Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

[iamlamad]

Is the day 24 hours or 1000 years? I believe 24 hours. The events Paul described in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 and what Peter described in 2 Peter 3:3-13 happen within one 24 hour day, which is the day that Christ returns.

Now you have painted yourself into a corner!
Let's talk about TIME.

1 Thes. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Rev, 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Why would Paul mention the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after his classic rapture verse - UNLESS - they were connected in some way?

Is John just wasting words here in 6:17? Of did He really START the Day of the Lord? Some say it was only PEOPLE saying it, so it is not true. I disagree.

Can we summarize the DAY from Old Testament verses?

Isaiah 13:6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.

Look at the first trumpet judgments. No one will doubt they are about God systematically destroying the land. All the grass burned up, and 1/3 of the trees is destruction of the land. Turning 1/3 of the sea into blood is destroying the land (sea included). Turning 1/3 of fresh water into nuclear waste water is destroying the land. So there can be NO DOUBT: the DAY starts at the 6th seal, or if someone insists, at the 7th. So every trumpet judgment comes with His wrath, destroying the land. Will killing 1/3 of the people be God destroying the sinners from the land? Of course.

Therefore, God and John START the Day of the Lord, right where it is first mentioned in Revelation: at the 6th seal. So what TIME is it at the 6th seal? It is still in our future. We have not gotten to the time of judgment yet. No trumpet has sounded.

Where does the rapture - PAUL'S gathering - fit in Revelation? Just before wrath. Paul goes on:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

What is Paul saying? WE get raptured and so MISS God's wrath, but those left behind can't escape God's wrath. We have not seen God's wrath. We live during a time of grace. When God's wrath starts, all will know it.

NOW, OF COURSE Jesus comes for the rapture; Paul TELLS US it is a coming. But is it a coming with fire? NO! He remains in a cloud and then takes the church back to heaven to wait out wrath on earth. Will "every eye see Him?" NO! He is hidden in a cloud. There is ample scriptural references to believe there are TWO MORE comings: first hidden in a cloud FOR His saints, then another coming later, after God's wrath has been abated, WITH His saints.

Summary: His coming FOR His saints - No white horses - no fire - no eye (of the world) seeing him. (of course those caught up WITH HIm will see Him.)

His coming WITH His saints - coming with flaming fire - every eye will see Him

Therefore, I disagree with you. These are two separate events separate by TIME: in this case over 7 years of time.

 

[Timtofly]

Why did he call the age where people would not marry or die "the age to come" if that age already existed at that time in heaven? That doesn't make any sense. No, Jesus was clearly referring to the future age to come when the eternal new heavens and new earth are ushered in.

I've never seen anyone else interpret Luke 20:34-36 in this way. You have a lot of private interpretations of things that only you believe in as far as I can tell. That raises a red flag. Why would God reveal the truth of these things only to you?

He said that before the Cross. Saying, "it is finished" on the Cross was the end of Abraham, the Law, and the OT church. It was the Atonement that covered the OT, but now ushered in The NT. The Cross was the end of one age and the beginning of the next. Jesus implies that now the church would not be of the earth and earthly as in the Law. It was heavenly and resides in incorruptible bodies in the heavens. Death ending the biological reproduction process. Paradise is now the age and home of the church.

Why would expounding the Word of God be a red flag. Would you not call into question every sermon ever preached from Peter until today? Why has no one in 1990 years asked what happens when Lord God Himself shows up on earth? Seems fairly important to me. They all said woe is me at just hearing it. Revelation 6:16-17

“Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb! 17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

Luke 20
When the people heard this, they said, “Heaven forbid!”

Time to pay up is almost here. Not just the Lamb singular. The face of the One sitting on the throne as well. How could this not be the Lord of the earth showing up as well, if all, everyone, not just the church can see it happen?

It was taken away from the house of Israel. Now it will be taken away from the church. The church being the stewards for the last 1990 years, no? It was given to the church at the Cross, or at least by Pentacost.

Amill now stand in the position (of the Pharisees and Sadducees) and deny that there will be one last Lord's Day after the Lord on the throne actually does come to earth. So I ask who has the most to loose when God sets up His throne literally?

The parable was very much symbolic. No question there. Was the son killed just symbolic or was there an actual literal physical instance referred to. Were the stewards literal humans and was there a literal change once? Has God yet to set up His throne or did we miss that in physical literal history?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Now you have painted yourself into a corner!
Let's talk about TIME.

1 Thes. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Rev, 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Why would Paul mention the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after his classic rapture verse - UNLESS - they were connected in some way?

Is John just wasting words here in 6:17? Of did He really START the Day of the Lord? Some say it was only PEOPLE saying it, so it is not true. I disagree.

Can we summarize the DAY from Old Testament verses?

Isaiah 13:6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.

Look at the first trumpet judgments. No one will doubt they are about God systematically destroying the land. All the grass burned up, and 1/3 of the trees is destruction of the land. Turning 1/3 of the sea into blood is destroying the land (sea included). Turning 1/3 of fresh water into nuclear waste water is destroying the land. So there can be NO DOUBT: the DAY starts at the 6th seal, or if someone insists, at the 7th. So every trumpet judgment comes with His wrath, destroying the land. Will killing 1/3 of the people be God destroying the sinners from the land? Of course.

Therefore, God and John START the Day of the Lord, right where it is first mentioned in Revelation: at the 6th seal. So what TIME is it at the 6th seal? It is still in our future. We have not gotten to the time of judgment yet. No trumpet has sounded.

Where does the rapture - PAUL'S gathering - fit in Revelation? Just before wrath. Paul goes on:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

What is Paul saying? WE get raptured and so MISS God's wrath, but those left behind can't escape God's wrath. We have not seen God's wrath. We live during a time of grace. When God's wrath starts, all will know it.

NOW, OF COURSE Jesus comes for the rapture; Paul TELLS US it is a coming. But is it a coming with fire? NO! He remains in a cloud and then takes the church back to heaven to wait out wrath on earth. Will "every eye see Him?" NO! He is hidden in a cloud. There is ample scriptural references to believe there are TWO MORE comings: first hidden in a cloud FOR His saints, then another coming later, after God's wrath has been abated, WITH His saints.

Summary: His coming FOR His saints - No white horses - no fire - no eye (of the world) seeing him. (of course those caught up WITH HIm will see Him.)

His coming WITH His saints - coming with flaming fire - every eye will see Him

Therefore, I disagree with you. These are two separate events separate by TIME: in this case over 7 years of time.

Again, no Scripture teaches a 7-year trib after the catching away. You have nothing to bring to the table. You are only articulating what you have been taught. This is an extra-biblical doctrine.

 

[Timtofly]

He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.

No He is in Jerusalem, not coming to earth. Not even symbolically in Revelation 20. That is the whole point. Satan is not waiting in Jerusalem. Jesus is waiting in Jerusalem while Satan comes from the ends of the earth. Satan is destroyed by fire from God. (Still sitting on the throne in view of the whole earth for the last 1000 years.) Where does it say the throne ever changes position since chapter 6?

 

[sovereigngrace]

He said that before the Cross. Saying, "it is finished" on the Cross was the end of Abraham, the Law, and the OT church. It was the Atonement that covered the OT, but now ushered in The NT. The Cross was the end of one age and the beginning of the next. Jesus implies that now the church would not be of the earth and earthly as in the Law. It was heavenly and resides in incorruptible bodies in the heavens. Death ending the biological reproduction process. Paradise is now the age and home of the church.

Why would expounding the Word of God be a red flag. Would you not call into question every sermon ever preached from Peter until today? Why has no one in 1990 years asked what happens when Lord God Himself shows up on earth? Seems fairly important to me. They all said woe is me at just hearing it. Revelation 6:16-17

“Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb! 17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

Luke 20
When the people heard this, they said, “Heaven forbid!”

Time to pay up is almost here. Not just the Lamb singular. The face of the One sitting on the throne as well. How could this not be the Lord of the earth showing up as well, if all, everyone, not just the church can see it happen?

It was taken away from the house of Israel. Now it will be taken away from the church. The church being the stewards for the last 1990 years, no? It was given to the church at the Cross, or at least by Pentacost.

Amill now stand in the position (of the Pharisees and Sadducees) and deny that there will be one last Lord's Day after the Lord on the throne actually does come to earth. So I ask who has the most to loose when God sets up His throne literally?

The parable was very much symbolic. No question there. Was the son killed just symbolic or was there an actual literal physical instance referred to. Were the stewards literal humans and was there a literal change once? Has God yet to set up His throne or did we miss that in physical literal history?

You have got everything back to front. That is why you cannot grasp what Scripture is saying on this subject. The opposite is actually the truth. What you advocate re the introduction of a carnal earthly kingdom, where the Messiah subjugates the Gentiles and rules over them with an iron rod, where Israel enjoys a superior racial place above all other nations, where the old covenant arrangement and conditions become the norm again, is actually a modern rehash of the racial man-centered, earth-bound, prejudice theology of the Pharisees that caused then to justify rejecting Christ and crucifying our Savior. This theology was rejected by all the ECFs and was foisted upon Christianity by the heretic Cerenthius. He was the father what is known as Premil today.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Now you have painted yourself into a corner!
Let's talk about TIME.

1 Thes. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Rev, 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Why would Paul mention the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after his classic rapture verse - UNLESS - they were connected in some way?

Is John just wasting words here in 6:17? Of did He really START the Day of the Lord? Some say it was only PEOPLE saying it, so it is not true. I disagree.

Can we summarize the DAY from Old Testament verses?

Isaiah 13:6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.

Look at the first trumpet judgments. No one will doubt they are about God systematically destroying the land. All the grass burned up, and 1/3 of the trees is destruction of the land. Turning 1/3 of the sea into blood is destroying the land (sea included). Turning 1/3 of fresh water into nuclear waste water is destroying the land. So there can be NO DOUBT: the DAY starts at the 6th seal, or if someone insists, at the 7th. So every trumpet judgment comes with His wrath, destroying the land. Will killing 1/3 of the people be God destroying the sinners from the land? Of course.

Therefore, God and John START the Day of the Lord, right where it is first mentioned in Revelation: at the 6th seal. So what TIME is it at the 6th seal? It is still in our future. We have not gotten to the time of judgment yet. No trumpet has sounded.

Where does the rapture - PAUL'S gathering - fit in Revelation? Just before wrath. Paul goes on:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

What is Paul saying? WE get raptured and so MISS God's wrath, but those left behind can't escape God's wrath. We have not seen God's wrath. We live during a time of grace. When God's wrath starts, all will know it.

NOW, OF COURSE Jesus comes for the rapture; Paul TELLS US it is a coming. But is it a coming with fire? NO! He remains in a cloud and then takes the church back to heaven to wait out wrath on earth. Will "every eye see Him?" NO! He is hidden in a cloud. There is ample scriptural references to believe there are TWO MORE comings: first hidden in a cloud FOR His saints, then another coming later, after God's wrath has been abated, WITH His saints.

Summary: His coming FOR His saints - No white horses - no fire - no eye (of the world) seeing him. (of course those caught up WITH HIm will see Him.)

His coming WITH His saints - coming with flaming fire - every eye will see Him

Therefore, I disagree with you. These are two separate events separate by TIME: in this case over 7 years of time.

Where you err is making the wrath of God a 7-year trib. This is not a biblical truth but a Pretrib invention. The wrath of God that is poured out when Jesus comes is completely different to the tribulation that believers undergo from Satan and the beast prior to the coming of Christ. The fact you cannot furnish us with any scriptural support for the same exposes it as being extra-biblical.

 

[Timtofly]

No. What occurs in 1 Thess 5 happens "suddenly" and immediately after what is described in 1 Thess 4. That fits post-trib just fine, since they both describe what happens at the end of tribulation when Christ returns.

So God does not deal with unbelievers and there is no FP and AC. Thanks for clearing that up. The Second Coming is total annihilation of the physical, with nothing left to accomplish on earth, would be your theology? All are transferred to the GWT and then into eternity. This happens at the 6th seal, and nothing after that happens. The Trumpets Thunders and vials happen instantaneously while Christ approaches through the heavens between the 5th and 6th seal. Because John seems to indicate that everything after the 6th seal is The Lamb dealing with unbelievers. But you wrap that all up into mere seconds before total annihilation of the physical. Obviously, one can hardly say anything in Revelation 8-20 has physically happened. It was just spiritual in the realm out of reach. Now that it is over spiritually, we will realize it physically seconds before total annihilation.

 

[Timtofly]

For whatever reason you just don't understand anything I tell you and don't have any understanding of the amil view. It's fine if you disagree with it, but you don't even understand it. It's impossible to have a good discussion with someone who has no idea what I'm talking about (whether you agrere or not). And I don't know what you're talking about half the time, either. So be it. What can we do about that? I don't know. So, let's just agree to disagree.

Obviously no two Amil may agree on every single detail. But if the theology as a whole changes Scripture, should they not see the Scriptures they are changing? If Revelation 20 is to be symbolic, it should be symbolic as a whole, not just pick and choose random verses to make a point. That is what Premils are accused of. Sorry, but I see the chapter as a whole, even symbolically. If amil apply it to history they have to explain how inconsistent their application is.

 

[Timtofly]

Is the day 24 hours or 1000 years? I believe 24 hours. The events Paul described in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 and what Peter described in 2 Peter 3:3-13 happen within one 24 hour day, which is the day that Christ returns.

Can you list what happens in that 24 hours?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Obviously no two Amil may agree on every single detail. But if the theology as a whole changes Scripture, should they not see the Scriptures they are changing? If Revelation 20 is to be symbolic, it should be symbolic as a whole, not just pick and choose random verses to make a point. That is what Premils are accused of. Sorry, but I see the chapter as a whole, even symbolically. If amil apply it to history they have to explain how inconsistent their application is.

Let us establish an important fact, Revelation 20 does not directly say that Satan is “bound.” It is actually the “dragon” in this symbolic depiction which represents Satan that is “bound.” After all, Satan is not a literal “dragon.” The “dragon” is simply a symbol relating to Satan. The dragon being bound up in chains and imprisoned symbolizes Satan’s inability to deceive the Gentiles “nations” since the 1st Advent. So, it doesn’t say that Satan would be sealed in a “prison” in the illustration, but rather the “dragon” would be sealed in a “prison.”

Invisible spirits are not held in a physical prison with literal chains. We are looking at figurative language explaining the restraint Satan and his minions have been under since the First Advent. Amil believes that the kingdom of God is in conflict with Satan but that the chains upon him, the beast and the fallen angels are spiritual preventing them from thwarting the great commission to the nations (Gentiles). He cannot stop their enlightening. The chains restrict his previous global influence. He was basically unchallenged outside of Israel. The “binding” mentioned in Revelation 20 is speaking metaphorically of Satan's authority over the Gentile nations, which was dealt a decisive blow through the resurrection of Christ.

· Firstly, the binding of Satan is spiritual. Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints. What is more, he is not in a physical prison or is he restrained by metal chains.
· Secondly, the binding does not suggest our enemy must be motionless or does it describe inactivity. Prisoners have movement in a prison albeit in a limited capacity, under strict rules and within controlled confines.
· Thirdly, Revelation 20 does not suggest that the devil is unable to inflict harm on anyone while bound. Everyone knows that a prisoner can perpetrate all types of crimes within the prison precincts.

 

[iamlamad]

Where you err is making the wrath of God a 7-year trib. This is not a biblical truth but a Pretrib invention. The wrath of God that is poured out when Jesus comes is completely different to the tribulation that believers undergo from Satan and the beast prior to the coming of Christ. The fact you cannot furnish us with any scriptural support for the same exposes it as being extra-biblical.

No, you are mistaken: I did not do that, John and God did that: Wrath starting just before the week starts, then every trumpet judgment during the first half of teh week comes with His wrath, then He is still angry in chapter 11. Then the vials late in the second half of the week are filled with His wrath.
Checking...
Yes, wrath for the entire week. This is not pretrib or posttrib or any trib, it is the written word of God. What you write is myth, since it is NOT the written word of God.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So God does not deal with unbelievers and there is no FP and AC. Thanks for clearing that up. The Second Coming is total annihilation of the physical, with nothing left to accomplish on earth, would be your theology? All are transferred to the GWT and then into eternity. This happens at the 6th seal, and nothing after that happens. The Trumpets Thunders and vials happen instantaneously while Christ approaches through the heavens between the 5th and 6th seal. Because John seems to indicate that everything after the 6th seal is The Lamb dealing with unbelievers. But you wrap that all up into mere seconds before total annihilation of the physical. Obviously, one can hardly say anything in Revelation 8-20 has physically happened. It was just spiritual in the realm out of reach. Now that it is over spiritually, we will realize it physically seconds before total annihilation.

The 6th seal is the end of the world. You do not grasp the recaps. That is why your theology is messed up. Your teachers have taught you wrong.

Revelation 6:13-14 relates to the final destruction described in Isaiah 34 to the appearance of the Lord at the second coming, where the wicked finally receive their reward. The sixth seal says, “And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

This passage, which is speaking of the exact same scene as Rev 19, asks a simple question: "who shall be able to stand?” This of course is a rhetorical question: meaning the answer is obvious. Well, it is obvious to those who don't have a theological agenda to impute into the text. No one that is left behind will survive the wrath of God that He pours out on the ungodly on this fateful final day. So rather than rewarding all those that attack Jerusalem by allowing them to inherit the new earth, Christ destroys them and their rebellion.

So as to remove any confusion over the full extent of those that will be destroyed who are left behind, the Holy Spirit says: "the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man." Obviously if a human isn't "free" they are "a bondman" (or a slave).

This reading correlates with Revelation 19 and graphically describes the same apocalyptic scene. It shows what awaits those left behind at Christ's Coming. The book of Revelation is like that. It is a recapitulation of events approaching the second coming and things that attend it. Here, when the reality of their awful doomed state finally hits them, the wicked hide from the One that has come to destroy. Like Noah and Lot's day, their day of opportunity is gone. Without exceptions, all outside the ark (Christ) at the catching away will be destroyed, whether bond or free.

 

[iamlamad]

Again, no Scripture teaches a 7-year trib after the catching away. You have nothing to bring to the table. You are only articulating what you have been taught. This is an extra-biblical doctrine.

What you should be saying is, "I cannot find a 7 year anything after the catching away." (or something like that.) Pretribbers by the millions have found it. I will assist: read Dan. 9:27 with no preconceptions. It is the final week of years - a 7 year period of time.
It is further proven in revelation. Just because John did not specify a 1260 days period for the FIRST HALF of the week does not mean it does not exist. Just so you know, it will go from the 7th seal to the 7th trumpet, which will include the first 6 trumpet judgments. Then the second half will go from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial.

I understand, for those that don't believe in a 7 year period of time, it is harder to find.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No, you are mistaken: I did not do that, John and God did that: Wrath starting just before the week starts, then every trumpet judgment during the first half of teh week comes with His wrath, then He is still angry in chapter 11. Then the vials late in the second half of the week are filled with His wrath.
Checking...
Yes, wrath for the entire week. This is not pretrib or posttrib or any trib, it is the written word of God. What you write is myth, since it is NOT the written word of God.

Not so. That is wrong. Futurists fail to grasp the source of the great tribulation / wrath / vengeance outlined in Matthew 24:15-21, Mark 13:14-19 and Luke 21:20-24, it is from God not Satan. Also, the judgment is upon the wicked Christ-rejecting Jews, not the righteous.

Moreover, the double-barreled ‘tribulation great’ (as it outlines it in the original) also emanates from two distinct sources – Satan and God. The tribulation great originating from Satan is directed towards the Church intra-Advent and will terminate at the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ. The tribulation great (or wrath) from Christ is directed exclusively against the wicked. The “tribulation great” described in Matthew 24:15-21, Mark 13:14-19 and Luke 21:20-24 is (1) from God and (2) geographically relates to Jerusalem and (3) to the Christ-rejecting Jewish people living there, and, (4) to the vengeance of God in AD 70. The tribulation great in AD70 that was from God (and was wrath) was directed specifically against a rebellious religious city Jerusalem (also spiritually known as Sodom and Egypt) that should have known better. It was a persecution that saw the dispersion of the Jews as predicted in these parallel passages: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time (i.e. from creation to AD 70), no, nor ever shall be (speaking of a distinct time-period following this judgment, which manifestly involves various trials only of lesser impact, namely AD 70 till the second coming).”

The great tribulation (or tribulation great, as it says in the original) is the righteous wrath of God upon the disobedient Jews, after they crucified their Messiah. The intra-advent tribulation is the wicked wrath of Satan upon the righteous. It will terminate at the one final future Second coming.

The two tribs are significantly different. One is from God the other from the devil. The tribulation great originating from Satan is directed towards the Church intra-Advent and will terminate at the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ. The tribulation great (or wrath) from Christ is directed exclusively against the wicked. The “tribulation great” described in Matthew 24:15-21, Mark 13:14-19 and Luke 21:20-24 is (1) from God and (2) geographically relates to Jerusalem and (3) to the Christ-rejecting Jewish people living there, and, (4) to the vengeance of God in AD 70, as I have previously outlined. It was a persecution that saw the dispersion of the Jews as predicted in these parallel passages: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time (i.e. from creation to AD 70), no, nor ever shall be (speaking of a distinct time-period following this judgment, which manifestly involves various trials only of lesser impact, namely AD 70 till the second coming).”

The Futurists whole premise is faulty, and because it is, the rest of their theory falls apart. They attempt to take a historical event and move the entire prophecy that was fulfilled in AD 70 (Matthew 24:21) to the future Second coming. The great tribulation was completed centuries ago. You need to restudy ... [the tribulation great] and look for its historical evidence and fulfilment; and realize that it has nothing to do with the future expected Second coming of Christ.

Futurists that lightly dismiss this need to read the historic accounts of AD 70 especially Josephus and note how horrendous was the destruction and deep the persecution and lasting the consequences, and then you would not be a dismissive about the gravity of AD 70.

The “tribulation great” that was focused upon the Christ-rejecting Jew and the city of Jerusalem in AD 70 emanated from the wrath of God.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What you should be saying is, "I cannot find a 7 year anything after the catching away." (or something like that.) Pretribbers by the millions have found it. I will assist: read Dan. 9:27 with no preconceptions. It is the final week of years - a 7 year period of time.
It is further proven in revelation. Just because John did not specify a 1260 days period for the FIRST HALF of the week does not mean it does not exist. Just so you know, it will go from the 7th seal to the 7th trumpet, which will include the first 6 trumpet judgments. Then the second half will go from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial.

I understand, for those that don't believe in a 7 year period of time, it is harder to find.

No, they haven't. Pretrib must be taught. One would never find it with an open and objective mind. That is why Pretribbers duck around these basic questions:

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

 

[Timtofly]

That's the problem. By not caring to delve deeper into what that means exactly, premil ends up interpreting Rev 20 in such a way that contradicts many other passages of scripture.

You will have to point out such contradictions. Peter does not go into as much detail as John does about the Lord's Day. But as pointed out, destruction is at the end of the day. Why would God destroy the earth in the first 5 seconds of the day? Or the first 1000 seconds? Even symbolically? I do not see Peter at odds with John on the topic. Neither are Jesus or Paul for that matter. If John had not even mentioned something about a 1000 year period, we would have nothing to even talk about.

The only reason John mentioned it, is because it does tell us what happens to Satan at the battle of Armageddon. Obviously this Revelation just raised a bunch of questions, they turned into speculation. Then disappointment. Now great controversy.

Why would you think there are not more blessed points in the Bible that relate to what a Lord's Day is? These Days are all about God enjoying the creation that He set in motion. This life is not just about Satan and sin.

 

[BABerean2]

No He is in Jerusalem, not coming to earth. Not even symbolically in Revelation 20. That is the whole point. Satan is not waiting in Jerusalem. Jesus is waiting in Jerusalem while Satan comes from the ends of the earth. Satan is destroyed by fire from God. (Still sitting on the throne in view of the whole earth for the last 1000 years.) Where does it say the throne ever changes position since chapter 6?

Is there a correlation between Revelation 20 and earlier passages in the Book of Revelation?

Is Revelation chapter 20 another example of “Recapitulation”?



Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[iamlamad]

This is the way you interpret scripture? You just disregard straightforward passage like this in favor of other passages? If what you're saying was true then you should be able to explain why Jesus said one time is coming when all the dead will be raised rather than saying two (or more) times are coming when all of the dead will be raised. You need to be able to explain that instead of just dismissing the passage in favor of other passages.

I don't see how there is any basis for interpreting the beast of Rev 17 as being different than the beast of Rev 13.

I don't have time to go over the rest of your post right now. Maybe later.

Look: EVERY scripture must fit with every other scripture. When I find something explained in 9 chapters, versus something explained in 9 verses, I will always take the 9 chapters for doctrine. They all MUST fit together with no problems. I find it so difficult to get around the two resurrections in Revelation being separated by TIME, I think it is impossible. I think they MUST be separated by time, so therefore impossible to happen at the same time. How can one disregard a verse? It is there just as surely as Rev. 20 is there. The question is, what did Jesus mean? I know from other scriptures he does NOT mean all resurrections happen at the same time. It is the 9 verses against the 9 chapters sort of thing.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

How can this be understood any other way? Do you just disregard this straightforward passage? You must have some secret way of putting these two verses together so they do not disagree with each other. Please, share your secret!

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour [Greek Hora: time - season] is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

It makes a HUGE difference when we consider the English text is translation from the Greek. Both do not occur in one hour's time! So this CAN fit with Rev. 20. Here is now one commentary put it:

Gill's Commentary:
All will rise, but with a difference; the dead in Christ will rise first, in the morning of the resurrection, in the beginning of the thousand years, and therefore are here mentioned first; the rest the wicked, will not rise until the evening of that day, till the thousand years are ended, and therefore are spoken of last.

One thing is sure, both groups will rise, but not at the same time.

I don't see how there is any basis for interpreting the beast of Rev 17 as being different than the beast of Rev 13.
Its very simple:

8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition.

This does not and cannot fit a human being. No human can rise up out of any bottomless pit. But the devil can. No human, such as Antiochus, could live back then, then rise out of the bottomless pit and live again. But demonic spirits could possess someone back then, like Antiochus, and then possess someone in our future, such as the AC Beast of chapter 13.

Did you notice that the FP could only do miracles when he was in close proximity to the Beast? Why is that? My guess is, Satan will have possessed the man of sin, and is INSIDE Him, hidden from view. So the FP has to be close to the Beast to be close enough to Satan inside the beast to assist the FP in his false miracles.

 

[iamlamad]

It's not just about deception in general, which we amils have explained many times. Have you not seen any of those times where we've explained our understanding of the binding of Satan? I'm tired of repeating it, honestly.

Exactly. They have meaning but the meaning does not have to resemble the symbol. The dragon being cast into a pit is all symbolic. Of what? Satan being bound in a pit? No! Not anymore than the dragon having seven heads and ten horns means Satan has seven heads and ten horns. So, why do you read the description of Satan's binding that way?

Truthfully, since I know that Satan is alive and well and still deceives the nations, I don't think there is any possible way you could explain his binding as having been already accomplished. This is one big reason why I am not amil - it does does it fit how I read scripture. I understand someone can imagine Satan being bound now, but will that keep someone from believing in Buddha, to their damnation? Just the fact that there are millions of Buddhists on the way to hell is proof Satan is not bound in any way. Just the fact that there are billions that believe Muhammad was God's prophet is further proof. They are very deceived.

Once I was ministering to a Muslim. I shared a computer with him for a semester at the U of Idaho, so he kind of owed me. For most of one semester, after every class we would go to the library and get out a Quran and a bible. I showed him from his own book how he had to also believe the bible. Then I would show him a verse in the bible that would shake him deeply. Towards the end of the semester nothing had changed. One Saturday morning I was praying for Him and questioned God on what else I could do. He spoke to me - it sounded like an audible voice: He said, "first you have to cast out that Muslim devil, or he will never understand."

So I switched gears and went into "casting out devils" mode. (I had cast out many demons by that time: I knew exactly how to do it.) It took me from 8 AM to 12 noon. It was strange, for he was several miles away from me. The Lord allowed the Muslim devil to manifest himself in my body so I would know how to proceed. At noon, I felt the devil leave and I knew my friend was set free.

The next class day, Monday, he came running up to me, face aglow, and told that that Saturday he gave up being a Muslim!

As you can see, I know very well that the devil is not bound. I have cast out demons of fear, of doubt and just about every other kind, and have seen people change.

When Satan REALLY (for real) gets bound, after the future 70th week has finished, all who are spiritual will KNOW he has been bound.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Even symbolically? I do not see Peter at odds with John on the topic. Neither are Jesus or Paul for that matter. If John had not even mentioned something about a 1000 year period, we would have nothing to even talk about.

It is Premils that are at odds with Revelation 20. They deny Christ is the first resurrection and build their doctrine from there. They make us the first resurrection. It is an error.