Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

[Timtofly]

How do you interpret this passage:

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

I do not accept the modern translation of this verse.

As pointed out we are not supposed to attack a person physically nor personally. But government can be run by good people free of Satanic influence, or a government can be run by humans under Satan's influences. It is a battle of thought and prayer. Internet chat has opened up the fight to many humans. Not many in Paul's day could do much but pray.

Not to be too obsessive about the point, but if Amil think Satan is bound in sheol, are we fighting against God in heavenly places? Has God allowed evil in heaven? High places can only be government, because other parts of the verse states this directly. To force this point, are you willing to give up the point Satan is bound, and this verse is talking about Satan as our Adversary at the very throne of God?

Because the Adversary in heaven can be the only reason the modern translators extend this fight to the very throne of God. I would not accept this translation to prove a point Satan is not bound, because this passage is pointing out Satan's role as the devil and not the Adversary. I am just surprised you do not see how your acceptance contradicts your interpretation of Revelation 20. Satan has not been bound yet as mentioned in Revelation 20. This verse is not talking about demons and fallen angels in heaven. A bad translation is a bad translation. Of course there is proof that some in the US government in the last 100 years has dabbled with the occult. Inviting demons into the government is a thing. That is what the church is supposed to fight against.

 

[Timtofly]

Isn't death defeated at the time of the last trumpet? When do you believe the last trumpet will sound?

1 Corinthians 15:51
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

Death was defeated for those in Christ at the Cross. Physical death will not be ended until the GWT. The last role call of the Book of life. Death is cast into the lake of fire, and reality comes to an end. The whole timing of the second coming references God time and earth time. To God it is the last day. To humanity it is the last 1000 years. The trib starts the Day, the GWT ends the day. Being so literal as to recognize and account for every second is just being obsessive. Is that what it means to be too literal?

 

[Timtofly]

How are mortals going to survive the fire found below?


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.

And yet we have Matthew 26-28 showing us the death, burial, and resurrection. Harping on one detail and overlooking the Resurrection is not healthy.

 

[Timtofly]

Let's assume this was correct even though it's not. Does that mean no one will be saved after the second coming during a proposed earthly millennial kingdom? That would have to be the case if death has already been defeated and swallowed up for the saved before that.

Yes, salvation is completed in the 6th seal years before the 7th Trumpet. No one can be saved after the 6th seal. Many will be Resurrected though. That is why John gave us Revelation 20, immediately after chapter 19, and the end of the 7th Trumpet. Let's assume Revelation 20 is wrong, which it is not, Resurrection would happen before death and not after death. Death is only defeated when no more humans can physically die.

Death is a choice and always has been. Can you prove death is not a choice? Deuteronomy 30:19-20

19 “I call on heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have presented you with life and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore, choose life, so that you will live, you and your descendants,
20 loving Adonai your God, paying attention to what he says and clinging to him — for that is the purpose of your life! On this depends the length of time you will live in the land Adonai swore he would give to your ancestors Avraham, Yitz’chak and Ya‘akov.”

 

[Timtofly]

If only there were other scriptures that BABerean2 could use to support his claim. Oh, wait. There is. In 2 Peter 3:3-13, Peter teaches that fire will come down upon the entire earth when Christ returns. That fire will destroy all unbelievers including the scoffers that Peter mentioned who scoff at the possibility of Him coming back.

The fact that global destruction will come down when Christ returns was taught by Christ Himself as well in Matthew 24:36-39 where He said that just as all unbelievers were destroyed in Noah's day, "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man".

Yes, but Peter says one is ignorant if they overlook the fact the Day of the Lord is 1000 years. Jesus comes back to literal reign on earth for 1000 years. Then and only then will He deliver a kingdom fit for God and Death will be defeated. The end of the church is the end of Adam's punishment. It is not the end of God enjoying His creation. God will destroy those who destroyed the earth, but reward those who obeyed God and trusted God in Faith.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Anyone who gets saved after the second coming would still be able to be saved and thus death would be defeated for them.

What is the significance of 1 Cor 15:54 if people can still be saved and die after that? Your view makes that verse not mean much when in actuality it's a great cause for celebration because there will be no more death after that (compare 1 Cor 15:54 to Isaiah 25:8 and Rev 21:4).

How can death be no longer before it is destroyed? Have you forgotten the second death that is happening prior to death being destroyed?

But the second death doesn't stop happening when death is cast into the lake of fire. Those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast in after death is. So, your hyper-literal way of looking at this just doesn't work.

Paul was speaking only of the saved not the unsaved. There is no victory for the unsaved for they shall experience the second death and only after that does death cease to exist. Even in Amill death exists past the second coming.

But, he was still speaking of there being no more death for anyone at that point because he quoted Isaiah 25:8 which is also quoted here:

Revelation 21:4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That passage doesn't teach a global destruction of all unbelievers at the second coming. No passage does.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This is commonly mistaken for being the second coming but it is a different "day of the Lord". A quick search of the bible will reveal that many different days of the Lord, sometimes called the day of the Lord, other times we see the day of the Lord Jesus, and sometimes "the day of God". A day of the Lord/God is a day when something big/important happens. It is not only the second coming which comes like a thief in the night. The day of the GWTJ will also come as a thief in the night ie: unexpectedly to those who are blind and in darkness.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Here "the day of God" is used and it refers to the GWTJ which is long after the second coming is completed. The GWTJ does not happen at or during the second coming. It is a separate and different day altogether. Once the judging and punishing is finished, then will the NHNE arrive and the spiritual dissolving and melting of the former Earth and Heavens which is likely referring to the evil aspects of each rather than the literal Heaven and literal Earth burning literally.

We can be sure the burning and melting of the Earth and Heaven does not happen at the second coming because no second coming passage has any of that happening thus it is a misinterpretation to think the above verses about that fire are related to the second coming.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

What is your understanding of these verses? What do you think will happen to these scoffers? Please be specific.

Funny because in another gospel the story of Lot is also used and all unbelievers weren't killed that day so neither of these prove that.

All unbelievers in Sodom and Gomorroah were. The point is that the destruction that will come when Christ comes will be complete. No unbelievers will escape. Passages like 2 Peter 3:3-13 show that the destruction will be global just like the flood rather than regional as you believe.

Was everyone on the Ark a "believer"?

Yes, they were.

Even in Lot's family there was one who certainly wasn't.

Yeah, and what happened to her? She didn't survive.

 

[Timtofly]

If stars literally fell to earth they would annihilate the earth. Trust me on this. So, is that what you think will happen when it talks about stars falling to earth? And why are those stars literal while you recognize other references to stars in the book as being angels? Where is the consistency in that?

There are no literal gas balls. All those stars we see are angels. Your stars destroying the earth is science fiction. It is not literal, it is not even physical. An angel is literally not a ball of gas. An Angel is literally an angel. A star is literally an Angel. Your interpretation of a star is science fiction. Satan has deceived the world and convinced them his science is fact, when all it is, is a mathematical delusion. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

7 "and to give rest along with us to you who are being troubled, when the Lord Yeshua is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
8 in a fiery flame. Then he will punish those who don’t know God, that is, those who don’t listen to the Good News of our Lord Yeshua and obey it.
9 They will suffer the just penalty of eternal destruction, far away from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might.
10 On that Day, when he comes to be glorified by his holy people and admired by all who have trusted, you will be among them, because you trusted our witness to you."

This is fulfilled in Revelation 6:12-14

12 "Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red.
13 The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place."

John's stars are Paul's mighty angels.

 

[ewq1938]

What is the significance of 1 Cor 15:54 if people can still be saved and die after that?

It's great for those who resurrected saved and it's further good for those who are saved in the thousand years.

But the second death doesn't stop happening until death is cast into the lake of fire. Those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast in after death is. So, your hyper-literal way of looking at this just doesn't work.

Hyper literal is insulting and untrue. You have presented opinion that death ends at the second coming but the facts are it only ends for those who are saved. The unsaved still have to face death.

But, he was still speaking of there being no more death for anyone at that point because he quoted Isaiah 25:8 which is also quoted here:

Revelation 21:4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Revelation 21 is the age of eternity which is AFTER the GWTJ when death ceases to exist which is after the second death happens to the unsaved.

Death does not cease at the 7th trump as has been claimed.

 

[BABerean2]

And yet we have Matthew 26-28 showing us the death, burial, and resurrection. Harping on one detail and overlooking the Resurrection is not healthy.

The resurrection is found below at the time of the judgment of the dead.
You cannot have a judgment of the dead without a resurrection of the dead.
(See John 5:27-30.)


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


.

 

[Timtofly]

But the second death doesn't stop happening until death is cast into the lake of fire. Those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast in after death is. So, your hyper-literal way of looking at this just doesn't work.

Amil are the hyper literal interpreters. They do not allow for other interpretation besides their own. If all your interpretation is just figurative and not literal, what is the point? You want a hyper literal 24 hour day. You leave no room for 1000 years. 1000 years is not being hyper literal, it is being practical and following scripture, rightly dividing God's Word.

 

[Timtofly]

The resurrection is found below at the time of the judgment of the dead.
You cannot have a judgment of the dead without a resurrection of the dead.
(See John 5:27-30.)


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Actually those dead are not physically dead. Being hyper literal over this word "dead"?

Let us look at the source: Psalm 2

"Why are the nations in an uproar,
the peoples grumbling in vain?
2 The earth’s kings are taking positions,
leaders conspiring together,
against Adonai
and his anointed.
3 They cry, “Let’s break their fetters!
Let’s throw off their chains!”

4 He who sits in heaven laughs;
Adonai looks at them in derision.
5 Then in his anger he rebukes them,
terrifies them in his fury.
6 “I myself have installed my king
on Tziyon, my holy mountain.”

7 “I will proclaim the decree:
Adonai said to me,
‘You are my son;
today I became your father.
8 Ask of me, and I will make
the nations your inheritance;
the whole wide world
will be your possession.
9 You will break them with an iron rod,
shatter them like a clay pot.’”

10 Therefore, kings, be wise;
be warned, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve Adonai with fear;
rejoice, but with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry,
and you perish along the way,
when suddenly his anger blazes.
How blessed are all who take refuge in him."

The dead in this verse are all those alive who decide to oppose God at His Second Coming.

Would it be hyper literal to say God resurrects all the dead at this time so He can physically destroy them all over again?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I do not accept the modern translation of this verse.

What translation of Ephesians 6:11-12 do you accept?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Amil are the hyper literal interpreters. They do not allow for other interpretation besides their own.

Apparently, you don't know what hyperliteral means. It does not have anything to do with not allowing for other interpretations. It means that you assume everything is literal unless it's very clearly spelled out that it's not, so you are often not able to recognize symbolic or figurative language.

If all your interpretation is just figurative and not literal, what is the point?

It isn't just figurative. We have to discern when scripture is figurative and when it is literal. Some is figurative and some is literal. Premils and amils disagree on which is which sometimes and we agree at other times.

You want a hyper literal 24 hour day. You leave no room for 1000 years. 1000 years is not being hyper literal, it is being practical and following scripture, rightly dividing God's Word.

Where do you find 1000 years in a passage like 2 Peter 3:3-13 between Christ's second coming and the judgment?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There are no literal gas balls. All those stars we see are angels. Your stars destroying the earth is science fiction.

You said "The stars falling to earth like figs leaves, is literally stars coming to earth." So, I guess you either misspoke or did not make it clear as to what you meant. That's not my fault.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It's great for those who resurrected saved and it's further good for those who are saved in the thousand years.

But, in your view 1 Cor 15:54 doesn't even apply to those who are saved in the thousand years since it occurs at the last trumpet before they are saved.

Hyper literal is insulting and untrue. You have presented opinion that death ends at the second coming but the facts are it only ends for those who are saved. The unsaved still have to face death.

You keep saying that we have to assume that death being swallowed up in victory can't be referring to the end of death because death isn't cast into the LOF until the judgment. But, my point is that once the last person to die is dead (we both agree that occurs in Rev 20:9) then death will be swallowed up in victory and the last enemy, death, will be defeated then because it's a guarantee that no one will die after that. Death being cast into the LOF is just a formality at that point.

Revelation 21 is the age of eternity which is AFTER the GWTJ when death ceases to exist which is after the second death happens to the unsaved.

Death does not cease at the 7th trump as has been claimed.

It does because Jesus returns at the last trumpet at which time all believers are changed and then have immortal bodies while all unbelievers are killed at that time (2 Peter 3:3-13, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Matt 24:36-39, Rev 19:18).

 

[sovereigngrace]

It's great for those who resurrected saved and it's further good for those who are saved in the thousand years.




Hyper literal is insulting and untrue. You have presented opinion that death ends at the second coming but the facts are it only ends for those who are saved. The unsaved still have to face death.




Revelation 21 is the age of eternity which is AFTER the GWTJ when death ceases to exist which is after the second death happens to the unsaved.

Death does not cease at the 7th trump as has been claimed.

You are forcing your theology upon the text. A future millennium will never happen. You have to start with that misconception. From there you must then force salvation, death, sin and sinner, war and terror onto the earth to come and the age to come.

Salvation?

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13 & Matt 28:19-20).

Death?

In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer.

Those that are worthy to obtain the age to come are not mortals and not sinners; they are the glorified saints – who are said to never die. The Lord makes it clear “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels.”

It is “the children of God” alone that are glorified and therefore past from life unto death. It is “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age).” This privileged group no longer engage in temporal earthly relationships “Neither can they die any more.” First, we see it is only the elect that are worthy of inheriting the age to come, secondly, according to Jesus, death is not possible in the next age (i.e., “that age”). This favoured group cannot die because they possess eternal glorified bodies. This totally negates the Premil paradigm.

We cannot overlook the clear teaching that one must be “accounted worthy to obtain” the “world (or age)” to come. This is a very definite precondition for entering the new earth. That worthiness is obviously found in Christ. All that are saved when the Master returns will immediately be glorified, thus perfectly qualifying them to inhabit the newly regenerated earth. We see this mentioned in this reading. It is only those deemed fully justified that make it. There is only a certain type of person therefore that Christ counts worthy to “obtain” or tugchano meaning ‘to attain or secure an object or end’. It is a personal relation with Christ. There is no other ticket into the eternal state.

The children of the wicked one are not worthy to populate the new regenerated earth. As we have highlighted, the phrase “to obtain that world” is taken from the single Greek word kataxioo which means ‘to deem entirely deserving’. It plainly requires special merit to inherit the age to come.

Whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), Jesus presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone. This could never refer to the unsaved, mortals of any kind, or the nations that come against Jerusalem as some suggest. These would all obviously eventually die. Such people are expressly barred from the age to come. This is speaking about immortal glorified believers only.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage closely mirrors Romans 8, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.
Premil has countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. They have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age. They have all the sin and debauchery and rebellion of our day continuing in that day. Contrary to what Jesus says, Premil has millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” They render millions of unregenerate unsaved worthy to inherit the new earth. They are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of fiery regeneration.

This is talking about the first corrupt earth being removed and replaced with a new perfect earth. The former corruption has been removed. Perfection has finally arrived. The New Jerusalem envelops the perfected earth. The former things have passed away. You paint it as more of the same. This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay.

Revelation 22:3 tells us that when the new heavens and new earth arrive: “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 and Revelation 22:3 describe the perfect conditions that are introduced when Jesus Christ returns. No one with any sanity could say that such a state exists today. It doesn’t! This only accompanies the glorification of this sin-cursed world, because justice has finally been executed upon sin. It is then and only then that there will be:

· No more dying.
· No more crying.
· No more pain.
· No more sorrow.
· No more curse.

While the elect of God finally enters into eternal bless, the wicked correspondingly experience eternal torment. They are shown to be banished into everlasting punishment.

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying.

 

[DavidPT]

Do you believe that the locusts and Abaddon are the only ones in the abyss/pit when it's opened in Rev 9:1? Your answer to that question is how to determine whether or not the abyss/pit would need to be shut and locked again after they are let out.

When trying to answer that question, keep in mind that it talks about the beast being in the abyss/pit as well. Do you believe the beast will have ascended from the pit before Rev 9:1 or after?

Rev 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

If you think the beast comes out of the abyss/pit after Rev 9:1 occurs then that would mean the pit would have to be shut and locked after Rev 9:1-3 occurs in order to not let the beast out of the pit at that time. Or do you think the beast comes out of the pit at the same time the locusts and Abaddon do?

I grasp your points here, which then makes me wonder if it is you who is correct about this rather than me?

For example, in Revelation 11 and 17 it makes mention of the beast ascending out of the pit, yet it never shows the beast actually doing that in either of those chapters. There appears to be only two places that show someone coming out of the pit, and that is in ch 9 and ch 20.


As to ch 9 I see no indication that the beast rises out of the pit when it's opened in that chapter. In ch 20 I also see no indication of the beast coming out of the pit in that chapter either. This tends to present a problem, since it does seem unreasonable that we are told that the beast shall ascend out of the pit, and we even see two examples of someone ascending out of the pit, except neither of these examples are meaning when the beast ascends out of the pit. Unless there is another solution.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

It's possible that what is meant here by rising out of the sea could be meaning rising out of the pit. And if so, this would make 3 places, not just two, where we see something rise out of the pit, therefore Revelation 13:1 doesn't necessarily have to parallel Revelation 9:1 nor Revelation 20:7.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I grasp your points here, which then makes me wonder if it is you who is correct about this rather than me?

For example, in Revelation 11 and 17 it makes mention of the beast ascending out of the pit, yet it never shows the beast actually doing that in either of those chapters. There appears to be only two places that show someone coming out of the pit, and that is in ch 9 and ch 20.

Rev 11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

Even though with the way it's worded here, it doesn't specifically say that the beast comes up from the abyss/pit at this point, I do think it is implied. I think the reason the beast is able attack and overpower the two witnesses after they finish their testimony is because he is not allowed out of the pit until the two witnesses have finished their testimony first.

As to ch 9 I see no indication that the beast rises out of the pit when it's opened in that chapter. In ch 20 I also see no indication of the beast coming out of the pit in that chapter either. This tends to present a problem, since it does seem unreasonable that we are told that the beast shall ascend out of the pit, and we even see two examples of someone ascending out of the pit, except neither of these examples are meaning when the beast ascends out of the pit. Unless there is another solution.

I think that if something is not specifically said to happen it doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't. What I mean by that is that the beast gets its power from the dragon, Satan (Rev 13:4), so that makes it clear that the dragon and his beast are inseparable. They need each other.

The beast can't do anything without receiving power and authority from the dragon. So, if the dragon is bound in the pit then it only follows that the beast is bound in the pit as well. And if the beast ascends from the pit then it only follows that the dragon (Satan) has ascended from the pit as well. That's how I see it. I don't know if you've ever thought about all this from this angle before, so please try to be objective and give it some thought to see if what I'm saying makes sense.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

It's possible that what is meant here by rising out of the sea could be meaning rising out of the pit. And if so, this would make 3 places, not just two, where we see something rise out of the pit, therefore Revelation 13:1 doesn't necessarily have to parallel Revelation 9:1 nor Revelation 20:7.

I believe the book of Revelation is consistent with calling the abyss/bottomless pit just that, the abyss or bottomless pit (depending on which translation you're using), and I don't believe it's ever referred to as anything else. So, I believe "the sea" has to be something different than the pit and therefore the timing of the beast rising from the sea does not have to coincide with the beast rising from the pit.

 

[BABerean2]

Actually those dead are not physically dead. Being hyper literal over this word "dead"?

If these were really "dead" it would kill modern Dispensational Theology, so you have come up with Plan B.

You cannot have a judgment of the dead, without a bodily resurrection of the dead, as described by Christ in John 5:27-30.


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