Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

[Timtofly]

Is there a correlation between Revelation 20 and earlier passages in the Book of Revelation?

Is Revelation chapter 20 another example of “Recapitulation”?

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Death is still Death. Has nothing to do with chronology. All humanity headed for the lake of fire will end up in the lake of fire. That has not changed since the birth of Seth. Still has nothing to do with chronology. I guess I will never get a straight answer that indeed amil chronology will not work. I am not even a priest looking for a confession. No answer will have to be the answer.

 

[BABerean2]

I am not even a priest looking for a confession.

There is only one priest in the New Covenant.

Heb_4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.


.

 

[iamlamad]

That is correct.

I know where pretribs find it. I just disagree that the references to "42 months" and "1260 days" are meant to be taken literally.

I feel the same way after I lay things out very simply. For example, when I show how 2 Peter 3 matches up with 1 Thess 5 and yet people like yourself somehow think Paul was talking about something besides global destruction.

This is funny, alright. If Jesus was coming more than once, why didn't He mention that? Do not tell me it's because it was intended to be a mystery at that point. The mystery was all of us (dead in Christ and those still alive) being changed and having immortal bodies. There was no mystery to Jesus coming back and having His people gathered to Him. He mentioned that specifically in Matt 24:31 (and Mark 13:27).

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here. I believe "the clouds" is a symbolic reference to His angels (Jesus called them the "clouds of heaven") and Paul did not give any indication that He would be hidden. Where are you getting that from? It's certainly not in the text itself.

How are you coming to that conclusion? What he talks about in 1 Thess 5, which you acknowledge happens at the same time, is the END of the tribulation, not the beginning. Again, I have to point to 2 Peter 3 which indicates that the destruction that comes down on the day of the Lord is GLOBAL. That is why Paul said "they will not escape".

What's the difference between "the trib" and "GT"? I see tribulation described pretty much throughout the book of Revelation. There has been tribulation for God's people from the beginning and for Christians for the past 2000 years. As Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:11, "everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted".

I don't see the rapture specifically described in Revelation. It's possible that Rev 11 alludes to it where it speaks of the two witnesses being resurrected and caught up, but I'm not certain. I don't see the two witnesses as being two individuals. They are called "two olive trees" and "two lampstands". I don't see how that would describe two individuals.

But in terms of a time when the persecution will be increased, I would see Rev 11:7-10 as alluding to that and Rev 20:7-9. Though we've always had tribulation, I would consider Satan's little season to be a time of great tribulation. I believe it's the time that Paul talks about in 2 Thess 2. Paul pointed out in 2 Thess 2:7 that "the secret power of lawlessness is already at work" back then, but he alludes to the time when it would be unrestrained. I believe it becomes unrestrained at that time because Satan will no longer be restrained from keeping the gospel from freely spreading through the world at that point. As Paul said that time period will be in accord with the works of Satan (2 Thess 2:9).

As for your last question, I assume you're referring to Rev 7:9-17. That scene is in heaven, so I assume that's referring to the souls of dead believers being in heaven before God's throne and worshiping Him.

I just disagree that the references to "42 months" and "1260 days" are meant to be taken literally. I find this fascinating!

How would one compare 1260 days and 42 months. Let's divide 1260 by 42: we get 30 days in a month; just what Sir Robert Anderson figured out. There is also an OT passage that shows this, but I have forgotten where it is.

So we have Dan. 9:27 telling us of a complete week. If in 30 day months, that would be 7 years times 12 months in a year or 84 months - and if we divide that to get a half we we get 42 months.

If we take the 7 years times 30 days in a month times 12 months in the year, we get 2520 days for the 7 years. Dividing that by 2 for the half year, we get 1260 days.

Since this is all so accurate and these times are actually for countdowns from the midpoint to the end of the week, I am amazed that you consider them symbolic. But then, you consider most things I take as literal as symbolic. It makes me wonder, do you take the river of life and symbolic? The streets of gold? Maybe you take the entire city foursqure as symbolic!

Let's go deeper:
42 months countdown from 11:2 to the end. I asked the Lord what this was about. I did not hear a voice or words. But I believe I got an answer: the man of sin will enter the temple, as Paul told us, and it will be the abomination that will divide the week, so he will enter the temple on day 1260 from the start of the week. The answer I got was he must first get to Jerusalem if he is to enter the temple in Jerusalem. 11:1-2 is about his arrival in Jerusalem with Gentile military troops. They are who trample the city.

Next, because the man of sin just showed up in Jerusalem, probably just 3.5 days before the abomination that will divide the week, God sends the Two Witnesses. Elijah will surely be one of them. I guess Enoch for the second. They must testify from this timing of 11:3 to the end of their 1260 days. since they start just before the division point, their 1260 days will take them to just before the end of the week.

Then there is the 1260 days of fleeing. I can assure you, Jesus was not being symbolic when He told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination. And we find the starting point of their 1260 day countdown in 12:6. That verse would be only seconds after the abomination - marked by the 7th trumpet.

Please allow me to regress for a moment. I was just minding my own business one day, reading Dan. 9:27. When my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" SUDDENLY God spoke. It sounded so audible I thought all in the room would hear it! It was loud and clear. He said,

"You could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation."

I was instantly "in the spirit" and could not move. My spirit man spoke and I heard him (me): "How would I find that?"

Jesus answered: (I am quite sure it was Jesus speaking): "Every time I mentioned an event that would start at the midpoint, and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint." Then, almost as an afterthought, He added: "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week clearly marked."

So, what did I learn?
There WAS a 70th week in Revelation, 7 years long..
The 70th week in Revelation had an exact midpoint that was clearly marked.
That God used the same marker for the beginning and ending of the week.

I already knew of the five mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time He mentioned. So I studied chapters 11-13 for weeks on end, hours each day. Finally I found the exact midpoint clearly marked: the 7th trumpet. I rushed in my bible to the 7th vial and read "it is done." I knew then I had found what He sent me to find. But I rushed to the 7th seal and read of the 30 minutes of silence. I was amazed: HOW LIKE GOD to mark the 70th week with 7's!

So how does this revelation fit with amil? I don't think it does. At all.

yet people like yourself somehow think Paul was talking about something besides global destruction. I know what Paul's "Sudden destruction earthquake is: a worldwide earthquake that will be caused when God pulls together the "dust" that once made up the saint's bodies. It will be worldwide because the dead in Christ will be found worldwide. Does a big earthquake kill all the people? No, it only kills some of the people. Since Paul's rapture will come just before the 6th seal start of God's wrath, then who are all those people after the sudden destruction earthquake that go into the holes in the rocks and cry for the rocks to fall on them? Well, they are PEOPLE that survived the sudden destruction. Paul CERTAINLY gives no hint that all of the population dies. And if we just follow John's chronology we KNOW they did not. Did God tell us that He will kill 1/3 of earth's population? Yes, He did. If He were to wipe out everyone, I think He would tell us.

If Jesus was coming more than once, why didn't He mention that? It is a fair question. But then, should we question what God could or should have said? I think I know the answer. The church of today did not exist then and just may not have ever existed. God waited after Pentecost for a reasonable amount of time to see if Israel as a nation would accept Him as their messiah. They did not, so THEN He sent Paul to the Gentiles. The church of today is the result. Make no mistake here:

It was another one of Paul's mysteries:

Roman's 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

That "fullness" is ongoing.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This is taught as well: how pre trib is taught.

Who ever associates Paul's rapture with John's Revelation if they read the books at separate times? It can be taught that way, but not by every single pastor or evangelist in the entire earth. If people make a connection, they can give their opinion on the topic. In fact there is no concensus of the church on the matter, so no way does any one hold the complete truth, on the basis of private opinion alone.

Again, nothing but ongoing avoidance from Pretribbers. That is because they have nothing to bring to the table. The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I just disagree that the references to "42 months" and "1260 days" are meant to be taken literally. I find this fascinating!

How would one compare 1260 days and 42 months. Let's divide 1260 by 42: we get 30 days in a month; just what Sir Robert Anderson figured out. There is also an OT passage that shows this, but I have forgotten where it is.

So we have Dan. 9:27 telling us of a complete week. If in 30 day months, that would be 7 years times 12 months in a year or 84 months - and if we divide that to get a half we we get 42 months.

If we take the 7 years times 30 days in a month times 12 months in the year, we get 2520 days for the 7 years. Dividing that by 2 for the half year, we get 1260 days.

Since this is all so accurate and these times are actually for countdowns from the midpoint to the end of the week, I am amazed that you consider them symbolic. But then, you consider most things I take as literal as symbolic. It makes me wonder, do you take the river of life and symbolic? The streets of gold? Maybe you take the entire city foursqure as symbolic!

Let's go deeper:
42 months countdown from 11:2 to the end. I asked the Lord what this was about. I did not hear a voice or words. But I believe I got an answer: the man of sin will enter the temple, as Paul told us, and it will be the abomination that will divide the week, so he will enter the temple on day 1260 from the start of the week. The answer I got was he must first get to Jerusalem if he is to enter the temple in Jerusalem. 11:1-2 is about his arrival in Jerusalem with Gentile military troops. They are who trample the city.

Next, because the man of sin just showed up in Jerusalem, probably just 3.5 days before the abomination that will divide the week, God sends the Two Witnesses. Elijah will surely be one of them. I guess Enoch for the second. They must testify from this timing of 11:3 to the end of their 1260 days. since they start just before the division point, their 1260 days will take them to just before the end of the week.

Then there is the 1260 days of fleeing. I can assure you, Jesus was not being symbolic when He told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination. And we find the starting point of their 1260 day countdown in 12:6. That verse would be only seconds after the abomination - marked by the 7th trumpet.

Please allow me to regress for a moment. I was just minding my own business one day, reading Dan. 9:27. When my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" SUDDENLY God spoke. It sounded so audible I thought all in the room would hear it! It was loud and clear. He said,

"You could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation."

I was instantly "in the spirit" and could not move. My spirit man spoke and I heard him (me): "How would I find that?"

Jesus answered: (I am quite sure it was Jesus speaking): "Every time I mentioned an event that would start at the midpoint, and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint." Then, almost as an afterthought, He added: "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week clearly marked."

So, what did I learn?
There WAS a 70th week in Revelation, 7 years long..
The 70th week in Revelation had an exact midpoint that was clearly marked.
That God used the same marker for the beginning and ending of the week.

I already knew of the five mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time He mentioned. So I studied chapters 11-13 for weeks on end, hours each day. Finally I found the exact midpoint clearly marked: the 7th trumpet. I rushed in my bible to the 7th vial and read "it is done." I knew then I had found what He sent me to find. But I rushed to the 7th seal and read of the 30 minutes of silence. I was amazed: HOW LIKE GOD to mark the 70th week with 7's!

So how does this revelation fit with amil? I don't think it does. At all.

yet people like yourself somehow think Paul was talking about something besides global destruction. I know what Paul's "Sudden destruction earthquake is: a worldwide earthquake that will be caused when God pulls together the "dust" that once made up the saint's bodies. It will be worldwide because the dead in Christ will be found worldwide. Does a big earthquake kill all the people? No, it only kills some of the people. Since Paul's rapture will come just before the 6th seal start of God's wrath, then who are all those people after the sudden destruction earthquake that go into the holes in the rocks and cry for the rocks to fall on them? Well, they are PEOPLE that survived the sudden destruction. Paul CERTAINLY gives no hint that all of the population dies. And if we just follow John's chronology we KNOW they did not. Did God tell us that He will kill 1/3 of earth's population? Yes, He did. If He were to wipe out everyone, I think He would tell us.

If Jesus was coming more than once, why didn't He mention that? It is a fair question. But then, should we question what God could or should have said? I think I know the answer. The church of today did not exist then and just may not have ever existed. God waited after Pentecost for a reasonable amount of time to see if Israel as a nation would accept Him as their messiah. They did not, so THEN He sent Paul to the Gentiles. The church of today is the result. Make no mistake here:

It was another one of Paul's mysteries:

Roman's 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

That "fullness" is ongoing.

Have you or any Pretrib bothered to even question what you have been taught?

Dispensationalist Pretrib writers wrongly argue that Revelation 4:1 is the secret rapture, and that Revelation 4-19 is a harmonious chronological 7-year tribulation period. However, there isn’t one single reference to a seven-year tribulation in the book of Revelation as there also isn’t in the whole of the New Testament. In fact, there is only one reference to the term seven-years in the New Testament in Luke 2:36. It describes “Anna” living with her “husband seven years from her virginity.” No other reference!!! When Pretribber are pressed they quote Daniel 9 which (1) is an historic account that has already been fulfilled, (2) which related to Messiah’s first Coming and which makes no reference to a supposed rapture and a third Coming of Christ.

When we examine the time-periods embodied within Revelation 4-19 we significantly find that they add up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

5 months – the wicked tormented (Rev 9:5-10).
1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour – four angels prepared to pour out the 6th trumpet judgment (Rev 9:15)
42 months – the temple trampled by Gentiles (Rev 11:2).
1260 days – the two witnesses prophesy (Rev 11:3).
3 ½ days – two witnesses lie dead (Rev 11:9).
1260 days – woman flees into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6).
Times, time, and half a time – woman nourished in the wilderness (Rev 12:14).
42 months – power given to the beast (Rev 13:5).
1 hour – the beast receives power with the ten kings (Rev 17:12).
1 hour – Babylon destroyed (Rev 18:10-19).

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18 ½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4 ½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

TOTAL 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

This is calculated by:

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

There are five 3 ½ years:

42 months from Rev 11:2 (temple trampled by Gentiles).
1260 days from Rev 11:3 (two witnesses prophesy).
1260 days from Rev 12:6 (woman flees into the wilderness).
Times, time, and half a time from Rev 12:14 (woman nourished in the wilderness).
42 months from Rev 13:5 (power given to the beast)

42months + 1260days + 1260days + times, time, and half a time (assuming 3 ½ years interpretation) + 42 months = A 17.5 year period in Revelation

It doesn't matter what way you look at Pretrib it doesn't add up. It is a man-made doctrine! Your failure to provide one single text teaching it exposes its error.

 

[Timtofly]

Did you notice that the FP could only do miracles when he was in close proximity to the Beast? Why is that? My guess is, Satan will have possessed the man of sin, and is INSIDE Him, hidden from view. So the FP has to be close to the Beast to be close enough to Satan inside the beast to assist the FP in his false miracles.

Satan cannot enter a person. Satan is the beast from the earth. That is how the FP is close to Satan. Now can the demon of Antiochus take over a human alive today and make the world think Antiochus has returned? Demons come from fallen human spirits, not physically created Angels, void of any spirit at all.

 

[iamlamad]

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here. I believe "the clouds" is a symbolic reference to His angels (Jesus called them the "clouds of heaven") and Paul did not give any indication that He would be hidden. Where are you getting that from? It's certainly not in the text itself.

Let's look:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Upon retrospect, maybe I cannot say that any longer. Every verse of His Rev. 19 coming, is "in the clouds," yet "every eye will see Him" then. So it seems He is not hidden by the clouds. Thanks for bringing that up. Perhaps He is going to be visible in this prewrath coming. Will the WORLD see Him then? Maybe so. Will they see the church flying away? I don't know. I think they are just ordinary clouds that are "in the air." Paul does not mention hords of angels here. There may be but just not mentioned. Of course, one cloud could well be a cloud of glory.

 

[Timtofly]

It is Premils that are at odds with Revelation 20. They deny Christ is the first resurrection and build their doctrine from there. They make us the first resurrection. It is an error.

You keep accusing them of things I have never even heard of. Nice way of avoiding the truth of Revelation 20 yourself. Adam blamed Eve. Eve blamed Satan. You blame Pre-mill for your theology.

One wrong does not make another wrong right. You both are in error, you and those you blame. I do not know what else to say when you pass the buck onto another theology.

You do not even address my points on which resurrection is what. If Satan was bound at the same time the first resurrection happened in Revelation 20, then those people raised from the dead are still alive on earth as much as Satan is bound in the pit. They both happened at the same time before the 1000 years even if you do not accept the time is now or in the past.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You keep accusing them of things I have never even heard of. Nice way of avoiding the truth of Revelation 20 yourself. Adam blamed Eve. Eve blamed Satan. You blame Pre-mill for your theology.

One wrong does not make another wrong right. You both are in error, you and those you blame. I do not know what else to say when you pass the buck onto another theology.

You do not even address my points on which resurrection is what. If Satan was bound at the same time the first resurrection happened in Revelation 20, then those people raised from the dead are still alive on earth as much as Satan is bound in the pit. They both happened at the same time before the 1000 years even if you do not accept the time is now or in the past.

Simple: they were spiritually raised from the dead through Christ's first resurrection.

 

[iamlamad]

How are you coming to that conclusion? What he talks about in 1 Thess 5, which you acknowledge happens at the same time, is the END of the tribulation, not the beginning.

The timing of His coming in Matthew 24 and in Rev. 19 is "after the tribulation of those days." In the 1 Thes 4 coming, "the trib has not yet started.

How are you coming to that conclusion? What he talks about in 1 Thess 5, which you acknowledge happens at the same time, is the END of the tribulation, not the beginning.
I honestly have no idea how you come to that conclusion. It certainly cannot come from 1 thes. 4 & 5 text, which is the text in question. We have to go by Paul's timing, not imaginary timing. Agreed?

How do I come to that conclusion? Paul mentions the Day of the Lord just three verses after His classic rapture verse: verse 17. Why would he do that - unless the Day of the Lord did indeed follow the rapture? Paul goes on then and tells of wrath following the rapture, RIGHT after.

We are not living in God's wrath now. No trumpets are sounding. (They are future.) We are at the 5th seal time of the martyrs - waiting for the full number of martyrs. They were told that judgment time must wait for their full number.

Rev. 6:11
CJB Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been.

NET Each of them was given a long white robe and they were told to rest for a little longer, until the full number was reached of both their fellow servants and their brothers who were going to be killed just as they had been.

NIV Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

What will make that full number? What would make a certain church age martyr if the FINAL church age martyr? Of course, the end of the church age. What event will end the church age? Of course the pretrib rapture. (All these things you don't believe in are going to happen around you and you will be wondering...)

What comes next in Revelation? The 6th seal which is the start of the wrath of God.

I can't imagine how you view this 6th seal. I am sure not the way I view it. It will be the START of the Day of the Lord - that very day that Paul said would follow his rapture. It is in chapter 6, not chapter 19 where Jesus comes to Armageddon. That may not mean anything to you, but again, it means much to me. I follow John's chronology.

Rev. 5
1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Reading these verses, which is most important: the book or the seals sealing the book? Of course it is the BOOK that is important. The seals main purpose is to keep anyone unauthorized from opening the book. So when John gets the last seal open, what logically should happen? The BOOK would be opened. Only, it seems John did not tell us that. We have to infer it from what John did tell us.

It is my opinion that at a minimum, the trumpets are written inside the book. I rather think the book includes the ENTIRE 70th week. In other words, if God cannot find someone worthy to open the seals, the 70th week will not come, and Satan would remain the god of this world forever. See how important this book is?

Because the seals seal the book, and the trumpets are what is written inside the book, NO trumpet can sound with any seal. No seal can be opened with any trumpet EXCEPT the first trumpet will follow soon after the 7th and final seal is opened.

All of that was said, to say this: the 6th seal cannot be moved ANYWHERE ELSE in the book of Revelation or outside the book. It is one of the seals sealing the book. What is inside the book is more important than any one seal or all the seals. What is inside the book will END Satan's reign as god of this world.

Therefore, when Paul shows us that His rapture comes before the Day of the Lord, and the Day starts at the 6th seal, then the rapture must come before the 6th seal, and that is before the 7th seal, so before any trumpet judgment, and before any part of the 70th week.

So when you say, 1 Thess 5... is the END of the tribulation, not the beginning, I know you are not getting this from scripture, so it must come from your imagination. If I am wrong, please, show where you come to this conclusion.

Summary:
Paul tells us his rapture comes just before the Day of the Lord
John tells us the Day of the Lord starts at the 6th seal.
John shows us the 6th seal is only one of seven sealing the book - so the book cannot be opened to reveal the trumpets until all seven seals are opened first.

The 6th seal then comes before any part of the 70th week or "trib."

Therefore, Paul's rapture comes before the week, not after.

 

[Timtofly]

The 7th seal shows silence in heaven. Why? It has been emptied for man to populate the new earth.

It was already empty. Tell me who was in heaven after just meeting in the air above the ground. Not even the throne was in heaven at that point. Inventive though. I have to agree though that Jesus has begun His earthly ministry and was not in heaven. This time of Jesus on earth with His 144K disciples do happen at the same time as the Trumpets and Thunders. So sure, they are on earth while the church and God on the throne watch from the "sidelines".

 

[iamlamad]

How are you coming to that conclusion? What he talks about in 1 Thess 5, which you acknowledge happens at the same time, is the END of the tribulation, not the beginning. Again, I have to point to 2 Peter 3 which indicates that the destruction that comes down on the day of the Lord is GLOBAL. That is why Paul said "they will not escape".

First, I must make notice that the Day of the Lord is NOT just one 24 hour day: it begins before the week and continues on past the 1000 years. So what Peter said could happen ANY TIME during the extended period we call "The Day of the Lord." If we study Revelation, one think we notice is that the DAY starts before the WEEK and the week ends but the DAY continues. Therefore, the 70th week of Daniel is INSIDE the Day of the Lord.

Second, the DAY starts in chapter 6 of Revelation and continues on at least to chapter 21. Therefore, what Peter said could happen anywhere in Revelation from chapter 7 on to chapter 21. Therefore, it is really impossible to tie 2 Peter 3 to Paul's sudden destruction. His is an eathquake, not destruction by fire. I am beginning to see how you came up with your theories.

Back to "the day." It is a day where God will destroy the world and he sinners in the world. But this happens OVER TIME, not suddenly! God has GREAT mercy and gives people time to repent. If we just follow John, the DAY starts at the 6th seal, but really the first "salvo" does not come until the first trumpet judgment. Then all trumpets do not sound at once, but are spread out over the first 1260 days of the week. Again, God and mercy. Each trumpet get worse and the last three are woes. But God has given the people 3 1/2 years of His wrath before He allows Satan's wrath to come.

Therefore, I find your theories just don't match the way I read the scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

Again, you have zero Scripture. Sadly, Pretrib is a denial of the biblical facts. Many of us want held to it and are now free.

Do you mean enslaved to Satan’s little season on earth?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What if Peter is meant to be taken literally when he says that the heavens and earth will be destroyed by fire at Christ's second coming
Let's look: 2 Peter 3:

Where would that leave those who think he forgot or neglected to mention a thousand year earthly millennial kingdom The literal fire is the literal cleansing the earth will go through in preparation for the millennial kingdom. Where God will put PEOPLE while the earth is burning He has not said. I am sure He has it figured out.

I'm sorry, but this is not a convincing argument whatsoever. Peter clearly describes the entire earth being burned up at that time, so to try to say that any mortals could survive that is beyond unreasonable.

2 Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Peter makes it very clear that "everything will be destroyed" by the fire. No exceptions. No mortals can survive that. There is no hint there that anyone would survive.

Also, verse 13 makes it clear that the result of this burning of the heavens and earth by fire will be "the new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness dwells". Not an earthly millennial kingdom.

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly, the symbols represent realities. But they are only symbols. The prison and chains are spiritual restraints on the devil up until just before the second coming.

Revelation 20 does not state that nor imply that. Revelation 20 states Jesus is reigning on earth physically. Satan gathers an army to oust Jesus Christ out of Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

First, I must make notice that the Day of the Lord is NOT just one 24 hour day: it begins before the week and continues on past the 1000 years.

Where do you get the idea from that the day of the Lord is 1000 years? Both 1 Thess 5:1-6 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 give no indication of that whatsoever. Not even close. They both speak of destruction coming down upon the entire earth "suddenly". And the destruction is by fire. Do you think the destruction takes 1000 years?

So what Peter said could happen ANY TIME during the extended period we call "The Day of the Lord."

Where does he even hint at such a thing? Nowhere.

Back to "the day." It is a day where God will destroy the world and he sinners in the world. But this happens OVER TIME, not suddenly!

Please stop contradicting Paul.

1 Thess 5: 1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Passages like these could not be more clear. You are turning something clear and straightforward into an incomprehensible mess. Why can you not accept what Paul and Peter wrote about the day of the Lord?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 20 does not state that nor imply that. Revelation 20 states Jesus is reigning on earth physically. Satan gathers an army to oust Jesus Christ out of Jerusalem.

Where does Rev 20 state that Jesus is reigning on earth physically? Please be very specific about where exactly it states that.

 

[Timtofly]

I honestly do not know what you were trying to say. What has all this to do with my post?

You make it sound that those during 67 and 70 AD had the same Bible and church upbringing that you have had. No one thought Satan was bound and that this destruction was God’s wrath on the whole world. Nothing in Revelation had even happened yet.

 

[iamlamad]

What's the difference between "the trib" and "GT"? I see tribulation described pretty much throughout the book of Revelation. There has been tribulation for God's people from the beginning and for Christians for the past 2000 years. As Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:11, "everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted".

"The trib" is (almost) a man made title, I guess for the entire 70th week. Jesus did say, "after the tribulation of those days..." Did He mean the entire 7 years or just the last half or perhaps only the days of GT? I don't know.

I don't use it except to quote someone else. Jesus also said, "then shall be days of great tribulation." He did not put a title on the last half of the week. He clearly said "days."

If by "the trib" you mean the entire 70th week, then it is self explanatory. What then is the days of GT? I can answer that.

The Beast and false prophet are going to create an image and a mark, and they force people to worship the image and receive their mark, or lose their head. My guess is, the nations of the world will work with them so it is going to make the Holocaust seem small. I think many millions will be beheaded. God will send angels to warn people the consequences of taking the mark (fire and brimstone forever), so GREAT PRESSURE will be put on people. No one can buy or sell without the mark. It is going to be just about impossible to live and NOT take the mark. Imagine you are a Jew hiding in Berlin in 1943! If you are found, no question you are killed. People jumped into outside toilets to hide.

So this will go on day after day, starting late in Rev. 14. The beheaded begin to show up in heaven in chapter 15. How many days no one knows but God. But when the beheading reaches a fevor peak (Satan's wrath at its worst) God will say enough is enough and send angels to pour out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days. The 42 months will continue, but they will NOT be days of GT. They will just be days of darkness, pain and dread.

There has been tribulation for God's people from the beginning and for Christians for the past 2000 years. Agreed. But these were not the days Jesus said would be worse than all others. They are just days of tribulation because Satan hates us. And added together, God called the church age "great tribulation" in Rev. 7. Speaking of the raptured church - that crowd too large to number - He said they came out of great tribulation - the entire church age.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Now you have painted yourself into a corner!
Let's talk about TIME.

1 Thes. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Rev, 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Why would Paul mention the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after his classic rapture verse - UNLESS - they were connected in some way?

Is John just wasting words here in 6:17? Of did He really START the Day of the Lord? Some say it was only PEOPLE saying it, so it is not true. I disagree.

How do you think that you painted me into a corner here? That is hilarious. You did no such thing. You only think so because you read the whole book chronologically instead of recognizing that it contains several parallel passages.

Why are you so willing to interpret the book of Revelation in such a way that it contradicts what Peter and Paul wrote and makes them look like fools? I don't get it.