Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[Strathos]

No, I merely doubt they'd do something nearly that specific, like if you said Australians dressed up as Brazilians or such, it's not impossible, it's just highly unlikely. You really think Chinese are in the business of doing that kind of imitation of Westerners instead of, you know, just dressing in business suits and such, which aren't a European thing, strictly speaking?

Dressing up in costumes for fun is an activity done worldwide.

 

[Aldebaran]

Can you even consider the fact that you could be wrong or are you going to continue to be stubborn on having a discussion with anyone that disagrees in terms of experience about culture and how it treats people of color?

"about culture and how it treats people of color"
Right there is a vague statement. Got any specifics? Any at all?

Because otherwise, I'm done, you're not helping, you are enabling a system that already favors you in the first place, of course you wouldn't care about changing it if you don't see a problem, but that's based in an idealized and isolated perspective that doesn't care about black people except insofar as they are "appropriate" to you. Or do you have something more nuanced to say about black people beyond stereotyping them?

If it favors me so much, then how do you explain how I can point to numerous black people who have lived in society in a far more favorable way than I have? See, you yourself assume that just because I'm white, I am favored. You're just employing racism just as you are accusing others of.

If it's such a vague word, then why can we find specific definitions of it? You don't seem to understand what a buzzword is or your dismissive attitude is more indication you don't care to change your perspective, but remain comfortable in the status quo that you prefer, because it doesn't challenge you

Those "definitions" are made by the "woke culture", which changes definitions of words at the drop of a hat. That's what makes their definitions vague, and really only meaningful to those who use those words and terminology to label the people they don't like or agree with.

 

[Aldebaran]

It's cultural appropriation, not sure why this has to be framed in such a way to try and get this "gotcha" moment of hypocrisy. It's about a power dynamic of a majority culture, which will vary across the world

"Cultural appropriation is the adoption of an element or elements of one culture or identity by members of another culture or identity. This can be controversial when members of a dominant culture appropriate from disadvantaged minority cultures"

This doesn't mean China is excluded from this anymore than if black people did the same stupid Halloween costume of a Native American headdress, it's still insulting by the idea that you can just utilize any and all elements of a culture equally, especially those of an ethnic or racial nature.

Where does the right to express yourself fit into all that? Don't people have the right to dress, talk, or live in a way that they feel comfortable with and allows them to express themselves in their own way?

 

[muichimotsu]

Dressing up in costumes for fun is an activity done worldwide.

And the problem is not all costumes are equal, unlike what people ignorantly assert because of their cultural privilege or just outright ignorance of cultural significance

 

[muichimotsu]

"about culture and how it treats people of color"
Right there is a vague statement. Got any specifics? Any at all?

You think there aren't any examples of people that espouse ideas that are ignorant stereotypes about black people and, oddly enough, always are white people? The fundamental claim to be falsified is one that would suggest we are purely in a vacuum and have no cultural influences on our opinions at all, which is ludicrous

If it favors me so much, then how do you explain how I can point to numerous black people who have lived in society in a far more favorable way than I have? See, you yourself assume that just because I'm white, I am favored. You're just employing racism just as you are accusing others of.

Because you're cherry picking what favors your preconception instead of honestly looking at the whole, which doesn't lend credence to your claim at all, even for people of color who are successful, yet regarded with suspicion by people who buy into ignorant ideas and then "apologize" because they behaved in a poor fashion instead of acknowledging they had a mistaken stereotype about black people from their privileged or ignorant experiences coloring their understanding of people of color

That's not racism, mostly because I'm not assuming the kind of favor you and others constantly strawman as privilege. It isn't a guarantee of financial success, it is a bias towards white people in giving them treatment that doesn't regard them the same as black people purely because of their skin color, that they are the norm

Those "definitions" are made by the "woke culture", which changes definitions of words at the drop of a hat. That's what makes their definitions vague, and really only meaningful to those who use those words and terminology to label the people they don't like or agree with.

Now you're just throwing out the buzzwords of "woke", without properly defining at all. And no, definitions change by usage, they aren't just redefined by a whim as you seem to think, but shift with understanding.

You not agreeing doesn't make the definitions automatically invalid, you have to demonstrate the problem in the usage and understanding, otherwise you're appealing to mere popularity

 

[muichimotsu]

Where does the right to express yourself fit into all that? Don't people have the right to dress, talk, or live in a way that they feel comfortable with and allows them to express themselves in their own way?

What someone individually feels comfortable with is not always 1) actually reflecting any consideration of others in their experiences and 2) can very much be a product of privilege and ignorance in the first place and essentially show how lacking in empathy they are to someone not in their in group (as in not white)

Freedom is not absolute in terms of conduct, to suggest otherwise is asinine, versus belief, which in itself is not harmful, only when it informs actions that do infringe on others' rights.

 

[Ken-1122]

Except you seem to think that a term cannot evolve at all and are insisting on ONE definition, which is dishonest. And have you really read it? It seems like you're trying to ignore that prevailing norms is not the same as legislation, but still fits in the argument that an institution or system can be racist and people can enable it by their ignorance, they're not mutual exclusive, you're still regarding institutions as purely about legislation, which is inaccurate

You keep claiming people who are part of an institution, who violate the policies, structures and laws of the institution in order to impose their racist agendas on others, as an example of institutional racism. If they violate the policy of the institution in order to commit these acts, how can you blame the act on the institution?

And you're now throwing out intersectionality, big surprise, because you seem to want to reduce everything to one trait and that's the only reason it can be a problem, it can't be manifold, as in there's class struggles and also struggles of racial interactions that are compounded by the former in favoring white people

I’m not talking about intersectionality, I’m talking about institutional racism only

Oh, screw off with this dishonest tripe, they did the same thing: they both raped a woman, they are not different except in that they were different races, that's all.

Yes, but their judgment is based on a lot more like different judges different states, possibly different laws concerning punishment for rape, different incomes thus the ability to afford better lawyers, etc.

I didn't pretend it was the norm,

If this is not the norm, why did you even bring it up?

but you're dishonestly saying they are different things,

I didn’t say they were different things, I said the judgment was possibly based on things other than the fact that they raped someone.

Not all judges are the same by your own admission, but that doesn't mean there isn't any kind of trend we can observe with more study,

Then do more study and quit jumping to conclusions that it must be about racism

you're immediately dismissing that as even a possibility and make this about an isolated set of incidents,

I did not dismiss the possibility, but you need to make a better case than “some black guy in one state committed the same crime as a white guy in a different state and the black guy got a stiffer sentence” That’s cherry-picking; which is a very poor argument to make.

But you cannot honestly do that and claim you're looking at the same thing, because an institution is its people and its history, it isn't in a vacuum, that it tantamount to historical revisionism.

No. There is a big difference between an individual person and an institution. A police station is an institution. A school is an institution. A Church, a business, a Charity is an institution. You can’t call an entire institution racist because a bigot joins it, goes against the rules of the institution by inflicting his bigotry on the customers.

 

[Strathos]

And the problem is not all costumes are equal, unlike what people ignorantly assert because of their cultural privilege or just outright ignorance of cultural significance

You were arguing that such things don't happen in China to any significant extent.

 

[muichimotsu]

You keep claiming people who are part of an institution, who violate the policies, structures and laws of the institution in order to impose their racist agendas on others, as an example of institutional racism. If they violate the policy of the institution in order to commit these acts, how can you blame the act on the institution?

Who says the policy is always right? WHat is law is not always moral, that's common sense, practically. The institution and people who enable it are intertwined

I’m not talking about intersectionality, I’m talking about institutional racism only

Like people and institutions, you can't say that intersectionality is irrelevant when institutional racism affects people in a way that also can play into problems of ethnic bias, like how Hispanics are treated badly and may also experience the kind of systemic racism that applies technically to whites in the context of Hispanic as an ethnic identity rather than a race.

Trying to skew the discussion is, by definition, goalpost shifting, since you don't want to acknowledge other factors that play into how institutional/systemic racism manifests and how it affects groups in a way that also plays into related issues, like gender identity, etc. A black woman and black man are not going to be treated the same in terms of institutional racism because those prejudices applied to black people are worse in terms of a society that also favors men over women, it's not reducible purely to race

Yes, but their judgment is based on a lot more like different judges different states, possibly different laws concerning punishment for rape, different incomes thus the ability to afford better lawyers, etc.

I never said it was purely race, why do you keep putting words in my mouth like I was reducing this to that scope?

If this is not the norm, why did you even bring it up?

Because racism manifests in different ways: or do you think all racists have to use racial slurs? Because they don't, that's just the more obvious ones

I didn’t say they were different things, I said the judgment was possibly based on things other than the fact that they raped someone.

Then choose your words better, because that was not remotely how it appeared in your phrasing. They both raped women, the factor in terms of punishment should be that and not someone's capacity to hire a better lawyer or their skin color or socioeconomic status. Do you remember how the white guy was given his sentence because the judge, in his bias, insisted that the punishment otherwise would've "ruined his life"? That's blatant favoritism, as if you should just be given a light sentence for sexually violating someone because, "Oh no, think about their future," when that should've been the case in the first place. Not saying a rapist cannot be redeemed by serving their sentence, but they are not aided by being lenient with punishment, rather than an idea of punishment that can lead to rehabilitation

Then do more study and quit jumping to conclusions that it must be about racism

Your claim it isn't about racism requires the same amount of study you ask of me, so try not framing this like you're automatically in the right

I did not dismiss the possibility, but you need to make a better case than “some black guy in one state committed the same crime as a white guy in a different state and the black guy got a stiffer sentence” That’s cherry-picking; which is a very poor argument to make.

Have you honestly even looked to consider that your idealized rose colored glasses perception of the world might be mistaken and try to find evidence rather than looking only for stuff, like PragerU that fits your preconceptions, because you're "rational" instead of rationalizing?

No. There is a big difference between an individual person and an institution. A police station is an institution. A school is an institution. A Church, a business, a Charity is an institution. You can’t call an entire institution racist because a bigot joins it, goes against the rules of the institution by inflicting his bigotry on the customers.

I didn't equivocate a person and the institution, I said people factor into an institution's shifts, the institution is not in a vacuum, nor are people.

You don't know that the institution's "rules" aren't rooted in racist ideas that treat black people like they must be criminals. Social norms play into an institution as much as their official protocol, saying otherwise is naive

 

[muichimotsu]

You were arguing that such things don't happen in China to any significant extent.

By all means, point out an example. Never claimed it was impossible, but it's about as likely as the isolated examples I can point out where Japanese or Chinese people dress in Nazi uniforms as a form of cosplay without the perspective of what the Nazis really did or thinking it's just costuming

 

[Strathos]

By all means, point out an example. Never claimed it was impossible, but it's about as likely as the isolated examples I can point out where Japanese or Chinese people dress in Nazi uniforms as a form of cosplay without the perspective of what the Nazis really did or thinking it's just costuming

Spoiler

 

[Ken-1122]

Who says the policy is always right? WHat is law is not always moral, that's common sense, practically. The institution and people who enable it are intertwined

What are you talking about? That has nothing to do with anything I said. How about if you address what I said?

Like people and institutions, you can't say that intersectionality is irrelevant when institutional racism affects people in a way that also can play into problems of ethnic bias, like how Hispanics are treated badly and may also experience the kind of systemic racism that applies technically to whites in the context of Hispanic as an ethnic identity rather than a race.
Trying to skew the discussion is, by definition, goalpost shifting, since you don't want to acknowledge other factors that play into how institutional/systemic racism manifests and how it affects groups in a way that also plays into related issues, like gender identity, etc. A black woman and black man are not going to be treated the same in terms of institutional racism because those prejudices applied to black people are worse in terms of a society that also favors men over women, it's not reducible purely to race

Quit trying to change the subject, and make a case for institutional racism; something you have yet to do.

Because racism manifests in different ways: or do you think all racists have to use racial slurs? Because they don't, that's just the more obvious ones

This discussion is not about whether or not racism exists, it’s about whether institutional racism exists.

Your claim it isn't about racism requires the same amount of study you ask of me, so try not framing this like you're automatically in the right

I am not the one claiming to know why the judges ruled the way they did, that’s your claim. I’m only being skeptical of your claim

You don't know that the institution's "rules" aren't rooted in racist ideas that treat black people like they must be criminals.

You’re right; I don’t know. Do you? Because if you don’t how do you justify calling the institution racist?

Social norms play into an institution as much as their official protocol, saying otherwise is naive

Racism is no longer a social norm

 

[muichimotsu]

Spoiler

Okay, I'm pretty sure that's a cowboy hat and a suit, which isn't the same as stereotypical cowboy wear and I'm not even from the Southwest. That's a gross exaggeration from what you claimed, which is not remotely what this is, which is little different from Japanese wearing Western clothes: not all clothes are ethnic in nature, especially if we're talking about more specific things that have that element

I'm no fashion expert, but the exchange of culture in terms of a Western wearing, say, Japanese or Chinese clothes, is entirely different than the context where they just wear it because it's trendy or other such ideas that are only okay because of colonialist ideas, where white people are seemingly just permitted to take ethnic clothes, like, say, samurai armor for another Japanese example that's more directly cultural, and claim it's appreciation instead of appropriation.

 

[muichimotsu]

What are you talking about? That has nothing to do with anything I said. How about if you address what I said?

What you said is that an institution is somehow in a vacuum independent of the people that run it, which is insane and inaccurate to boot

Quit trying to change the subject, and make a case for institutional racism; something you have yet to do.

Only because you seem to just think culture is so malleable it doesn't matter in regards to norms, which you don't remotely acknowledge as persisting in history, because "People aren't just shouting the n word all the time, thus there's no racism at all,"

This discussion is not about whether or not racism exists, it’s about whether institutional racism exists.

And you're intentionally skewing the definition instead of taking any definition I give. Here's one, is this any more compelling in terms of a starting discussion? I never claimed expertise, I think you're putting words in my mouth again

"The collective failure of an organization to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour that amount to discrimination through prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness, and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people."

I am not the one claiming to know why the judges ruled the way they did, that’s your claim. I’m only being skeptical of your claim

I'm not claiming absolutely either, more strawmanning, I said it was entirely possible that was part of their judgment. Judges can be objective in a manner of speaking, not absolutely so, their social background and biases are part of their judgment, even if it's more subconscious in nature. Or are you just saying you don't have ANY associations about people based on their race?

You’re right; I don’t know. Do you? Because if you don’t how do you justify calling the institution racist?

When the treatment is unequal and you can find examples even over the last several years from police officers alone in terms of biased treatment towards black people in various manners, not to mention the issue has existed and been brought up by people since the 90s in Family Matters. Do you think racial profiling doesn't exist? That isn't an institutional thing as for policy, it's a bias that is encouraged and enabled by people not questioning it for fear of being ostracized

Racism is no longer a social norm

Racism is not a one size fits all idea, that's the problem here, you're characterizing it in one particular fashion and because you don't see that, you dismiss any other claims of racism, which is dishonest and goalpost shifting, again

 

[Strathos]

Okay, I'm pretty sure that's a cowboy hat and a suit, which isn't the same as stereotypical cowboy wear and I'm not even from the Southwest. That's a gross exaggeration from what you claimed, which is not remotely what this is, which is little different from Japanese wearing Western clothes: not all clothes are ethnic in nature, especially if we're talking about more specific things that have that element

I'm no fashion expert, but the exchange of culture in terms of a Western wearing, say, Japanese or Chinese clothes, is entirely different than the context where they just wear it because it's trendy or other such ideas that are only okay because of colonialist ideas, where white people are seemingly just permitted to take ethnic clothes, like, say, samurai armor for another Japanese example that's more directly cultural, and claim it's appreciation instead of appropriation.

Sounds like special pleading to me.

Why don't you outline a hypothetical scenario in which Chinese people would be, in your opinion, guilty of 'cultural appropriation' of American culture?

 

[muichimotsu]

Sounds like special pleading to me.

Why don't you outline a hypothetical scenario in which Chinese people would be, in your opinion, guilty of 'cultural appropriation' of American culture?

Not every bit of cultural insensitivity has to involve cultural appropriation, and me not being able to bring one up does not invalidate the claim. Also, American culture is not really a thing to the specific nature that is referred to with ethnic culture, because American is a nationality rather than an ethnicity, so you've doubly missed the point

You're engaging in goalpost shifting that suggests it has to be equal or it isn't real, when, I'm pretty sure any historian worth their salt is going to point out that the majority of problems in terms of race relations tie back to white people colonizing the world under the pretense of manifest destiny. Or do you not think that was a thing?

 

[Strathos]

Not every bit of cultural insensitivity has to involve cultural appropriation, and me not being able to bring one up does not invalidate the claim. Also, American culture is not really a thing to the specific nature that is referred to with ethnic culture, because American is a nationality rather than an ethnicity, so you've doubly missed the point

You're engaging in goalpost shifting that suggests it has to be equal or it isn't real, when, I'm pretty sure any historian worth their salt is going to point out that the majority of problems in terms of race relations tie back to white people colonizing the world under the pretense of manifest destiny. Or do you not think that was a thing?

Oh, so in other words, only white people can be guilty of this 'crime'. Sure sounds like a double standard to me.

 

[Aldebaran]

Because you're cherry picking what favors your preconception instead of honestly looking at the whole, which doesn't lend credence to your claim at all, even for people of color who are successful, yet regarded with suspicion by people who buy into ignorant ideas and then "apologize" because they behaved in a poor fashion instead of acknowledging they had a mistaken stereotype about black people from their privileged or ignorant experiences coloring their understanding of people of color

When you say, "the whole, you're once again classifying white people as a whole, and then attributing things to them that are derogatory toward those who are black. You're being quite hypocritical in doing that while talking against white people doing the same.

That's not racism, mostly because I'm not assuming the kind of favor you and others constantly strawman as privilege. It isn't a guarantee of financial success, it is a bias towards white people in giving them treatment that doesn't regard them the same as black people purely because of their skin color, that they are the norm

Again, I ask you to give specific examples.

Now you're just throwing out the buzzwords of "woke", without properly defining at all. And no, definitions change by usage, they aren't just redefined by a whim as you seem to think, but shift with understanding.

They shift with "re-imagining" as the woke like to say.

You not agreeing doesn't make the definitions automatically invalid, you have to demonstrate the problem in the usage and understanding, otherwise you're appealing to mere popularity

Nor do your claims about "white privilege" hold any water if you can't even be specific about what you're talking about--or come up with any remedies to the supposed issue. All you've done is imply that people who are white need to be ashamed of who they are based on their skin color as a way to virtue signal, and that's no solution at all. It only justifies racism of a different flavor.

 

[Aldebaran]

What someone individually feels comfortable with is not always 1) actually reflecting any consideration of others in their experiences and 2) can very much be a product of privilege and ignorance in the first place and essentially show how lacking in empathy they are to someone not in their in group (as in not white)

1) Expressing oneself doesn't have to reflect anything about others. That's why it's called "expressing oneself".

2)Everyone, regardless of their race, has the "privilege" (or more accurately, the right) to express themselves as they see fit. Therefore, a black person can freely express themselves just as a white person can. There's nothing "privilege" about it regarding being white.

Freedom is not absolute in terms of conduct, to suggest otherwise is asinine, versus belief, which in itself is not harmful, only when it informs actions that do infringe on others' rights.

How would you suggest taking away a person's freedom to express themselves if it doesn't fit with your ideas of what limits should be placed on it?

 

[muichimotsu]

Oh, so in other words, only white people can be guilty of this 'crime'. Sure sounds like a double standard to me.

No, white people are more commonly guilty of it, that doesn't mean it is impossible otherwise, because cultural appropriation in its common definition explicitly references a majority culture, which is not going to be white people, as in America. Japanese don't do cultural appropriation to my knowledge, but it's not impossible given the homogeneous nature of the culture and even ignorance that results from that in a way that makes America look embarrassing with our supposed diversity, yet also enabling people to just do whatever they want culturally because of that "freedom" that is confused as liberty.