Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[muichimotsu]

Same as LGBT then.. These qualities aren't innate and there is no scientific basis for them

Actually I'm pretty sure there is scientific basis for sexual orientation AND gender identity, you insisting there isn't doesn't make it so, nor does selectively ignoring scientific investigations that don't fit your presupposition. Bring your evidence, or I don't need to take these claims seriously, merely the ramblings of someone who suffers from Dunning Kruger

 

[Aldebaran]

Discussing this subject with you is one aspect, I don't need to tell you what I do, it isn't your business

Well, it's not much of a discussion if you don't have any specific solutions to vague problems.

You taking stereotypes of black people and suggesting that is normal is outright wrong, that's not how stereotypes work. And no, this isn't pitting a race against another, it's making one race acknowledge their privilege and actually be better than they claim they are in supposedly "helping" black people, when they do the opposite

"Be better". Now, trying being specific about that. Otherwise, it would be just as fair to tell people who are black to just "be better". However, I can come up with many specifics as to how they can do that, but you write them off as being stereotypical. Is that why you refuse to be specific in your condescending attitude against white people?

 

[muichimotsu]

I used a secular resource because they are an atheist. There is no such thing as race, it’s a social construct both scientifically and Biblically. All people are equal and came from Adam and Eve. The genes God gave us have nothing to do with the sins that people commit.

Wow, strawmanning, good job. I never claimed that race was a biological or genetic aspect, nor did @Ken-1122, so you're outright lying about what we said in regards to race. A social construct does not make a concept invalid in applying it to our understanding of humans, you're just throwing it out and then using an esoteric meaning to suggest some "equality" when it's more you trying to be colorblind

 

[Aldebaran]

Chinese are a minority group in most of the world, the point is how white people seem to think they can get away with just using ethnic
"costumes" and it just being permissible based on Halloween as a context, when it really isn't.

2 billion of them in China alone hardly makes them a minority group in most of the world.

 

[muichimotsu]

Well, it's not much of a discussion if you don't have any specific solutions to vague problems.

It's not a vague problem if you had any real sense of perspective to consider that your experience is not the same as a black person's, but your privilege is blinding you to even acknowledging the possibility that society does not regard people equally and in ignorance of skin color or other traits

"Be better". Now, trying being specific about that. Otherwise, it would be just as fair to tell people who are black to just "be better". However, I can come up with many specifics as to how they can do that, but you write them off as being stereotypical. Is that why you refuse to be specific in your condescending attitude against white people?

No, I didn't remotely say that, black people who are struggling with cultural alienation are a product of systemic racism that treats them like they just have to deal with white majority culture and assimilate that way instead of ever giving them resources to look into their culture in a way that is equitable and not biased towards those who are already affluent by being more "white" and thus "appropriate"

When you generalize all black people as being gangsters as you have already shown with your terrible idea that somehow that's how more black people act or that it's expected of them, you're showing how little perspective you really have on black people or that you seem to just want them to fit into one box you think is "appropriate"

It's not condescending when the problem is a bias you don't even want to acknowledge is possible because then it would mean acknowledging you have a privileged status in society instead of the delusion you're under that society is purely equal (hint, it's not)

 

[muichimotsu]

2 billion of them in China alone hardly makes them a minority group in most of the world.

That's a regional thing, you're being dishonest to suggest I was referring to that versus their distribution across the rest of the world. It's like suggesting I think black people are a minority when you can say, "Oh, but there's a whole bunch in Africa," which is equally obtuse and outright disingenuous

 

[Aldebaran]

It's not a vague problem if you had any real sense of perspective to consider that your experience is not the same as a black person's, but your privilege is blinding you to even acknowledging the possibility that society does not regard people equally and in ignorance of skin color or other traits

Yeah, yeah. "Privilege".
Again, be specific.

No, I didn't remotely say that, black people who are struggling with cultural alienation are a product of systemic racism that treats them like they just have to deal with white majority culture and assimilate that way instead of ever giving them resources to look into their culture in a way that is equitable and not biased towards those who are already affluent by being more "white" and thus "appropriate"

More vague buzzwords.

 

[muichimotsu]

Yeah, yeah. "Privilege".
Again, be specific.

Can you even consider the fact that you could be wrong or are you going to continue to be stubborn on having a discussion with anyone that disagrees in terms of experience about culture and how it treats people of color?

Because otherwise, I'm done, you're not helping, you are enabling a system that already favors you in the first place, of course you wouldn't care about changing it if you don't see a problem, but that's based in an idealized and isolated perspective that doesn't care about black people except insofar as they are "appropriate" to you. Or do you have something more nuanced to say about black people beyond stereotyping them?

More vague buzzwords.

If it's such a vague word, then why can we find specific definitions of it? You don't seem to understand what a buzzword is or your dismissive attitude is more indication you don't care to change your perspective, but remain comfortable in the status quo that you prefer, because it doesn't challenge you[/QUOTE]

 

[Strathos]

Chinese are a minority group in most of the world, the point is how white people seem to think they can get away with just using ethnic
"costumes" and it just being permissible based on Halloween as a context, when it really isn't.

What if Chinese people in China dress up as American stereotypes (Revolutionary war soldiers, cowboys, etc.)?

 

[muichimotsu]

What if Chinese people in China dress up as American stereotypes (Revolutionary war soldiers, cowboys, etc.)?

It's cultural appropriation, not sure why this has to be framed in such a way to try and get this "gotcha" moment of hypocrisy. It's about a power dynamic of a majority culture, which will vary across the world

"Cultural appropriation is the adoption of an element or elements of one culture or identity by members of another culture or identity. This can be controversial when members of a dominant culture appropriate from disadvantaged minority cultures"

This doesn't mean China is excluded from this anymore than if black people did the same stupid Halloween costume of a Native American headdress, it's still insulting by the idea that you can just utilize any and all elements of a culture equally, especially those of an ethnic or racial nature.

 

[Strathos]

It's cultural appropriation, not sure why this has to be framed in such a way to try and get this "gotcha" moment of hypocrisy. It's about a power dynamic of a majority culture, which will vary across the world

"Cultural appropriation is the adoption of an element or elements of one culture or identity by members of another culture or identity. This can be controversial when members of a dominant culture appropriate from disadvantaged minority cultures"

This doesn't mean China is excluded from this anymore than if black people did the same stupid Halloween costume of a Native American headdress, it's still insulting by the idea that you can just utilize any and all elements of a culture equally, especially those of an ethnic or racial nature.

I really wouldn't care if Chinese people did that, and I doubt most other Americans would either.

 

[Ken-1122]

If you're going to narrow it down that much, of course you're going to have a difficult time finding the examples you want:

Yes it has to be narrowed down that much if you want to claim systemic/institutional racism

And I didn't say it was strictly due to race, that's putting words into my mouth,

If it isn’t about race, how can you call it racism?

I've looked into sentencing problems for Hispanic and black youths and how the privileged status of many white families would let them go back to their parents' custody, while the underprivileged Hispanic/black would then be put into custody, sometimes tried as an adult, through no fault of their own and because of a system that is horrible in the outcomes for non white people.

When you speak of privileged white families, are you talking about white families with money? When you speak of underprivileged black families, are you talkin about black families without money? That sounds like an economical issue, not a racial one.

I didn't make that specific a claim, I said in terms of the sentencing severity, which ironically I just remembered and found the example I'm thinking of, for 2 college students, one white and one black, convicted of the same crime, and yet one is given a much lighter sentence than the other, guess which one was white?

KING: Brock Turner and Cory Batey, two college athletes who raped unconscious women, show how race and privilege affect sentences

Are we “cherry-picking” or what? One guy goes to one of the top Universities in the world located in California the other to some private University in Tennessee. Which family do you suppose has more money? If you want to make your case you need to pick guys in the same income range, convicted in the same Court, by the same Judge. And if you want to prove institutional racism, you need to find something in the court that requires the Judge to judge one guy more harshly due to his skin color.

 

[Ken-1122]

Wearing a culturally specific costume is not the same as particular elements that are able to be shared in the first place. But the intent is also important in the idea that a cultural exchange has to be genuinely equal and not just, "Oh I'm white, it's okay I can wear this poncho and not be condescending to Mexicans at all,"

Seems to me it is usually white people who are more offended by cultural appropriation than the people they are trying to protect!

 

[muichimotsu]

I really wouldn't care if Chinese people did that, and I doubt most other Americans would either.

I mean, when you bring up such an unlikely situation, of course it's going to seem ridiculous and you can dismiss the whole idea out of turn by a false equivocation, which is dishonest and fallacious.

 

[muichimotsu]

Yes it has to be narrowed down that much if you want to claim systemic/institutional racism

You're taking it far too literally in the idea that an institution in itself has agency, when it is people that encourage those norms in an institution, the institution is not an entity unto itself

If it isn’t about race, how can you call it racism?

It can be about race without being exclusively about race, you're trying to make it all or nothing, that's not how a social privilege works, there are layers of socioeconomimc privilege, but moreso social regard and how stereotypes are used less versus another group, etc.

When you speak of privileged white families, are you talking about white families with money? When you speak of underprivileged black families, are you talkin about black families without money? That sounds like an economical issue, not a racial one.

No, I'm not talking purely about money, that's merely one manifestation that really is intersectional to the racial issue. Or do you not know anything about that? It's not that complicated a concept, even if it definitely involves a lot of factors to consider, but it's not invalid merely because it's complicated

Are we “cherry-picking” or what? One guy goes to one of the top Universities in the world located in California the other to some private University in Tennessee. Which family do you suppose has more money? If you want to make your case you need to pick guys in the same income range, convicted in the same Court, by the same Judge. And if you want to prove institutional racism, you need to find something in the court that requires the Judge to judge one guy more harshly due to his skin color.

If you're just going to keep shifting the goalposts, of course you're never going to give anyone responsibility for this and thus the whole accusation of injustice in any sense rings hollow on your end

It doesn't have to be the same judge or same income range, life is not that fair, you're ignoring that black people are not always afforded the kind of treatment white people are and that's part of the fundamental argument about systemic racism emphasizing equality over equity, the latter more just

No, it doesn't have to be the court itself, the judge can have those kinds of biases that are not even something he's conscious of as a privileged white person in the first place. You keep trying to divest this from people, but institutions are created BY people, they aren't in a vacuum like you want them to be

 

[muichimotsu]

Seems to me it is usually white people who are more offended by cultural appropriation than the people they are trying to protect!

Because the minorities have been, take a step back, marginalized by the majority group, they wouldn't consider it a problem if they were taught implicitly to accept it as normal that white people will just treat you like a joke or such, or even that it's not so bad, basically brainwashing.

The majority group is the one that may very well realize it first, it doesn't make the minority group's position invalid because a majority group makes the observation, though that's not always the case, minorities also being involved with studies that observe problems like microaggression and systemic racism

Also, PragerU is not exactly known for being entirely genuine with its idea that you can just find any person and they'll agree with your inquiries. Plus, I'd bet money this is the Ray Comfort school of selectively editing to find the marks that work for your preconception that, "Oh minorities are fine with it and it's white people that are too sensitive," when that isn't necessarily going to be indicated by footage that we have no reason to conclude it isn't edited from the raw to fit that narrative.

 

[Ken-1122]

You're taking it far too literally in the idea that an institution in itself has agency, when it is people that encourage those norms in an institution, the institution is not an entity unto itself

When Stokely Carmichael coined the term Institutional Racism, he was talking about the institution itself being racist; hence the name. The Jim Crow laws he was dealing with during that time were an example of institutional racism. Your description of people in the institutions being racist is just plane ole racism, not institutional racism.

It can be about race without being exclusively about race, you're trying to make it all or nothing, that's not how a social privilege works, there are layers of socioeconomimc privilege, but moreso social regard and how stereotypes are used less versus another group, etc.

If you gonna call it racism, it has to be about race. There is a big difference between Social economic privilege, and racism; don’t conflate the two.

No, I'm not talking purely about money, that's merely one manifestation that really is intersectional to the racial issue.

So is it your claim that black and white people living in the same neighborhood, same income bracket, committing the same crimes, sentenced by the same justice department will see different sentences?

If you're just going to keep shifting the goalposts, of course you're never going to give anyone responsibility for this and thus the whole accusation of injustice in any sense rings hollow on your end

I’m not shifting any goalposts. You point out a black guy from one side of the country who gets an unusually harsh sentence for something small, then a white person from another part of the country who gets an unusually light sentence for something really bad, then try to pretend these examples are the norm for all black and white people. That’s called cherry picking, because I can just as easily pick an example of a white guy who gets an extremely harsh sentence for something small, and a black guy who gets away with something really bad and try to pretend THAT is typical for all black and white people. Justice departments are not the same everywhere just because “X” gets a harsh sentence in one city doesn't mean it will receive such a sentence everywhere else.

It doesn't have to be the same judge or same income range,

It does, because we all know the more money you have, the more likely you can get away with a crime. And different judges rule differently; that's why the judge has to be the same

life is not that fair, you're ignoring that black people are not always afforded the kind of treatment white people are and that's part of the fundamental argument about systemic racism emphasizing equality over equity, the latter more just

You are wrong. Black people are afforded the same kind of treatment white people are.

No, it doesn't have to be the court itself, the judge can have those kinds of biases that are not even something he's conscious of as a privileged white person in the first place. You keep trying to divest this from people, but institutions are created BY people, they aren't in a vacuum like you want them to be

The reason I am trying to divest this from people is because institutional racism is about the institution being racist, not the people who are a part of it.

 

[muichimotsu]

When Stokely Carmichael coined the term Institutional Racism, he was talking about the institution itself being racist; hence the name. The Jim Crow laws he was dealing with during that time were an example of institutional racism. Your description of people in the institutions being racist is just plane ole racism, not institutional racism.

Except you seem to think that a term cannot evolve at all and are insisting on ONE definition, which is dishonest. And have you really read it? It seems like you're trying to ignore that prevailing norms is not the same as legislation, but still fits in the argument that an institution or system can be racist and people can enable it by their ignorance, they're not mutual exclusive, you're still regarding institutions as purely about legislation, which is inaccurate

If you gonna call it racism, it has to be about race. There is a big difference between Social economic privilege, and racism; don’t conflate the two.

And you're now throwing out intersectionality, big surprise, because you seem to want to reduce everything to one trait and that's the only reason it can be a problem, it can't be manifold, as in there's class struggles and also struggles of racial interactions that are compounded by the former in favoring white people

So is it your claim that black and white people living in the same neighborhood, same income bracket, committing the same crimes, sentenced by the same justice department will see different sentences?

Wow, major strawman, because that's not nearly how it works, that level of specificity is goalpost shifting to dismiss any claims of racism that don't fit in your little box and would prefer to look at America with rose colored glasses. Why is it so difficult for you to say America has problems in terms of something that you may just be privileged enough to have avoided versus others? This isn't an all or nothing situation, it's going to vary by individual, yet it's still within a broader societal context where the ideas prevail as norms that people continue to not question about how black people "are" or other nonsense that is reductive.

I’m not shifting any goalposts. You point out a black guy from one side of the country who gets an unusually harsh sentence for something small, then a white person from another part of the country who gets an unusually light sentence for something really bad, then try to pretend these examples are the norm for all black and white people. That’s called cherry picking, because I can just as easily pick an example of a white guy who gets an extremely harsh sentence for something small, and a black guy who gets away with something really bad and try to pretend THAT is typical for all black and white people. Justice departments are not the same everywhere just because “X” gets a harsh sentence in one city doesn't mean it will receive such a sentence everywhere else.

Oh, screw off with this dishonest tripe, they did the same thing: they both raped a woman, they are not different except in that they were different races, that's all. You're trying to constantly change the standards so you don't have to acknowledge it, because that would be too uncomfortable or you irrationally expect the kind of scientific precision that, while something in social science, does not remotely have that kind of precision required in what is a broader assessment of societal biases and mistreatment of black people over centuries.

I didn't pretend it was the norm, but you're dishonestly saying they are different things, they BOTH raped a woman, did you even read the story? Any differences are incidental in terms of the incident, they were both athletes who raped an unconscious woman and they were not remotely treated the same based primarily on their skin color

It does, because we all know the more money you have, the more likely you can get away with a crime. And different judges rule differently; that's why the judge has to be the same

You are wrong. Black people are afforded the same kind of treatment white people are.

Not all judges are the same by your own admission, but that doesn't mean there isn't any kind of trend we can observe with more study, you're immediately dismissing that as even a possibility and make this about an isolated set of incidents, which isn't how systemic racism is assessed, it is far broader, which does not make it invalid as a model

In your experience, perhaps, that's anecdotal and not supported by evidence you've brought forward, which is to say nothing in regards to that claim and outright lying in regards to the story I brought forward by suggesting they have to be the same to be judged as equivalent, when you're advocating some unrealistic standard of equality that is not how we assess social biases, because they don't work on the mathematical precision that natural sciences do.

The reason I am trying to divest this from people is because institutional racism is about the institution being racist, not the people who are a part of it.

But you cannot honestly do that and claim you're looking at the same thing, because an institution is its people and its history, it isn't in a vacuum, that it tantamount to historical revisionism.

 

[Strathos]

I mean, when you bring up such an unlikely situation, of course it's going to seem ridiculous and you can dismiss the whole idea out of turn by a false equivocation, which is dishonest and fallacious.

You think people don't dress up in costumes in China?

 

[muichimotsu]

You think people don't dress up in costumes in China?

No, I merely doubt they'd do something nearly that specific, like if you said Australians dressed up as Brazilians or such, it's not impossible, it's just highly unlikely. You really think Chinese are in the business of doing that kind of imitation of Westerners instead of, you know, just dressing in business suits and such, which aren't a European thing, strictly speaking?