Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

[Spiritual Jew]

We both agree that there are two groups of people. Some are sent away to the everlasting fire which has been prepared for Satan and his angels, some are not - and there is only one criteria mentioned being used to assess their works - how they treated Christ, because, said He, how they treated the least of these His brethren is how they treated Him.

Who are his brethren? Is it His brethren being judged by how they treated His brethren?

Yes. Jesus said His brethren are the ones who do the will of His Father (Matthew 12:50). Some may not have been His brethren at the time they were helped and became Christians later because of experienced God's love through His people.

Let's look at something else:

In Revelation 15, in the introduction passage to the seven last plagues/bowls of wrath, we read that John saw "those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty, just and true are Your ways, O King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You only are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, for Your righteousnesses were made known.

(Those who had "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" are again mentioned in Revelation 20, where John sees them living and reigning with Christ a thousand years.)

The first plague is poured out on the earth, "And a bad and grievous sore fell on the men who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image." Rev 16:2

The second plague is poured out on the sea, and it became blood, and likewise the third on the rivers and fountains of waters, and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Righteous is the Lord, who is, and was, and who will be, because You have judged these things,
6 since they have poured out the blood of the saints and prophets; and You gave them blood to drink, for they were deserving.
7 And I heard another out of the altar saying, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.

Later on, in the midst of John talking about the events of the sixth plague/bowl of wrath, Jesus interjects:

Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.

And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

In Revelation 19:11-21, Christ is seen coming on a white horse to wage war with the beast, "And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

The saints have already been identified as "clothed in fine linen, white and clean: "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints." (Rev 19:8); and in Rev 17:14 we are told of the ten kings that "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones." (In Rev 19 He is called king of kings and Lord of Lords when He comes to wage war against the beast).

The above shows the saints who gained victory over the beast in heaven with harps singing the song of Moses by the time the plagues are poured out. Why then does Jesus interject in the midst of John talking about the sixth plague, warning: "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."?

Why?

It leaves open the possibility that when Christ is seen appearing in heaven and resurrecting/rapturing His saints, those who see it will all realize He is Lord, and will all begin calling Him Lord:

There is no reason to assume that the description of the ones in heaven being "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" implies that they have already been raptured and have been changed to have immortal bodies as 1 Cor 15:50-54 talks about. Look what it says. It says "the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints". So, the fine linen symbolically represents the righteousness of the saints. It's not a reference to them having their bodies changed yet because it doesn't portray Jesus descending from heaven until after that in Rev 19:11-21. John is seeing souls of dead saints there there just as he does in Rev 6 and Rev 20.

The ones symbolically clothed in fine linen in heaven that John saw in the first half of Rev 19 are the souls of the dead in Christ who are ready to come with Him and unite with their resurrected, changed, immortal bodies.

They are mentioned here:

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

"And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them." (Revelation 11:11).

Remember: Paul told us that those of the saints who are still alive when Christ appears to gather His elect will not precede those who had fallen asleep in Christ: The dead in Christ will be raised first, then those who are alive and remain will be changed and raptured.

So if the saints are already raptured, who are these who are being told to keep their garments in the midst of the sixth plague, where the Lord's words are followed by:

"And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." (Rev 11:16).

The saints will not have been raptured yet at that point. There is no basis for believing that. Jesus is not going to descend from heaven more than once. Scripture does not teach that.

And who are those who are being judged by how they treated the saints in Matthew 25:31-46, who are ALL calling Jesus "Lord"?

All people will know that He is Lord at that point. Look at this:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

This indicates that everyone will bow before Him on judgment day and confess that He is God. Paul was referring to this passage there:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that this includes every person because it includes "all that are incensed against him" being ashamed on that day. They will call Him Lord because there will be no denying it at that point when He is seen in all His glory.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No No No. It's the favorite kind of expression BaBerean2 uses when he levels the same sort of accusations against whoever he's debating with.

Put your guns back in your holster. I realize you can't wait to find a reason to pull me up the way I did with you when you needed it, but you're charging ahead and firing before the time.

Wait for the platoon sergeant to give you the order to charge.

What in the world are you talking about here? Are you saying you have no interest in civil discourse?

 

[Timtofly]

You cannot have a judgment of the dead without a resurrection of the dead, in the verse below.
It occurs shortly after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


.

Nothing in the verse even implies a resurrection of souls from sheol. The spiritually dead are being judged. The spiritually dead (you deny the church is already resurrected physically) are being rewarded, in Paradise. Are you saying the wicked are judged in Paradise and cast out after an unknown resurrection?

Spiritually dead people are the majority of humans alive today, no? How can people in sheol or Paradise be destroying earth at the time this verse mentions? They have to be on earth destroying earth, no? Can you destroy earth while in Paradise or sheol? I think not.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

To be fair then, context matters to everyone, yet IMO some are still trying to interpret the sheep and goats judgment apart from context, thus coming up with ludicrous conclusions such as the goats representing all of the lost that has ever lived.

Ludicrous conclusions? Based on what? I believe the following verses are clearly referring to the same event:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The similarities between these verses are obvious.

You seem to have an issue with seeing Matthew 25:41 as referring to all the lost who ever lived. Do you have the same problem with seeing that as being the case for Revelation 20:15 as well? It clearly is since it says all whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. All of the lost of all time will be those whose names are not written in the book of life at that point.

Do you think the "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" is something different than the lake of fire? Keep in mind that the devil will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:10). If you think it is the lake of fire, what basis is there for thinking Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:15 are speaking of different events? Why would there be 2 judgment days where people are cast into the lake of fire?

et's see if that might work with some of the text involved. Let's use unrepentant satanists, witches, and atheists, as some examples of the lost and see if they might fit the goats.

Since I am discussing this with you in particular, and the fact I have been knowing you for years, I had decided ages ago that you are a very reasonable person, period. Which to me means, reasonable ppl should recognize when something sounds reasonable or not. I'm going to present 2 scenarios, then you tell me which sounds more reasonable. A) or B) below.

A) Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they, the unrepentant satanists, witches, and atheists, also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.


B) Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they, the unprofitable servants of Christ, also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

I am reasonable, but I don't think your 2 hypothetical scenarios are reasonable because I don't believe either scenario is taught in scripture.

I believe that passage is the same event as Rev 20:11-15, so I believe both groups in your 2 scenarios will be among those who are cast into everlasting fire (the lake of fire) on judgment day. Both types of people in your 2 scenarios are among those whose names are not written in the book of life. So, my answer is neither one because I don't find either one to be reasonable.

 

[Timtofly]

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

This refutes your recap. In Revelation 20, Jesus Christ is in Jerusalem, and Satan is marching to Jerusalem. In Revelation 18, Satan is in Jerusalem, and Christ is marching to Jerusalem. This role reversal refutes the man made opinion of recap. The thousand years begins after Christ ousted the beast and FP into the lake of fire, puts Satan in chains, and controls Jerusalem. At the end, Satan marches towards Jerusalem and is burned up along the way, and then cast into the lake of fire.

Why do you not point out the direction Satan is going? Because it contradicts recap.

 

[Timtofly]

Apparently the one giving the key to the star fallen from heaven has to unlock the locked abyss, drop the key into it, and close it very quickly again so that the star fallen from heaven, who is already in the abyss, doesn't cease the opportunity to come out when it's unlocked in order to hand the key to him.

I mean, the star fallen from heaven couldn't possibly be opening the pit from the outside unless he's still outside and has never been in the abyss?

So the locked abyss has to be unlocked to drop the key into it, and locked again quickly enough not to let anything out, only so that the star fallen from heaven can use the same key to unlock it again from the inside.

Makes a lot of sense.

The only sense is that God has one angel tasked to be a gate keeper, and that is all they do for 8000 years. They show up twice:

Once to open the pit so all on earth can look into this pit.

Second to shut the pit and lock Satan inside before doing so.

Really simple, one angel, one job, only needed 2 times, but two very important times.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation chapters 6-19 ​

What Revelation 11:15-19 is talking about parallels the events described in the 7th bowl of wrath, as well as what Revelation 19:11-21 is talking about, and what Revelation 17:14 is talking about, and what Revelation 13:11-18 is talking about, and Revelation 14:18-20 & Revelation 18 fills in more detail regarding the same things.

So, you can see all those parallels, yet can't see the parallel between those and Rev 20:7-15. Huh. Okay. At least you're not like most premils who scoff at the idea of there being parallel passages within the book. I'll give you credit for that.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Of course not, but that is beside the point. I don't see it being logical that saints would be being martyred while satan is locked up in the pit at the time. It seems to me that when satan is locked up in the pit his angels would be locked up in it with him at the time.

I agree that it makes sense that when Satan is chained up and locked in the abyss/pit then his angels would be in it with Him. That is sound reasoning. Are you aware that the fallen angels have been "bound with everlasting chains" for a long time already?

Jude 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

These verses are saying that all of the fallen angels, which would include Satan, were "bound with everlasting chains" long ago. Do you believe these verses are saying that the fallen angels were literally bound in chains that made them immobile and unable to do anything or go anywhere? That can't be since we know there has been demonic activity for a long time up until today as the following passage shows:

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

So, despite the fallen angels being bound with everlasting chains, they are not immobile and are still active and we have to contend with them. But, they cannot harm us spiritually when we "put on the whole armor of God". This proves that the premil understanding of Satan's binding having something to do with him being bound no differently than a physical being would be bound is off base and should not be interpreted that way. And it proves that the binding of Satan and his angels in "everlasting chains" has already occurred long ago just as amil believes.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus repeatedly placed all people into two groups in terms of their eternal destinies which is the context of Matt 25:31-46 since everyone there either inherits "eternal life" (Matt 25:46) or is sent to "everlasting fire" for "eternal punishment" (Matt 25:41,46).

Are you sure it is all people of all time, or just the living at the time Jesus Christ is actually walking around on earth? Jesus states that there is a time those living hear His voice, and a separate time when those dead hear His voice. You are technically saying all in sheol may end up in two different places, as they are not in sheol for anything they have done yet.

So sheep and goats cannot cover any dead people before the first coming. Sheep and goats can not cover any dead in sheol from the first coming to the second coming. Sheep and goats can not cover any dead people period. They can only cover people alive on earth the same time Jesus Christ is physically walking around on earth.

Yes the sheep and goats are chosen to be killed and physically resurrected. They are killed by the angels during the trumpets and resurrected in Revelation 20:4. The sheep are not judged before death, they are just chosen. Obviously those on the thrones in Revelation 20, are unanimous in granting incorruptible bodies and a 1000 year reign with Christ on earth. Not because they had done anything to deserve being chosen. Unless you take the fact whatsoever they did to the church while both were alive on earth during coved19, they did it to Christ even though they were not part of the church or the body of Christ. It would be foolish to preach both gospels at the same time. One based on the Cross and the other based on being a first responder. Rejecting one and choosing the other to predict an outcome would be a foolish gamble. It is a known only after the fact. But the sheep and goats can only be a definition of those living, not those already at their eternal destination. And the sheep are chosen by God. They have no knowledge to choose God on their own. The goats and tares are sent out by Satan himself to influence humanity towards Satan.

Goats did not choose their lot in life any more than the sheep did. Because the only choice they had in life was still the Holy Spirit softly attempting to get them to accept the Atonement of Christ on the Cross. The only Gospel of eternal salvation. Goats passed on the chance to accept Christ, some willingly doing so. However when the church and Holy Spirit leaves at the 6th seal, the Lamb will be back on earth to carry out the final harvest with His angels, and the 144k disciples also sealed by God for that exact purpose. This ministry covers the Trumpets and Thunders. Then the 7th Trumpet brings the ministry/harvest to a celebration closure. The 7th Trumpet is the completion, not the beginning in a single blast. Most want to say it starts at the 7th trumpet, no, that is the end.

Satan gets 42 months while the 7th Trumpet is still sounding. The 7 vials are when the 7th Trumpet is still sounding. So yeah, many things happen during the 7th Trumpet and most of them bad. When the one hour battle of Armageddon is over, the 7th trumpet will be over. Adam's descendants all dead. Adam's 6000 years of sinful nature and corruptible body finished. No more of Adam period. All resurrected living in the Lord's Day, the millennium, will be a different humanity, than before the battle of Armageddon.

That is the context of those verses in Matthew 25.

 

[ewq1938]

Jude 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

These verses are saying that all of the fallen angels, which would include Satan, were "bound with everlasting chains" long ago.

Those angels are the Gen 6 angels. It doesn't include Satan as he was roaming around freely in Job, to tempt Christ and possess Judas, roaming around as a lion as one writer described. Satan is not confined to the pit until the conclusion of the second coming. His fallen angels aren't mentioned by name in Revelation but they would be imprisoned when he was. I am not sure if they are allowed to be released when Satan is. I suspect Satan is released alone after the conclusion of the thousand years but doesn't matter much if angels are released with him or not.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The issues here for Amil:

1. It shows the righteous are resurrected first before the unrighteous are resurrected. That disproves what Amil claims regarding all being resurrected at the same time.

We don't mean that they are resurrected at the same exact moment. We believe it's during the same one event, which is the second coming of Christ. Of course things happen in order on that day, but we believe it all happens quickly.

The righteous dead in Christ are raised first and their bodies, along with Christians who are alive and remain, are changed in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor 15:51-52) to be immortal and we're all caught up to Christ "in the air" (1 Thess 4:13-17). Then all of the wicked on the earth are destroyed (Matt 24:36-39, 1 Thess 5:1-6, 2 Peter 3:3-13, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Rev 19:18, Rev 20:9). The judgment immediately follows that (Matt 25:31-46, Rev 20:11-15). All of these things are said to happen at the second coming of Christ, so there's no basis for inserting a thousand years between these things that will happen on the day He returns.

2. It also does not state how much time passes between the first resurrection and the second resurrection. Rev 20 provides that info as being a thousand years since "the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years are finished" which is the second resurrection of a group of the dead found in Rev 20. The first group is the first resurrection, the second group a thousand years later is the second resurrection.

Jesus did say that a singular hour or time was coming when all of the dead would be raised. How can a single hour or time equate to one resurrection happening followed by another one 1000+ years later? I don't believe that makes any sense at all.

3. Amil denies there is a first and second resurrection yet this verse and Rev 20 does prove it.

That is false. Amil does not deny the obvious fact that a first resurrection implies a second resurrection. Amil believes that the first resurrection is Christ's resurrection specifically (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Rev 1:5, etc.) and we all have part in His resurrection spiritually.

Paul taught in 1 Cor 15:22-23 what the order of resurrections are.

1 Cor 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This passage clearly says that the first resurrection was Christ's resurrection (Christ, the firstfruits). The context can be seen later on in the chapter (1 Cor 15:50-54) that Paul was talking specifically about being resurrected unto bodily immortality. Christ was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality and no one has been since then. Next in turn to be resurrected unto bodily immortality are "those who belong to Him" at His second coming. So, the resurrection at His second coming is the second resurrection unto bodily immortality, not the first.

4. "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice" . Hour here is not 60 minutes showing all the saved and unsaved resurrect in the same literal hour. The archaic English in the KJV makes it harder to understand but it should be understood like this: "the TIME is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice". This is similar to someone saying, "there is a time when all will die." which is not expressing that all people die at the same time but that all have a time that they will experience death.

I don't buy this explanation whatsoever. He said there is a single time (one time) or hour coming in history when all of the dead will be raised. Your explanation suggests that He said something to the effect that there are billions of times coming when all of the dead are raised with each individual person being resurrected at their own time. That is clearly not what Jesus was saying.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Are you sure it is all people of all time, or just the living at the time Jesus Christ is actually walking around on earth?

Maybe you missed where I said I believe Matthew 25:41 is the same event as Rev 20:15. If that is the case then it has to be all unbelievers of all time who are cast into the fire because Rev 20:15 says all whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire on judgment day.

How could all whose names are not written in the book of life be cast into the lake of fire at the judgment described in Rev 20:11-15 if some whose names are not written in the book of life had already been cast there 1000+ years before that?

In case you think the place where the goats (unsaved) are cast into is something besides the lake of fire, keep in mind that it says it's the place prepared for the devil and his angels. Where will the devil, Satan be cast? Into the lake of fire (Rev 20:10). So, Matthew 25:41 and Rev 20:15 have to be both speaking of the same eternal destiny of unsaved people.

 

[Timtofly]

I agree that it makes sense that when Satan is chained up and locked in the abyss/pit then his angels would be in it with Him. That is sound reasoning. Are you aware that the fallen angels have been "bound with everlasting chains" for a long time already?

Jude 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

These verses are saying that all of the fallen angels, which would include Satan, were "bound with everlasting chains" long ago. Do you believe these verses are saying that the fallen angels were literally bound in chains that made them immobile and unable to do anything or go anywhere? That can't be since we know there has been demonic activity for a long time up until today as the following passage shows:

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

So, despite the fallen angels being bound with everlasting chains, they are not immobile and are still active and we have to contend with them. But, they cannot harm us spiritually when we "put on the whole armor of God". This proves that the premil understanding of Satan's binding having something to do with him being bound no differently than a physical being would be bound is off base and should not be interpreted that way. And it proves that the binding of Satan and his angels in "everlasting chains" has already occurred long ago just as amil believes.

Satan was cast out and bound prior to Job? Putting Satan into chains with the other fallen angels at the same time causes many Scriptural contradictions. Jude indicates prior to the Flood. Satan was not bound in Job. Did Job live before the Flood? Satan was not bound when he tempted Christ. No verses claim he was bound at the Cross, because he was still working on Peter and Judas.

Satan would have had to have been bound at the baptism of Jesus to make any sense of having a lack of authority during Jesus' earthly ministry. Satan was shot down a lot during Paul's missionary outreach and letters. Never bound for 1000 years.

Even Amil only have Revelation 20 to claim a literal or symbolic reference to Satan being bound. A loose chain? We are not talking about dogs. Those angels that have been bound since before the Flood are probably just those critters that come out of the pit. They are not demons or loosely chained demons. Paul is talking about humans who are being used by Satan, not demons calling the shots. As for the symbolism of the strong man bound in his own house, just symbolism, nothing literal. Why are you taking Jesus' symbolism and calling it literal, yet in Revelation 20 you are taking literal words and turning them into symbols. Which is it, cause it cannot be both.

If Revelation 20 is symbolic then the binding of the strong man cannot be literal either. If the binding of the strong man remains symbolic as it should, then only Revelation 20 remains a future literal 1000 years and a literal binding. The text remains uninterpreted, as is. One is symbolic, the other literal. They both cannot change to make a point out of context. One being the first coming. The second being the second coming. If you try to apply the point to the wrong context, that is private interpretation even if one person believed it, or 6 billion people believed it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

At the 7th trump the dead in Christ and the living in Christ are judged and rewarded which is the time of the resurrection and rapture.

I'm not sure if you read my response to DavidPT about this same topic, but I'll just repeat here what I said to him about this. The following occurs after the seventh trumpet sounds:

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Notice that John differentiated here between "judging the dead" and rewarding believers. Who are "the dead" in Rev 20:11-15? Unbelievers, right? It says they are the ones whose names are not written in the book of life (Rev 20:15). Despite being resurrected they are still referred to as "the dead" because they are still dead in their sins and were not saved.

The Greek word translated as "judging" in Rev 11:18 where it talks about it being the time for judging the dead is krinō (Strong's G2919). That word is also used in these passages:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn (Greek: krinō) the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned (krinō), but whoever does not believe stands condemned (krinō) already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Here, it is used in the sense of condemning unbelievers.

How is it used elsewhere in Revelation? That should give us a good idea of how to understand it in Rev 11:18, wouldn't you agree? Let's see.

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge (krinō) the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?

It's clearly referred to here in relation to unbelievers because it's used in relation to God avenging the blood of slain believers.

How about this one:

Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged (krinō) thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Again, it's used in relation to judging unbelievers.

How about here:

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged (krinō) the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Once again, it's used in relation to judging a wicked entity, in this case "the great harlot" of Babylon.

How about in the passage that you claim cannot be the same event that Rev 11:15-19 is referring to?

Rev 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged (krinō) out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged (krinō) every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And yet again, we see the word used in relation to judging and condemning unbelievers.

With all of this in mind, what basis is there for concluding that the mention of it being the time of the dead being judged in Rev 11:18 is only referring to believers? None. It's talking about the time when believers are rewarded and unbelievers are condemned. When will that be? According to Matthew 25:31-46 it will be when Christ comes with His angels and according to Rev 20:11-15 it will be after the thousand years. That logically supports amil.

 

[ewq1938]

We don't mean that they are resurrected at the same exact moment. We believe it's during the same one event, which is the second coming of Christ. Of course things happen in order on that day, but we believe it all happens quickly.

Many Amill's I have spoken to do in fact claim all the dead rise at the same time. Glad that you don't subscribe to that.

All of these things are said to happen at the second coming of Christ, so there's no basis for inserting a thousand years between these things that will happen on the day He returns.

Except Christ inserted a thousand years inbetween. The whole "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" proves there is a thousand years inbetween.

Jesus did say that a singular hour or time was coming when all of the dead would be raised.

Not a "single" time but just a time when the dead would rise. Two separate resurrections with a thousand years inbetween satisfies this.

That is false. Amil does not deny the obvious fact that a first resurrection implies a second resurrection.

Again, most Amill's I have spoken to during the last couple decades did not admit to a second resurrection.

Amil believes that the first resurrection is Christ's resurrection specifically (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Rev 1:5, etc.) and we all have part in His resurrection spiritually.

That isn't what is found in the context of Revelation 20 where the first resurrection is the first of two mass bodily resurrections.

So, the resurrection at His second coming is the second resurrection unto bodily immortality, not the first.

The resurrection at the second coming is the first of two that will happen. One at his coming and one more after the thousand years is over. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" proves this.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Satan was cast out and bound prior to Job? Putting Satan into chains with the other fallen angels at the same time causes many Scriptural contradictions.

I'm not going to argue with you over the timing of them initially being bound since that wasn't my main point. I'll just say that I believe it's talking about when they were cast out of heaven after Christ's ascension to heaven (Rev 12:5-9), but, again, I'm not going to argue about the timing right now since that is besides the point I'm currently making.

Notice that it says they were bound with everlasting chains while being reserved for judgment. That means, regardless of when they were first bound, they would be bound until judgment day. And, yet, they still were able to be active after that. This shows that fallen angels being bound has nothing to do with them not being able to do anything at all.

Amil believes that Satan's binding has to do with him being unable to stop the spread of the truth of God's word and the gospel throughout the world as he was able to do in OT times when mostly only Israel knew of God and the truth in His Word.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Because of Christ's sacrifice by dying on the cross, the Gentiles of the world, who were "without hope and without God in the world" before that were "brought near by the blood of Christ". This had a major impact on Satan's ability to keep people in spiritual darkness.

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

Notice here how it says Christ's death broke "the power of him who holds the power of death, which is the devil (Satan). I believe premil underestimates the impact Christ's death, resurrection and ascension to heaven had on Satan. It bound him from keeping people from knowing God and making people to be "without hope and without God in the world" and it bound him from making people slaves to their fear of death like he was able to do before Christ came.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't buy this explanation whatsoever. He said there is a single time (one time) or hour coming in history when all of the dead will be raised. Your explanation suggests that He said something to the effect that there are billions of times coming when all of the dead are raised with each individual person being resurrected at their own time. That is clearly not what Jesus was saying.

You are missing the point. If all the dead are raised at one time, there is no rapture of the living. All dead means all dead if you all, both amil and what not claim it all happens at one time. All cannot be dead. Those in Christ are not dead, no matter how hard that fact is beaten with a dead horse. Those in Christ are raised at a different time. In fact some at the Cross, because Christ brings with him prior to this mythological "all the dead at one time mantra".

This "all the dead" are only those in sheol or Death. All others have been made alive prior to this time. In fact Revelation 20 says 1000 years prior. The OT will have been about 3000 years prior to this "all the dead at this one time" event.

Yes, billions of the church have been raised and given new life prior to the second coming and definitely prior to this one time event. The GWT is the one final time when all the dead, who are dead, will stand and be judged.

How can any one call those in Christ dead people? That is like the Thessalonians claiming the resurrection already happened and no one showed up, cause the memo says all have to wait till the GWT. Why are so many today believing in the memo that says all humanity saved and unsaved have to wait for the GWT so they all can show up at the dead role call? Paul says if there is no resurrection we have no hope, but hay we have a lot of private interpretation and belief and doctrine, and theology. In think not, we only have Christ and Him crucified, and thank God physically resurrected and Atonement was provided by God Himself.

 

[Timtofly]

Maybe you missed where I said I believe Matthew 25:41 is the same event as Rev 20:15. If that is the case then it has to be all unbelievers of all time who are cast into the fire because Rev 20:15 says all whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire on judgment day.

How could all whose names are not written in the book of life be cast into the lake of fire at the judgment described in Rev 20:11-15 if some whose names are not written in the book of life had already been cast there 1000+ years before that?

In case you think the place where the goats (unsaved) are cast into is something besides the lake of fire, keep in mind that it says it's the place prepared for the devil and his angels. Where will the devil, Satan be cast? Into the lake of fire (Rev 20:10). So, Matthew 25:41 and Rev 20:15 have to be both speaking of the same eternal destiny of unsaved people.

Because sheol was the place prepared. They are still there minus their leader. Death only starts at the 4th seal. Death has not been created yet. The lake of fire starts at the battle of Armageddon. The lake of fire has not been created yet.

 

[ewq1938]

With all of this in mind, what basis is there for concluding that the mention of it being the time of the dead being judged in Rev 11:18 is only referring to believers? None. It's talking about the time when believers are rewarded and unbelievers are condemned.

The word does not only mean negative judgment.

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Here the same word is used and Pilates original judgment/decision was to let Christ go which shows the word can be used in a positive/non-punishment sense. Similar usage in Act_7:7, Act_15:19

Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Here too is a positive use of the term.

We know Christ will judge the living and dead saints so I think that context is judging in the positive sense.


I don't have time to go through every example of the word where it's positive but I think I made my point here.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not sure if you read my response to DavidPT about this same topic, but I'll just repeat here what I said to him about this. The following occurs after the seventh trumpet sounds:

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Notice that John differentiated here between "judging the dead" and rewarding believers. Who are "the dead" in Rev 20:11-15? Unbelievers, right? It says they are the ones whose names are not written in the book of life (Rev 20:15). Despite being resurrected they are still referred to as "the dead" because they are still dead in their sins and were not saved.

The Greek word translated as "judging" in Rev 11:18 where it talks about it being the time for judging the dead is krinō (Strong's G2919). That word is also used in these passages:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn (Greek: krinō) the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned (krinō), but whoever does not believe stands condemned (krinō) already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Here, it is used in the sense of condemning unbelievers.

How is it used elsewhere in Revelation? That should give us a good idea of how to understand it in Rev 11:18, wouldn't you agree? Let's see.

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge (krinō) the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?

It's clearly referred to here in relation to unbelievers because it's used in relation to God avenging the blood of slain believers.

How about this one:

Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged (krinō) thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Again, it's used in relation to judging unbelievers.

How about here:

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged (krinō) the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Once again, it's used in relation to judging a wicked entity, in this case "the great harlot" of Babylon.

How about in the passage that you claim cannot be the same event that Rev 11:15-19 is referring to?

Rev 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged (krinō) out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged (krinō) every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And yet again, we see the word used in relation to judging and condemning unbelievers.

With all of this in mind, what basis is there for concluding that the mention of it being the time of the dead being judged in Rev 11:18 is only referring to believers? None. It's talking about the time when believers are rewarded and unbelievers are condemned. When will that be? According to Matthew 25:31-46 it will be when Christ comes with His angels and according to Rev 20:11-15 it will be after the thousand years. That logically supports amil.

Context is the difference. One set of people are judged before death. Some after death. Remember Death is created in the 4th seal. It is gathering people separate from sheol. Because both are emptied out at the GWT. My opinion: Death is final. If you are in it, your name has been removed from the Lamb's book of life. Those in sheol, who knows?