Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

[DavidPT]

The only sense is that God has one angel tasked to be a gate keeper, and that is all they do for 8000 years. They show up twice:

Once to open the pit so all on earth can look into this pit.

Second to shut the pit and lock Satan inside before doing so.

Really simple, one angel, one job, only needed 2 times, but two very important times.

How do you figure satan gets out of the pit after the thousand years expire, if those 2 times this one angel is needed are already used up before then? Logic says, that if a key is needed to lock satan in the pit, this same key is also needed to unlock the pit in order to loose him.

 

[Timtofly]

How is it slander? What you're saying here proves my point. What you're saying here shows that you believe Christ's death had little, if any, impact on Satan just as I've seen other premils indicate before.

Satan having power, and the impact of the Cross are not the same thing. Slander is using a person's belief to make a point against them. The Cross was the fulfillment of this:

12 Here is how it works: it was through one individual that sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and in this way death passed through to the whole human race, inasmuch as everyone sinned.
13 Sin was indeed present in the world before Torah was given, but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah.
14 Nevertheless death ruled from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam’s violation of a direct command. In this, Adam prefigured the one who was to come. Romans 5:12-14

Satan is not mentioned at all. Was Paul claiming Satan had great power and lost it in these verses?

Satan does not keep the law. His power over us is to convince us the Torah is worthless. An example is evolution, which completely abolishes the Truth of Genesis. The power of Satan is that humans no longer see Genesis as the literal Word of God, but they claim it is just allegory. Satan is in total control with this deception today. Yes Satan was allowed power over science, and that power is clearly not bound, but has deceived, nations and individuals.

Paul said sin and death by sin entered because of Adam, not Satan.

What do you think it means in Hebrews 2:14-15 when it says that Jesus broke "the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil"?

Death has no more power over those in Christ. We do not have to wait in the grave. Satan still has all the same power of death over those who reject Christ. Thus power of Satan is there, but individual choice frees one from that power, not the binding of Satan. The Holy Spirit, even working in the lost, is greater than Satan, are you claiming it is not? People reject the Holy Spirit. They really do not choose death because Satan is bound or not bound.

How do you interpret the following verse:

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

7 Children, don’t let anyone deceive you — it is the person that keeps on doing what is right who is righteous, just as God is righteous.
8 The person who keeps on sinning is from the Adversary, because from the very beginning the Adversary has kept on sinning. It was for this very reason that the Son of God appeared, to destroy these doings of the Adversary.
9 No one who has God as his Father keeps on sinning, because the seed planted by God remains in him. That is, he cannot continue sinning, because he has God as his Father.
10 Here is how one can distinguish clearly between God’s children and those of the Adversary: everyone who does not continue doing what is right is not from God.

This does not say we sin because Satan has power over us. Does God want us to have power over Satan? Yes, only Christians can take down Satan's strongholds by obedience to God and in the power of God. We are the means of the Adversary loosing power. Personally though, historically, the church has failed, and not because of Satan. It is because the church played the harlot and gave power to Satan.

Doing what is right can still play into Satan's power grab. Human rights are considered right, even if they are in total opposition to God. These verses do not say, what we do, proves we are of Satan. It says we prove we are of God, by not following Satan, even if those around us think that it is good to follow Satan. Eve thought it best and good to listen to Satan, no?

One also has to distinguish what is right from God's view, not Satan's or those people we live with on earth. The Adversary opposes God, not our interpretation of God. Satan just uses our own beliefs against us. That is why theology and doctrine of man may not always have power over Satan. Some may be from Satan just to make us think we know something, yet do not. A belief is hard to get rid of. Ask Eve about how hard. It was not that Satan had any power over her. It was that Satan convinced her she had better ideas than God gave her.

 

[DavidPT]

Is it His brethren being judged by how they treated His brethren?

That's exactly what is happening in the sheep and goats judgment.

Let's start with Matthew 7, then.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Would or would it not be a ludicrous conclusion to conclude verse 21 is also meaning atheists, for example? As if atheists would be saying Lord, Lord, to begin with. Or how about unbelieving Jews that reject Christ? Can we fit them into this verse as well?

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Can we fit atheists and unbelieving Jews into this verse as well?


Next let's consider the following as well.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


All of the above, including what I submitted from Matthew 7, makes it crystal clear as to why the goats are cast into the LOF rather than inherit the kingdom instead. That's what that judgment is about, those in the body of Christ who are worthy to inherit the kingdom, and those in the body of Christ that are not. For Amils to then think the goats represent all of the lost in general, is to ignore context.

Why does verse 14 even ask the question it does---though a man say he hath faith, and have not works, can faith save him?

Why does verse 24 then say----Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

As to the sheep and goats judgment, didn't the works that the sheep did, justify them? As to verse 15 and 16 above in James 2, what does Matthew 25 indicate the sheep did or did not do in a case like that? What does Matthew 25 indicate the goats did or did not do in a case like that? In the sheep and goats judgment, both the sheep and goats address Jesus as Lord, yet Matthew 7:21 indicates---Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Which of these two groups did the will of the Father, assuming a scenario such as verse 15 and 16 in James 2?

But instead of interpreting these things in context, and how they relate to other Scriptures, a lot of Amils, so maybe not all Amils, would rather use the sheep and goats judgment to wrongly prove there are no mortal survivors remaining after this judgment, therefore Premil is debunked. Because, instead of seeing that the goats don't represent all of the lost in general, but only reprersent the lost in the church, they feel they have debunked Premil on this alone. So just forget about Zechariah 14:16-19, assuming Amils are correct that the goats represent all of the lost since the beginning of time, therefore Zechariah must have lied to us in those verses when he indicated there would be unsaved survivors from the nations which came against Jerusalem.

The following is an example of someone else on the same page with me about the sheep and goats judgment. This at least proves this is not a private interpretation on my part.
-----------------------------------

Who are the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25?




EZekiel 20:33 appears to be the parallel account in the Hebrew Bible to this passage in Matthew, when the Lord God will one day regather his people from the nations of the world in order to be their king. That is, this regathering will be a mix of the righteous (believers) and the apparent-righteous (unbelievers). Thus he will judge his people in the "wilderness of the peoples" (Ezek 20:35). The comparison here is to the wilderness of the land of Egypt (Ezek 20:36), where the Lord had "purged" his people in order to prevent "rebels and transgressors" from entering the Promised Land. Thus the scope of judgment is limited to the declared followers of the Lord. As the shepherd he will make his people "pass under the rod" (Ezek 20:37). In this context, the goats will undergo the following.

Matthew 7:21-23(NASB) 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”

At the end of Matthew 25:31-46 the announcement is made: “These (goats) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous (sheep) into eternal life.” That is, the sheep are the righteous (believers) and the goats are the unrighteous (unbelievers) notwithstanding that both groups were the ostensible and therefore self-declared followers of the Lord.

The idea here is that those "believers" who love other "believers" through both their words and deeds are indeed the sheep (cf. Ja 2:15-17 and 1 Jn 3:18), whereas the remainder (the goats) are those whose spiritual gifts (which were prophesying, healing, miracles) were of no use or benefit to the sheep (hunger, thirst, nakedness, sickness, and their loneliness in incarceration) and therefore the goats were never "known" by the Lord.

Who are the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25?
----------------------------


BTW, this post here should adequetly address my discussions with both you and SpiritualJew, in regards to this subject. I'm not saying either one of you might agree with anything I submitted, but I'm guessing SpiritualJew likely wont since Amils typically use the sheep and goats judgment to allegedly prove there are no unsaved mortals remaining after the 2nd coming, therefore Premil is debunked on this alone.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Satan having power, and the impact of the Cross are not the same thing. Slander is using a person's belief to make a point against them.

We all do that constantly on here. That is not slander unless what I said isn't true, but you'd have to prove that to be the case. You even say yourself that you don't think Christ's death had much, if any, impact on Satan. Doesn't that go along with what I said?

Death has no more power over those in Christ. We do not have to wait in the grave. Satan still has all the same power of death over those who reject Christ. Thus power of Satan is there, but individual choice frees one from that power, not the binding of Satan. The Holy Spirit, even working in the lost, is greater than Satan, are you claiming it is not? People reject the Holy Spirit. They really do not choose death because Satan is bound or not bound.

But, my point is that before Christ came, as passages like Eph 2:11-22 and Hebrews 2:14-15 indicate, Satan was able to keep a vast majority of the Gentiles in particular in spiritual darkness away from God and Christ as they were "without hope" and "without God in the world". But "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ" (Eph 2:13).

So, they all feared death and they had no hope of eternal life. Christ changed all of that by breaking the power of death that the devil had (Heb 2:14-15). It seems like you want to argue with what it plainly says in Hebrews 2:14-15 and I don't understand that.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

BTW, this post here should adequetly address my discussions with both you and SpiritualJew, in regards to this subject. I'm not saying either one of you might agree with anything I submitted, but I'm guessing SpiritualJew likely wont since Amils typically use the sheep and goats judgment to allegedly prove there are no unsaved mortals remaining after the 2nd coming, therefore Premil is debunked on this alone.

You are correct that I disagree with you on what you said in this post (I didn't quote it all just to save some space). I gave my understanding of this particular topic already in post #1188.

Our approaches are just different. To me, there are only 2 groups in view when it comes to the day of judgment. By that time everyone will be in one of those 2 groups. Saved and lost. Righteous and wicked. Good and bad. Those whose names are written in the book of life and those whose names are not written in the book of life. However you want to put it. Jesus said "He who is not with Me is against Me". That doesn't allow room for a 3rd (or 4th or 5th) group as premil believes.

 

[Oseas]

Satan's deception is both physical and spiritual. Only the second coming will change that. The church has always had more power than Satan. Even Cain had more power than Satan.

Cain was of the wicked one, or of the Devil, and slew his brother, as is written in 1John 3:v.12.

JESUS said to the Jews: Mat. 23:v.33-35: -
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

We can understand by the words of our Lord Jesus Christ that the blood of righteous Abel that was shed upon the earth will fall upon the Jews, it will be required of the Jews.

Who is Satan? Our Lord JESUS said to the Jews: John 8:v.42-46:
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but He sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

About Satan, remember that he was and is a former Cherub, he was the ruler of God's Garden, the Eden. He is the son of perdition. In the current time, time of Apocalypse, he is described by the Word of God as "the red Dragon -the great Dragon - that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world", include even countless apostate Christians because they have believed in the messengers or Ministers of the Devil: 2Corinhians 11:v.13-15: -
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the Ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Speaking of the times of the END, our Lord JESUS warned: Matt.24:v.11 - "And many false prophets shall rise (false preachers of Scriptures, even false Ministers), and shall deceive many".

Ephesians 6:v.11
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil.

 

[BABerean2]

Cain was of the wicked one, or of the Devil, and slew his brother, as is written in 1John 3:v.12.

JESUS said to the Jews: Mat. 23:v.33-35: -
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

We can understand by the words of our Lord Jesus Christ that the blood of righteous Abel that was shed upon the earth will fall upon the Jews, it will be required of the Jews.

Who is Satan? Our Lord JESUS said to the Jews: John 8:v.42-46:
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but He sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

About Satan, remember that he was and is a former Cherub, he was the ruler of God's Garden, the Eden. He is the son of perdition. In the current time, time of Apocalypse, he is described by the Word of God as "the red Dragon -the great Dragon - that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world", include even countless apostate Christians because they have believed in the messengers or Ministers of the Devil: 2Corinhians 11:v.13-15: -
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the Ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Speaking of the times of the END, our Lord JESUS warned: Matt.24:v.11 - "And many false prophets shall rise (false preachers of Scriptures, even false Ministers), and shall deceive many".

Ephesians 6:v.11
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil.

Gen 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, "I have acquired a man from the LORD."


.

 

[Timtofly]

That is, the sheep are the righteous (believers) and the goats are the unrighteous (unbelievers) notwithstanding that both groups were the ostensible and therefore self-declared followers of the Lord.

They are not self declared. These are not those who declared Lord, Lord. These sheep are chosen by God, just like Jesus chose many disciples at His first coming. Many at the first coming obeyed the calling and stuck with Jesus Christ even after death, burial, and resurrection. Others thought they would just follow to see what they would get out of it. Those in it for themselves are goats, not sheep.

But that is the past. Now we are faced with a second coming and a new set of sheep and goats.

 

[ewq1938]

But, what I can't see John 5:28-29 saying at all is that the one hour or time that is coming can be stretched out to 1000+ years. Also, passages like Matt 25:31-46 clearly show the saved and lost being judged at the same time and I see no basis for thinking that it doesn't include the dead who will be resurrected at Christ's second coming.

Matthew doesn't say they are judged the same day either. He doesn't say how long or short the time inbetween the two judgements will be but Revelation 20 does. Resurrection and judgment go hand in hand and the fact that "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" proves a long gap of time inbetween. There's simply no way to get around that.

Amils agree that there is a long time between the first resurrection and second resurrection, but we don't see it as being a literal thousand years and we don't see the first resurrection as occurring at Christ's second coming.

Amill doesn't understand what Revelation 20's first resurrection is so believing there is a long gap of time doesn't apply properly. In Revelation 20 there is a group of the dead that come back to life, and the rest of the dead do not come to life with them but have to wait a thousand years before they can "live again".

Paul said Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection, so the resurrection that occurs at His coming cannot be the first (1 Cor 15:22-23).

That's a different "first resurrection". Another first resurrection which is different from those other two would be the first human to ever be resurrected.

Three "first resurrections":

1. The first human being who died and was resurrected.
2. Jesus, the first to resurrect to immortality.
3. The first of two groups of the dead who resurrect from the dead in Revelation 20.

It is an error to confuse or conflate any of these 3 with any other of the 3.

If you think the thousand years has to be a literal thousand years and you think that the 42 months and 1260 days mentioned in Revelation are also literal then do you believe the following is describing a literal one hour (60 minutes) of time?

Rev 17:8 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

This is where understanding of the Greek language is needed.

G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.
Total KJV occurrences: 108

This word can mean any amount of time which is why it's translated as day, hour, instant, season etc.

Is this really saying that these ten kings will receive authority for only 60 minutes? That would be ridiculous, right? What could they even do in that amount of time? It's clearly being figurative. So, why can't the thousand years be figurative as well?

Again, that comes down to the Greek word used which has a specific meaning of a thousand of something, not 1001 and not 999 but exactly a thousand. See this thread:

Proving the thousand years of Revelation 20 is exactly 1000 years.

I disagree. You are turning one time into two times.

Yes, two times. The resurrection of the just is one time and the resurrection of the unjust is another time. That's why John described the two in Revelation 20 but with the added info about how long is inbetween.

 

[ewq1938]

But it does a vast majority of the time and every other time it's used in the book of Revelation (which is several times). Does that not mean anything to you? I believe that is strong evidence that it is used that way in Rev 11:18 as well. And it also mentions the destruction of those who destroy the earth, so unbelievers are clearly in view in that passage as well.

Again, you want the word to mean only one thing because of your theological view. The truth is as I showed, it can mean positive or negative so context is important. Since Christ does positively judge the living and the dead in Him, the verse can be properly understood as judgement of the righteous. The unrighteous are not judged at that time because their resurrection is after the thousand years and that's where we see the final judgment.

 

[ewq1938]

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


Within the same "hour", instead of 1,000 years apart...


.

No, the "hour" can be any amount of time according to the Greek definition. Revelation 20 shows some dead are resurrected and judged and the "rest of the dead" don't live again until after the thousand years years and that's when we see them judged.

 

[Timtofly]

We all do that constantly on here. That is not slander unless what I said isn't true, but you'd have to prove that to be the case. You even say yourself that you don't think Christ's death had much, if any, impact on Satan. Doesn't that go along with what I said?

Not the impact you claim. The act on the Cross did not bind Satan. To say there was no impact at all and that is what we believe is slander.

I did point out that the sting of death was taken away from Satan. That is a pretty big impact in my view. The resurrection itself gave all in Christ back their incorruptible bodies. Satan can no longer Lord that fact over us.

But, my point is that before Christ came, as passages like Eph 2:11-22 and Hebrews 2:14-15 indicate, Satan was able to keep a vast majority of the Gentiles in particular in spiritual darkness away from God and Christ as they were "without hope" and "without God in the world". But "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ" (Eph 2:13).

So, they all feared death and they had no hope of eternal life. Christ changed all of that by breaking the power of death that the devil had (Heb 2:14-15). It seems like you want to argue with what it plainly says in Hebrews 2:14-15 and I don't understand that.

Having the power of death is not the same as deceiving the nations as I pointed out. Humans have death because of Adam not Satan. Satan was not using death to deceive the nations. He just used that as leverage. It was the power of leverage, not the power of deception. Satan has still deceived the nations after loosing the power of death. Satan is not bound either, and there is no proof. Satan lost power over death, but we still die, so not part of whether Satan is bound or not. Death comes from Adam not Satan.

 

[ewq1938]

Not the impact you claim. The act on the Cross did not bind Satan. To say there was no impact at all and that is what we believe is slander.

I did point out that the sting of death was taken away from Satan. That is a pretty big impact in my view. The resurrection itself gave all in Christ back their incorruptible bodies. Satan can no longer Lord that fact over us.

Also the fact that satan was not bound by Christ but an angel and he was only bound in Revelation 20 but way back in the 5th trump that's same angel opened the pit and Satan wasn't locked inside of it so Satan was not bound at anytime before the cross or after the cross and unbound through all of church history (also seen in Revelation 12 where Satan is still not bound). It is not until Christ returns and destroys the two beasts and their armies that Satan is finally bound, put into the pit and the pit is locked and sealed. The two beasts haven't risen to power and forced the mark of the beasts on anyone's hands or foreheads not are the two witnesses preaching now or in the past...nor have those two prophets been killed and seen to resurrect.

The binding and imprisonment of Satan in Revelation 20 is clearly a future event thousands of years past the cross.

 

[BABerean2]

No, the "hour" can be any amount of time according to the Greek definition. Revelation 20 shows some dead are resurrected and judged and the "rest of the dead" don't live again until after the thousand years years and that's when we see them judged.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 the Apostle Paul reveals that Christ returns "in flaming fire", and the fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

In 2 Timothy 4:1, Paul reveals that Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing, and the judgment occurs at the end of Revelation 20.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Also the fact that satan was not bound by Christ but an angel and he was only bound in Revelation 20 but way back in the 5th trump that's same angel opened the pit and Satan wasn't locked inside of it so Satan was not bound at anytime before the cross or after the cross and unbound through all of church history (also seen in Revelation 12 where Satan is still not bound).

Can you explain why the beast "ascends" out of the bottomless pit in Revelation 11?


Rev 11:7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.



.

 

[ewq1938]

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 the Apostle Paul reveals that Christ returns "in flaming fire", and the fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

That's two different fires and times. Christ's coming IN flaming fire is how he arrives but is not how he kills people. He kills with a sword.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

G5395
f??´?
phlox
flox
From a primary f?e´?? phlego¯ (to “flash” or “flame”); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G4442
p???
pur
poor
A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.


In flaming fire is regarding Christ not the unsaved. Flaming means a flash and fire is specifically lightning according to the Strongs. So Christ comes In a flash of lightning to arrive and take vengeance (the sword of his mouth Rev 19) on the unsaved and that shouldn't be surprising because we were told that before:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



This denotes the speed of his return like a flash of lightning. It has nothing to do with using fire or lightning against the unsaved. To think that is to misread the verses.


Just read Rev 19 where the battle is described and you will see ZERO fire or lightning used to kill anyone.

2Th 1:7-8

And to you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels In A FLASH OF LIGHTNING
taking vengeance (with a sword according to Revelation 19) on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

In 2 Timothy 4:1, Paul reveals that Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing, and the judgment occurs at the end of Revelation 20.

The judging of the living and dead saints takes place at the second coming (before Satan is cast into the LOF) not at the GWTJ which is much later and is after Satan was cast into the LOF.



.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That's two different fires and times. Christ's coming IN flaming fire is how he arrives but is not how he kills people. He kills with a sword.

But 2 Peter 3:3-13 makes it clear that the physical destruction will be by fire and as an amil, I believe Rev 20:9 refers to the same event and it talks about fire coming down from heaven to destroy God's enemies.

To think that He will have a literal double-edged sword coming out of His mouth when He comes is just a case of a complete lack of discernment on your part because you are not able to recognize obvious symbolic language even within a highly symbolic book like Revelation. Do you think the sword of the Holy Spirit is a literal sword, also?

 

[ewq1938]

Can you explain why the beast "ascends" out of the bottomless pit in Revelation 11?


Rev 11:7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Let's identify which beast that is:

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


So the beast that ascends out of the pit is the first beast of Revelation 13.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


That beast is a kingdom/government composed of ten kingdoms spread through ten mountains.

I believe it is in the pit because it's spiritual leaders are demons and fallen angels etc and they ascend from the pit and form that kingdom/government at Satan's bidding and will be led by the antichrist.

 

[Oseas]

Gen 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, "I have acquired a man from the LORD."
.

You quoted Genesis 4:v.1, and I quoted 1 John 3:v.12 in my post 1247 above. You should tell to all of us, what you meant with the verse you quoted, whose verse is not unknown of us all. So I will do a comment, and asking you and all: Who lied? Eve or John the Apostle?

Gen 4:1 - Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, "I have acquired a man from the LORD.

John 3:v.12 - Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one (Cain was of the Devil because was born from the Devil, was born of the father of lie), and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Who lied? Eve or John the Apostle?

What did Eva say when was Abel born? She said nothing, was speechless. Why? Abel was of the Lord, really, but Eve stayed/remained in silent. If Eve had said that she acquired a man from the Lord when Abel was born, it would have been written just like in the case of Cain. See Genesis 4:v.25-26 to confirm.

Eva lied when she said she acquired Cain from the Lord, it was a lie, she acquired Cain from the Devil, Cain was born from the Devil, Cain was a seed of the Devil, not a seed of God.

Only for clarify, who really were born of God, or, in other words, who really were God's seed, they were Abel, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared , Enoch, and Enoch begat Methuselah, and walked with God: and he was not; for God took him, Methuselah begat Lamech, and Lamech begat Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.

It's it.

 

[ewq1938]

But 2 Peter 3:3-13 makes it clear that the physical destruction will be by fire and as an amil, I believe Rev 20:9 refers to the same event and it talks about fire coming down from heaven to destroy God's enemies.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

You are confusing the fire which burns the heavens and the Earth with the Revelation 20 fire that only burns up people. While the fire which can burn the heavens is NOT literal fire, the fire from God the Father in Revelation 20 is literal and kills literal people.

To think that He will have a literal double-edged sword coming out of His mouth when He comes is just a case of a complete lack of discernment on your part because you are not able to recognize obvious symbolic language even within a highly symbolic book like Revelation. Do you think the sword of the Holy Spirit is a literal sword, also?

Your error here is assuming I think the sword is literal and then accusing me of it. This is known as a strawman fallacy.

I only refer to the sword as a sword because the text does. The symbolism of a sword is vastly different than fire.

If you wanted to describe killing someone with fire, why use the imagery of a sword? Would you use the imagery of a sword to depict killing someone with water or ice? A sword in the mouth is symbolic of words. He likely shouts at the people and they die.