is too broad to use as a framework for eschatology. Ezekiel 39 narrows it down to 7 years. And provides for a definitive beginning and ending of the end time events.

The day of the Lord in 2 Peter 3 seems to be referring to Matthew 24:36-41. 2 Peter 3:5-6 is referring to the Noah flood, and Mathew 24:36-41 is also. Would you say these 2 passages are referring to the same day of the Lord?
 
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jgr

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Ok, thanks for addressing the points against them being the same event. Can I get your opinion on Daniel 11:31, would it be referring to Antiochus? The reason I ask is if it was referring to Antiochus then the Jews could have interpreted the abomination of desolation as being the daily sacrifice being taken away first and then the abomination of desolation being put in place.

Thanks. The question is whether Jesus was referring to Daniel 11:31, or to Daniel 9:26-27. Luke 21:20 clarifies that the abomination refers to the Roman armies. In Daniel 9:26, "people of the prince" refers to the Roman armies. In Daniel 9:27, "abominations" refers to the Roman armies.

Antiochus was not a Roman, but rather a Greek. Nor did the Greeks deify their leaders as the pagan Romans did their caesars, said deifications being an abomination to the Jews.

The weight of the evidence suggests that Jesus was referring to Daniel 9:26-27.
 
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Douggg

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The day of the Lord in 2 Peter 3 seems to be referring to Matthew 24:36-41. 2 Peter 3:5-6 is referring to the Noah flood, and Mathew 24:36-41 is also. Would you say these 2 passages are referring to the same day of the Lord?
The problem is when a person starts using the Day of the Lord to time specific events of eschatology - it gets very cumbersome because the Day of the Lord lasts for eternity, and has no end. The only thing that can be pinpointed about the Day of the Lord is the day and event which it begins - and that is when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation.

Once the Day of Lord begins, there are many events later down the road associated with the Day of the Lord. That's why when people start basing their eschatology on the Day of the Lord, there are all these never ending arguments going on.

Use Ezekiel 39 instead as the basis for eschatology study, for it's infallible timeline framework.


I show the beginning of the Day of the Lord on my Anytime Rapture View chart. And it is never ending into eternity.


upload_2020-11-27_14-25-8.jpeg
 
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grafted branch

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The problem is when a person starts using the Day of the Lord to time specific events of eschatology - it gets very cumbersome because the Day of the Lord lasts for eternity, and has no end. The only thing that can be pinpointed about the Day of the Lord is the day and event which it begins - and that is when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation.

I disagree with the 70th week being still future, but your chart shows the day of the Lord occurring after the covenant is confirmed. If the day of the Lord comes as in the days of Noah where no one knew until the flood came; then how come someone could simply look at your chart after the confirmation of the covenant and know when to expect the day of the Lord? Isn't the covenant confirmed for 7 years?
 
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Douggg

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I disagree with the 70th week being still future, but your chart shows the day of the Lord occurring after the covenant is confirmed. If the day of the Lord comes as in the days of Noah where no one knew until the flood came; then how come someone could simply look at your chart after the confirmation of the covenant and know when to expect the day of the Lord? Isn't the covenant confirmed for 7 years?
Because Matthew 24:32-51 is not about the beginning of the Day of the Lord, but about the rapture being imminent, and a means by which Christians will escape going through the great tribulation.

Also, if you re-examine my chart I don't place any particular day that the transgression of desolation act will take place. Because it is not known. It will be after the confirmation of the covenant. But what is not known is how many days after the confirmation of the covenant.

A person could know, generally speaking, that the act will take place around 3 years thereabouts, with maybe a 3 months accuracy, after the confirmation of the covenant.

Why won't anyone just count down to that general timeframe? If Christians are still here after the beginning of the 7 years, and the rapture has not taken place - then they certainly should be expecting the rapture any day, even more than now.

Even as it is right now, the window for the rapture taking place keeps getting smaller.

________________________________________________________

The sign to actually be looking for is what is going on in Europe if there are rumblings about a ten leader form of government over there with one leader over them. To me, what is going on in Europe is hard to know from here in the United States. Our European brothers and sisters are in a better position for that imo.
 
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grafted branch

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Because Matthew 24:32-51 is not about the beginning of the Day of the Lord, but about the rapture being imminent, and a means by which Christians will escape going through the great tribulation.

You’re not making any sense to me, your chart shows the day of the lord starting after the rapture.
The day of the Lord in 2 Peter 3 seems to be referring to Matthew 24:36-41. 2 Peter 3:5-6 is referring to the Noah flood, and Matthew 24:36-41 is also. Would you say these 2 passages are referring to the same day of the Lord?

So your answer to this question would have to be no?
 
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Douggg

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You’re not making any sense to me, your chart shows the day of the lord starting after the rapture.

My chart shows a blueish window which the rapture can take place.

It may take place before the confirming of the covenant.

It may take place after the confirming of the covenant.

It must take place before the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist - which no-one can determine what day during the 7 years the Antichrist will do that.



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Douggg

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@grafted branch

grafted branch said:
The day of the Lord in 2 Peter 3 seems to be referring to Matthew 24:36-41. 2 Peter 3:5-6 is referring to the Noah flood, and Matthew 24:36-41 is also. Would you say these 2 passages are referring to the same day of the Lord?


So your answer to this question would have to be no?

___________________________________________________________
The answer is definitely "no" as far as the destruction of this present earth and heaven being at Jesus's Return. The destruction of this present earth and heaven is 1000 years after Jesus has returned.


Matthew 24:36-41 contains three verses about the flood, v37-39.

2Peter3:6-7 also reference the flood.

Both passages emphasize people will not believe what is going to happen.

What is different, is Peter is talking about the Day of Lord in the broad sense because Peter talks about the destruction of this present earth and heavens.

In Matthew, Jesus is talking about His coming for Christians to be raptured out of the world to avoid having to go through the great tribulation.

As what I had posted earlier, when people start trying to use the Day of the Lord for the basis for their eschatology, taking from different parts of the Bible which has the Day of the Lord in those, they are going to come up with all sorts of erroneous ideas...

...because they don't consider that the Day of the Lord is broad and last forever, and events take place all along the line.

________________________________________________________

The destruction of this present earth and heaven is in Revelation 20:11.

Then go back 1000 years to Jesus's return, His Second Coming, in Revelation 19:11-21.

Then go back 7 years before then - to Gog/Magog, the burial of Gog's army in Israel, in Ezekiel 39:1-6.
 
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tranquil

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Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both use the term abomination of desolation; however that specific term isn’t used in Luke 21. Trying to harmonize these chapters by equating Jerusalem surrounded by armies with the abomination of desolation presents some issues.

Points that support AOD and JSA (Jerusalem surrounded by armies) being the same event are

  1. Matthew and Mark were written for a Jewish audience while Luke was written mainly to Gentiles.

  2. The description and instructions on fleeing is nearly identical for both AOD and JSA.

  3. There can be little doubt that the questions asked and the answer given by Jesus in the 3 gospels prior to the phrases AOD and JSA are to be viewed as the same question/answer session.
Points that don’t support AOD and JSA being the same event are

  1. The Jews would have certainly been aware of Antiochus Epiphanies sacrifice and wouldn’t necessarily associate armies surrounding Jerusalem as the abomination spoken of in Daniel.

  2. If the Jews would have waited until the armies were standing in the holy place (Jerusalem) it surely would’ve been too late to escape. If the holy place is outside of Jerusalem then it doesn’t seem likely that the Jews would’ve understood the warning written for them.

  3. Matthew and Mark both have the phrase AOD and the days being shortened, Luke has neither phrase.

  4. It wouldn’t seem to matter whether the days of vengeance were shortened or not after the believing Jews fled, their flesh would still be saved.
These are just some points that I can think of, I would like to hear from others if they have additional points to make on either side.

I made this chart to show my current view of how I deal with some of the issues.


View attachment 289557


This chart might be difficult to read and I couldn’t fit all my thoughst on it; so I have each time period listed below (I’m not very good at making charts, this is my first attempt at it).

  1. Daily sacrifice is taken away. In Daniel 12:11 the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and Hebrews 7:27 shows that the high priests offered up daily sacrifice, first for their own sins, and then for the peoples. The necessity to provide the daily sacrifices was taken away because God will provide the sacrifice. The point at which this occurs is in John 1:29 where Jesus is declared to be the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Jesus has power to forgive sins prior to the cross (Matthew 9:2-6) proving that the high priests sacrifices were no longer necessary. The sacrifices were allowed to continue in the temple even though the shadow they were portraying was presently with them because the second (in Hebrews 10:9) was not yet established. Hebrew 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

  2. Jesus’s ministry starts. In Matthew 4:12-17, after He heard that John the Baptist was cast into prison … from that time Jesus began to preach, and say, repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

  3. The cross (30 A.D.)
  1. Abomination of Desolation. The first sacrifice made after the veil was torn is an abomination that makes those who perform it desolate. It’s an abomination because it denies that Jesus was the Lamb and the sacrifices they are making can’t forgive sins so they are now desolate. Fleeing didn’t happen here because the days of vengeance were shortened. The first part of “the days of vengeance” was truncated, so the sign to flee is now Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

  2. Pentecost. This event would be in doubt if the days of vengeance weren’t shortened.

  3. Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Daniel 9:27 and that determined shall be poured out upon the desolate. The fleeing happens here because these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

  4. 70 A.D.

Luke 21
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Verse 24 corresponds to the time of the 2 witnesses 1260 days. Verse 21 corresponds Lamentations 1:3 and to the woman of Rev 12 going into the wilderness ('Jerusalem'/ 'the city' is called the 'woman' in Lamentations 1:1-3).

Matt 24
15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The abomination is referred to in Daniel 9:27 Septuagint
27And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.
Just go through the time frames in Dan 9, starting at the creation of Israel: 70 years (Daniel 9:2), 70 weeks (takes us to dusk Aug 22, 2019), 7 weeks, 62 weeks, then 1/2 week = Dec 21, 2020.

That's the start of the abomination (technically, it could show up on Dec 10, 2020 as that is 24 Kislev) and the great tribulation. This starts Dan 12:12's 1335 days, then 70 weeks to 'finish the transgression', the last week of which (at the end of the 69th week) takes us to 24 Kislev plus the 7 days to purify the 'temple' ends the 70 weeks.

The 2 witnesses 1260 days/ woman in the wilderness 1260 days end 9 months after the end of 1335 days (the 9 months is the 'birth' of the kingdom of heaven at the 7th Trumpet referenced in the 'birth' in Rev 12). 7 months of clean-up (Ezekiel 39:12) rounds out the end of 70 weeks. In other words, the 70 weeks after the 1335 days is divided into 9 + 7 months. (70 weeks = 16 months). The 2 witnesses 1260 days + 3.5 days lying dead = May 14, 2025, the 77th solar anniversary of Jerusalem's desolation. The '7 years' are from the 70th anniversary of Jerusalem's desolations (Dan 9:2) to the 77th anniversary (May 14, 2018 is the solar date of the 70th anniversary; dusk April 18, 2018 is the Hebrew date.)

The Abraham Accord functions as a 'call to rebuild Jerusalem' (Daniel 9:25) (it references 'the vision' in Daniel 9:24, 'peace and safety'/ 'peace and prosperity', and the treaty functions as an economic vehicle to 'rebuild' Jerusalem. Abraham Accords Peace Agreement: Treaty of Peace, Diplomatic Relations and Full Normalization Between the United Arab Emirates and the State of Israel | The White House

Sept 15, 2020 was 'issuance' of this 'call' plus 7 weeks until an anointed one comes (dusk Nov 3, 2020 US Election day) and the 2nd anointed one comes after 62 weeks from Sept 15, 2020 to get us to dusk Nov 23, 2021. We get the 'confirming the covenant' here and then breaking it 1/2 week later on Nov 27, 2021. The 2 witnesses start the 1260 days in the 'middle of the 7 years' (from the 70th to 77 anniversary).

the abomination in Matt 24 is not necessarily in a physical temple (as this is not the holy place). The current holy place is in the church. That is what is happening at the beginning. If there is to be a physical temple, the abomination will already be around.
 
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grafted branch

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It must take place before the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist - which no-one can determine what day during the 7 years the Antichrist will do that.

I don’t believe in the rapture so I don’t have an issue with you stating that day will not be known. Here is where I have an issue with what you’re saying; even if the day of the Lord can’t be known precisely you admit that your chart does give a window of 7 years or less. To me this is not like a thief in the night, it’s more like a doctor telling me I have 7 years or less to live. My death would not come as a thief in the night, I would be prepared by making sure I had a will and instructions on where I wanted to be buried, ect.

I guess this is where we simply disagree on what the days of Noah were like and what a thief in the night is referring to.
 
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