Changing your mind about prophecy

[Rachel20]

and yet that is the foundation of what the pre-trib rapture is; an escape from suffering.

You keep saying this. The foundation of any belief should be truth. If the pre-trib rapture is true, and I think the preponderance of scripture points to it, then that is enough to believe it. Regardless what others say of your motives. If you want to discuss the arguments for pre-trib, then lets discuss them.

 

[John Helpher]

You keep saying this.[pre-trib is based on a desire to escape suffering]

Because that is the crux of the issue. Is this message of escape from suffering consistent with Jesus' own life and what he taught others to expect? You say the preponderance of the evidence shows this, and yet that ideal goes against the core tenants of what Jesus taught.

Don't be afraid of those who kill the body. Your worst enemies will be those of your own household. They will drag you before courts and judges. They will say all manner of false things against you. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you. I send you out as sheep among wolves. You will be hated of all people for your loyalty to me. He who endures to the end will be saved.

The pre-trib theory suggests, nah, you won't have to deal with any of that. There are definitely aspects of protection mentioned in the Revelation. In particular, the 144k will have protection from the stinging locust things, but this in no way suggests they will be protected from all suffering. They can still die. They can still feel hunger and pain. They will still need to reject the mark, without which they will not be able to buy or sell.

This is similar to Jesus saying we'll be dragged before courts and put to death, but not a hair of your head will be harmed. He's referring to physical vs spiritual; we'll be put to death, but in the end we are not harmed; we will be resurrected and given new bodies. It is because we have this assurance from the Lord that we should not fear, that we should be prepared to endure hardness and tribulation.

The pre-trib rapture theory undermines this principle with the suggestion that there is no need to endure hardness. This is what caused me to change my mind about pre vs post; I do not want suffering, and yet I recognize that it is unavoidable as part of a healthy, Christian testimony.

 

[Rachel20]

@John Helpher here's a question for you. I'll define post-trib rapture belief in its most typical form - the church meets the Lord in the air, does a u-turn, and comes back with him to the earth (no time in New Jerusalem for the marriage supper as you posited earlier) where the Sheep & Goad judgement commences and those righteous sheep enter the earthly millennium. So here's the question - if those sheep are righteous, why aren't they raptured? The post-trib view has to create a third category of people that isn't scriptural - (1) the righteous that get raptured, (2) the wicked, and (3) the righteous that aren't righteous enough to be raptured, but aren't wicked enough to be destroyed. What is the scriptural basis for this third group?

 

[Rachel20]

You see my point? The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates both saved and unsaved are still in physical bodies. This isn't possible if the rapture takes place at the Second Coming.

 

[John Helpher]

the church meets the Lord in the air,

Yes.

does a u-turn, and comes back with him to the earth (no time in New Jerusalem for the marriage supper as you posited earlier)

Why would you say there's no time? Look again at Revelation 19; this is the Bride of Christ, the saints celebrating the marriage supper. Afterward, they ride down for the battle of Armageddon with Jesus. The battle of Armageddon is the last bowl of wrath. It's clear that these two events are happening concurrently; while Jesus and the saints celebrate the marriage supper of the lamb up in New Jerusalem, the bowls of wrath are poured out on the world below.

where the Sheep & Goad judgement commences and those righteous sheep enter the earthly millennium.

This is a parable meant to illustrate the qualities God is looking for. The judgment of the saints happens at the 7th Trumpet when they are taken up; that is their judgment; they are counted worthy.

So here's the question - if those sheep are righteous, why aren't they raptured?

They are, at the 7th Trumpet when Jesus returns to reign over the earth. (Revelation 11:15-19).

(3) the righteous that aren't righteous enough to be raptured, but aren't wicked enough to be destroyed. What is the scriptural basis for this third group?

This doesn't make sense from a post-trib point of view; all God's people, dead and living, are raptured at the 7th Trumpet, "immediately after the tribulation of those days". This 3rd category you've created demonstrates that you do not understand post-trib thinking.

Both pre-trib and post-trib are really very easy to understand; one (pre-trib) is an escape from suffering; the other (post-trib) requires Christians to endure hardness as a result of resistance to an ever-increasingly evil system.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

The 7th trumpet announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth. Which will be Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing he has but a little time left. The time/times/half time.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

That is not possible.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The seventh trumpet clearly signals the time when God's "wrath is come" and the time of the judgment of the wicked and reward for the saints. How can there be a time, times and half a time following that? That isn't possible. The time for the judgment of the wicked and reward for the saints is after the thousand years (Rev 20:11-21:4).

 

[Rachel20]

Why would you say there's no time?

Because that's what the post-tribulation view says. For them, the rapture is a u-turn in the air and not an ascension to Heaven.

This is a parable meant to illustrate the qualities God is looking for.

You turn Matthew 25:31-46 into a parable to avoid the problem?

This doesn't make sense from a post-trib point of view; all God's people, dead and living, are raptured at the 7th Trumpet, "immediately after the tribulation of those days". This 3rd category you've created demonstrates that you do not understand post-trib thinking.

It illustrates you don't understand the need for there to be saved left in natural bodies after the Lords return. It isn't just the judgement of the nations that requires it, but Old Testament passages like Isaiah 65:20-25. Of course you can turn those into parables too if you need.

"immediately after the tribulation of those days" is a quote from Matthew 24 and there's no rapture mentioned there. You won't find the rapture mentioned in any of the verses that speak of the second coming because they're separate events.

Both pre-trib and post-trib are really very easy to understand; one (pre-trib) is an escape from suffering; the other (post-trib) requires Christians to endure hardness

Those are consequences of the theories, not the arguments or theories themselves smh

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You see my point? The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates both saved and unsaved are still in physical bodies. This isn't possible if the rapture takes place at the Second Coming.

Where does Matthew 25:31-46 say anything about it being the judgment of the Gentiles? And where does it say anything about both saved and unsaved still being in their mortal physical bodies?

Matthew 25:31-46 portrays the day of judgment for all mankind. There is only one day of judgment and all people from all-time will be judged on that day (all will either be condemned to the lake of fire or rewarded with inheritance of the eternal new heavens and new earth).

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Matthew 12:36 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It illustrates you don't understand the need for there to be saved left in natural bodies after the Lords return. It isn't just the judgement of the nations that requires it, but Old Testament passages like Isaiah 65:20-25. Of course you can turn those into parables too if you need.

Isaiah 65:17-25 has to do with the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth. That occurs after the thousands years and after the judgment (Rev 21:1-4).

"immediately after the tribulation of those days" is a quote from Matthew 24 and there's no rapture mentioned there. You won't find the rapture mentioned in any of the verses that speak of the second coming because they're separate events.

How is a gathering of the elect from "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" not a description of the rapture?

Mark 13, is of course, another account of the Olivet Discourse. This is how Mark described the day of Christ's one and only future coming:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

How is the above any different from the following which also has believers being gathered from both heaven and the earth at Christ's second coming:

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The ones being gathered from heaven will be the souls of the dead in Christ and the ones gathered from earth are those "which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord".

 

[Rachel20]

Where does Matthew 25:31-46 say anything about it being the judgment of the Gentiles? And where does it say anything about both saved and unsaved still being in their mortal physical bodies?

"judgement of the Gentiles" is used interchangeably with "sheep & goat", because it pictures the "nations" being gathered and Israel was never reckoned among the nations (Numbers 23:9)

And where does it say anything about both saved and unsaved still being in their mortal physical bodies?

It's required for fulfillment of certain Old Testament passages like Isaiah 65:20-25

Matthew 25:31-46 portrays the day of judgment for all mankind. There is only one day of judgment and all people from all-time will be judged on that day (all will either be condemned to the lake of fire or rewarded with inheritance of the eternal new heavens and new earth).

There are two resurrections and two judgements -

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: (Revelation 20:4-6)

 

[Rachel20]

How is a gathering of the elect from "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" not a description of the rapture?

It pictures the gathering of both those left in natural bodies (uttermost parts of earth) and those already died or raptured before them (uttermost parts of heaven). These are the ones entering his long promised rest - the thousand year millennial reign/sabbath. It is clear from OT passages that babies will be born on earth during this time and will have long physical lives - this requires there be saved left in natural bodies.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

@John Helpher here's a question for you. I'll define post-trib rapture belief in its most typical form - the church meets the Lord in the air, does a u-turn, and comes back with him to the earth (no time in New Jerusalem for the marriage supper as you posited earlier) where the Sheep & Goad judgement commences and those righteous sheep enter the earthly millennium. So here's the question - if those sheep are righteous, why aren't they raptured? The post-trib view has to create a third category of people that isn't scriptural - (1) the righteous that get raptured, (2) the wicked, and (3) the righteous that aren't righteous enough to be raptured, but aren't wicked enough to be destroyed. What is the scriptural basis for this third group?

The post-trib, amillennialist view has no such problems as you describe here.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Manmade beliefs invented by manmade denominations change regularly, which is why there are more than 6,000 Protestant denominations, each claiming to be based on "the Bible alone", yet the teaching of each one contradicting the teaching of the others. Rapture, pre-trib or in any other form, is a manmade belief no Christian on Earth ever heard of until a few hundred years ago. So it is no surprise that various Protestant denominations disagree about it, as they do with so many other unbiblical beliefs.

 

[Rachel20]

The post-trib, amillennialist view has no such problems as you describe here.

Sure, because the amillennialist spiritualizes the thousand years, just like John parabolizes the S&G judgement lol

 

[tranquil]

Tribulation and wrath are two different issues. The Revelation separates them into two different categories; the Great Tribulation is described by 7 trumpets whereas the wrath is described with 7 bowls.

So, post-trib means after the tribulation. Then the wrath.

The 'great tribulation' is the 7 Trumpets & 7 bowls of wrath. The 'day of wrath' starts at the 6th Seal. There is a separation of people who are going into the great tribulation & those 'coming out' of it (not a 'whisked away' rapture, but being gathered). The people receiving wrath (being punished) during the Trumpets are the group of people worshiping the abomination.

6 Trumpets are a partial wrath because only one particular group has agreed to worship it. At the 7th Trumpet, everyone who is going to worship it will be doing so. Put differently, there is a short con & a long con. It would be analogous to Republicans & Democrats. For example, if there is statue of Trump because he 'saved us from the evil Deep State', there would be a line of Republicans out the door worshiping him. And of course, Democrats and others would be spared going into the great tribulation (because they hate him). But the long con, after the 2 witnesses 1260 days, is to entice those that were not included in the 1st short con. So, in this example, the false prophet would appeal to the poor & Democrats, etc. The 'son of perdition' would 'worship his father' with a statue of Trump. This way 'both sides' of the beast are captured.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days" refers to immediately after the abomination is revealed & after the tribulation of the false christ = the 1st 4 trumpets (stars fall at the 1st, 2nd & 3rd Trumpet; 'powers of the heavens shaken' at the 4th Trumpet. People are gathered at the 7th Seal. At the 2nd meaning, after the tribulation of the false christs, the stars fall at Revelation 12:4 and the 7 bowls of wrath.

 

[Douggg]

That is not possible.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The seventh trumpet clearly signals the time when God's "wrath is come" and the time of the judgment of the wicked and reward for the saints. How can there be a time, times and half a time following that? That isn't possible. The time for the judgment of the wicked and reward for the saints is after the thousand years (Rev 20:11-21:4).

The bowls of God's wrath are in the time/times/half time period that Satan will have left on this earth.

While that is going on here on earth. The raptured/resurrected saints in heaven are receiving rewards for their service to Christ, in heaven.

It is on my chart near the middle.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

"judgement of the Gentiles" is used interchangeably with "sheep & goat", because it pictures the "nations" being gathered and Israel was never reckoned among the nations (Numbers 23:9)

Nope. It's not a judgment of the Gentiles. It's not a judgment of nations, it's a judgment of all people from all nations. The rewards and punishment described clearly only apply to individuals and not entire nations.

Please tell me how you interpret the following passage:

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

This very clearly indicates that God has set a day (one day) when He will judge the entire world (all people everywhere) "with justice by the man He has appointed". When do you believe that day will occur?

It's required for fulfillment of certain Old Testament passages like Isaiah 65:20-25

Again, Isaiah 65:17-25 has to do with the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth. No one will have mortal bodies at that time as at that point "there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain" (Rev 21:4).

There are two resurrections and two judgements -

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: (Revelation 20:4-6)

There are not two mass resurrections and judgments separated by a thousand years. The premil doctrine contradicts a great deal of scripture.

Jesus said very clearly in John 5:28-29 that "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice" with the saved being raised unto life and the unsaved being raised unto damnation.

You have two hours coming when the dead will be raised, but scripture only talks about one hour or one event in which all of the dead will be raised bodily.

When all of the dead, saved and lost, are resurrected they will then be part of the day of judgment that God has set (Acts 17:30-31) and that is described in Matthew 25:31-46 and Rev 20:11-Rev 21:4.

The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Compare the passage above to this verse:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Can you see that Revelation 1:5-6 says that Jesus is already reigning now and that we (believers) are already priests of God and of Christ in His kingdom?

Believers have part in Christ's resurrection (the first resurrection) when we're born again/saved.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

When a believer dies, their soul goes to be with Jesus in heaven to reign with Him there.

One other thing about Revelation 20:6. Notice that it says the second death has no power over those who have part in the first resurrection. Does the second death currently have any power over you or me? Not while we belong to Christ it doesn't. Does the second death have any power over the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven now? No, it does not because they are already guaranteed to avoid the second death, which is to be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15).

So, keeping in mind that the second death currently has no power over those who belong to Christ (whether dead or alive), why is it that you believe that one must be bodily resurrected in order for Revelation 20:6 to occur?

 

[Douggg]

Compare the passage above to this verse:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Can you see that Revelation 1:5-6 says that Jesus is already reigning now and that we (believers) are already priests of God and of Christ in His kingdom?

Believers have part in Christ's resurrection (the first resurrection) when we're born again/saved.

Why don't you read the verses before Revelation 20:6?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Rachel20]

... why is it that you believe that one must be bodily resurrected in order for Revelation 20:6 to occur?

It's not a matter of what must happen, but what will happen. I believe scripture indicates a bodily resurrection is what will happen -

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:22-23

 

[Jamdoc]

No. Tribulation and wrath are different. The Great Tribulation is marked by 7 Trumpets. The wrath is marked by 7 vials (or bowls) of wrath and they each describe quite different events.

Also, consider revelation 11:15, the sounding of the 7th trumpet: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This is the return of Jesus. Paul also notes that Jesus returns at the last Trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52). Jesus himself describes a time of great tribulation such as the world has never seen, and then says, when he returns, it will be with the trump of God (Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29-31).

Also note in Revelation 11:18, just after the 7th Trumpet sounds and Jesus takes over, it says the nations were angry and "your wrath has come". Do you see that? Seventh Trumpet, Jesus takes over, then the wrath comes to be poured out on a spiritually desolate world (because all God's people have been taken up at the sounding of the 7th trumpet).

Then, compare this with Revelation 19 which starts with the marriage supper of the lamb. The saints are there, participating in the marriage supper. There's a lot of praise for God and celebrating, at which time the saints are given new clothing, clean linen, fine and white, which is described as the righteousness of the saints (Revelation 19:8).

Shortly after this, all these saints gather behind Jesus to prepare for war. They ride down from the place they were raptured up to (Revelation 21:2 describes this place a "New Jerusalem come down from Heaven" and then gives a lengthy description of this "city's" physical attributes). The war they're riding down to is the battle of Armageddon, the last bowl of God's wrath.

Two simultaneous events happening at concurrently; up in New Jerusalem, the marriage supper of the lamb is happening. Down on a spiritually desolate earth, the wrath is being poured out, both of which culminate in the battle of Armageddon.

Here's what you're missing, Jesus already returned in the clouds after the 6th seal
Revelation 6:12-17 shows the same cosmological signs of the return of Jesus in the clouds as Matthew 24. Especially notice how in verse 16, the people on the earth are mourning because they see someone sitting on a throne in the sky. They then know that His wrath is come. So the 7 trumpets, are the wrath of God. Not tribulations. The tribulations are why there were martyrs after the 5th seal. Note in chapter 7, the multitude of people in heaven praising God. One of the elders asks John who they were, and John tells them they are those who came out of the great tribulations (Revelation 7:14). This is before any trumpets are blown. This tells us the timing of the tribulations, rapture, and wrath of God, in that order. You're right that Jesus comes again in Revelation 11:18. That coming I imagine while it's not mentioned specifically, was on the mount of olives riding a white horse. It's given more detail in Revelation 19.

Essentially if you read chapters 4-11 as being 1 Narrative, you can see the chronology as being the beginning of sorrows (first few seals), the great tribulations (5th and maybe 4th seals), the coming of Jesus in the clouds (6th seal), the 144,000 Iraelites, the rapture (second half of chapter 7 shows the results of it), the wrath of God (the 7 trumpets, kicked off by the 7th seal), a great earthquake (during which the remnant of Israel is saved), and the return of Christ to claim the world as His kingdom, and final judgement. The book is not Chronological all the way through. Chapter 11 is the end. Revelation 10:7 actually clarifies this for us, that the 7th trumpet is the end, it wraps up the mystery of God.
Otherwise if you believe Revelation to go in chronological order Jesus claims the world as His kingdom... and then hands it over to Satan and the Antichrist for 42 months? Nonsense. Revelation 11:15 says He rules forever and ever. Otherwise also you have 2 groups of 144,000, 2 massive earthquakes in Jerusalem, 2 great tribulations, 2 times Jesus appearing in the clouds and rapturing people (Saints in heaven in Chapter 15 as well, after Jesus appeared in the clouds in Chapter 14... so yes, the rapture is shown in 2 different ways but at the same time between the tribulations (the mark of the beast in chapter 13) and the wrath (the vials)), and Jesus claiming the world as His kingdom twice (chapter 11 and chapter 19), and 2 final judgements (chapter 11, chapter 20)