-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
want to talk about OSAS?
- Thread starter returntosender
- Start date
- Jul 22, 2014
- 41,685
- 7,908
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
Calvinism and OSAS go hand in hand. Perseverance of the Saints (OSAS) is one of the big points of Calvinism. It is one of Wesley’s major points in mocking the Calvinist’s view on reinterpreting those verses on falling away in Scripture. He does this in a way that is sort of funny and yet, it is not funny.
Upvote
0
And I can just as easily say those who claim Eternal Life is temporal or conditional rather than everlasting and never ending are mocking Gods promises which say they are no condemned and have passed from death to life and no condemnation.
I like to say its a matter of perspective, From Gods view its eternal and they will never perish. And from mans human POV it can be lost with those so-called passages in question.
hope this helps !!!
Upvote
0
Salvation is of, by and through the Lord. He is the Savior, Redeemer, Advocate, Mediator on our behalf. Its His Eternal Sacrifice for our sins that saves us. Its His Indwelling Spirit(Christ in you) given to us that is our Hope of Glory, our deposit/ down payment, guarantee of our inheritance. One who is Born Again never becomes unborn and Eternal Life never ends as some falsely teach. Scripture says we can KNOW we have Eternal Life and those who have that life are never condemned according to Jesus in John 3. They have passed our of death into life. We are His sheep whom He gives Eternal Life and no one can snatch one of them out from His hands. Paul says in Romans 8 that NOTHING can separate us from the love of Christ.
We are Eternally secure in Christ. His promises are everlasting. Forever oh Lord your word is settled in heaven. Gods promises are true and we can bank on His word.
hope this helps !!!
We are Eternally secure in Christ. His promises are everlasting. Forever oh Lord your word is settled in heaven. Gods promises are true and we can bank on His word.
hope this helps !!!
Upvote
0
Yes there are non calvinists who are OSAS, its just an attack on Calvinism and throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Its the same with total depravity its an attack on Calvinism while Arminius taught it as well and that free will of man is enslaved without the grace of God first through regeneration.
Here is Arminius :
“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” 7
Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
People repeat what they have been taught without searching it out for themselves.
I correct Calvinists all the time who attack Arminians about this when I bring up Arminius and what he actually believed.
hope this helps !!!
Upvote
0
- Dec 28, 2016
- 5,908
- 4,203
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
I remember that when I was a very young child I believed and loved God. So I'm not sure how the Calvinists would explain that when they bring up Romans 3:11
Upvote
0
We love because He first loved us. 1 John 4:19
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6
He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:8
Upvote
0
The prominent issue herein is those who believe in only an intellectual approach to God alone, and those who believe it is a commitment and real relationship. The very good picture as stated already herein about Luke 8 illustrates the difference. A TRUE believer in Christ will "have" ---POSSESS the Holy Spirit by God's "seal"; which seal takes ownership of one forever by the "everlasting life" God gives. Pretenders of Christianity will fall away often until they actually become a "child of God" by the essential NEW BIRTH ---RECEIVING THE LORD JESUS INTO OUR HEART. One should meditate and pray over John 3; John 14; Romans 8; Galatians 2:20; and note 1 Jn. 5:10-12; etc.
God says: "he that has the Son has life (eternal), an he that has not the Son has not that life" (see again 1 John 5:10-12), and know what God is saying still to us today. A true "born again" believer (John 3) is spiritually born and "sealed" as a "child of God" by the indwelling Holy Spirit. That seal cannot be broken by failures in the flesh, and forgetting and letting flesh come in. Failures, as we all have in allowing flesh, does NOT break the seal, for God allows we can be "carnal" (fleshly) by indulging flesh at times, as our own children do. They don't quit being our children due to some failure. Let us not quarrel with our God, but be faithful and praise Him always!
God says: "he that has the Son has life (eternal), an he that has not the Son has not that life" (see again 1 John 5:10-12), and know what God is saying still to us today. A true "born again" believer (John 3) is spiritually born and "sealed" as a "child of God" by the indwelling Holy Spirit. That seal cannot be broken by failures in the flesh, and forgetting and letting flesh come in. Failures, as we all have in allowing flesh, does NOT break the seal, for God allows we can be "carnal" (fleshly) by indulging flesh at times, as our own children do. They don't quit being our children due to some failure. Let us not quarrel with our God, but be faithful and praise Him always!
Last edited:
Upvote
0
If you will look closely at some of the posts, you will see the prominent issue is about real Christians leaving the faith, or leaving/losing salvation.
It is true however, some are taking the man from the sower parable who believed for awhile, and are trying to make him out to be someone who never really believed, in their attempt to defend their precept that we cannot fall away from salvation.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Jul 22, 2014
- 41,685
- 7,908
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
I am acutely aware there are many Non-Calvinists who are for OSAS. The point here is that OSAS originates from Calvinism (which John Calvin borrowed a little from St. Augustine). Your average Non Calvinist OSAS Proponent either is unaware of this fact or they reject such a historical claim.
Upvote
0
chad kincham
Well-Known Member
Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:
Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.
Will God let His enemies into heaven?
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.
The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.
Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?
We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.
Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.
In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.
1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.
Next:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).
Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.
And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:
Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting
You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.
When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.
The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.
This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.
Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.
I personally know people that are living in sin, and use OSAS as their sinning license, and they get angry if you tell them that Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living in the sin of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.
In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:
1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that yourbrethren.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.
The prodigal son.
In the prodigal son story, the father represents God, thus the son represents believers who are Gods adopted sons.
He’s already a son when the story starts.
He leaves the father to live in sin
When he returns to the father in repentance, the father says: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD, but is now alive AGAIN.
He obviously wasn’t dead physically and resurrected.
How then was he dead?
He was dead in his sins.
Thus the son was alive, left his Father to live a sinful life, became DEAD in his sins, then returned in repentance, and became alive AGAIN.
Upvote
0
chad kincham
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
OSAS originated with the five point TULIP doctrine - since grace/salvation is irresistible and Gods will for them, then one can’t be lost.
Anyone who believes in free will should realize if there is freewill, then there’s no OSAS.
Upvote
0
- Jul 22, 2014
- 41,685
- 7,908
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
But such a claim is simply not true because the Calvinistic view is taking verses out of context.
You said:
There are three verses that teach that we are saved by both Justification and Sanctification (Note: The red letters are in reference to Sanctification, and the letters in blue, are in reference to Justification). You quoted one of them ironically (i.e. John 5:24).
Verse #1.
"...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
(Note: Verse 12, says that there are those who are damned who believed not the truth and had pleasure in unrighteousness. Verses 16-17 in 2 Thessalonians 2 mentions faith and works in context, as well).
Verse #2.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24).
(Note on John 5:24: The EXB Translation explains that the word "hear" is to: "obey."; Meaning, we have to believe in Jesus and obey Him to not perish. Acts of the Apostles 3:23 confirms this. It says that if anyone does not hear that prophet (JESUS), they shall be destroyed).
Verse #3.
"You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
(James 2:24).
(James 2:24).
(Note: Most Christians believe that the phrase "justified by faith” is dealing with salvation; If this is what you believe, you must then also be consistent with the use of this word "justified," and we should use this one word in the same way in relation to works.).
Upvote
0
There is no "free will" man is a slave to sin, in bondage si sin, the will is a slave to sin period. 15 reason below why man has no free will.
1)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is a sinner (Rom 5:12)
7)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
8)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
9)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
10)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
11)man is sinful in the womb (Psalm 51:5)
12)man is conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)
13)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
14) man hates God (Rom 8:7)
15)man loves sin (1 John 3:19)
And quit blaming Calvin when Arminus is in agreement. Learn your history.
“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.
” 7Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
hope this helps !!!
Upvote
0
chad kincham
Well-Known Member
Except that in the parable of the sower in Luke 8, where seed is planted, and new life begins, but it’s not sustained and dies.
Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
Luk 8:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
Jesus explains what happened:
Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Thus in the above, Jesus taught that some believe for a while, and then fall away.
There are other examples of falling away, in scripture.
Shalom.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
