Grapes in the Early Spring

[a-lily-of-peace]

Sugar has not destroyed families like alcohol has done. Drinking and driving is a big killer and the crimes committed while under the influence of alcohol are too numerous to mention. If you believe alcohol is no different than sugar you need to research more on the bad side of alcohol more. Right now you are just seeing what you want to see.

I already know the truth, that sugar and wine don’t destroy but that gluttony and drunkenness do.

Post edited for the sake of peace.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I already know the truth, that sugar and wine don’t destroy but that gluttony and drunkenness do, and I have so many other things to research that I respectfully decline your advice.

You can decline my advice all you like. It does not change the facts that alcohol is far more destructive than sugar. When was a family killed by a person eating too much sugar and then driving? Do cops have sugar breathalyzer tests? Many cases of sexual misconduct is linked to alcohol and not sugar.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

You can decline my advice all you like. It does not change the facts that alcohol is far more destructive than sugar. When was a family killed by a person eating too much sugar and then driving? Do cops have sugar breathalyzer tests? Many cases of sexual misconduct is linked to alcohol and not sugar.

I edited my post because I realised it sounded flippant and I do apologise for that.

I haven’t had wine in nearly half a year. Maybe four months, now that I’m trying to remember specifics for accuracy. For sugar, more like a half hour. I can say it would be exceedingly more difficult for me to abstain from refined sugar for four to six months even though I am aware of the negative effects on my body and mind.

My original point was more about condemning sugar and wine as inseparable from gluttony and drunkenness as something I genuinely don’t find good, and can lead to argumentation when that isn’t required.

May the Lord have mercy on us both.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No offense, but I believe you are reading the Bible with a bias towards drinking alcoholic beverages to get this kind of understanding from the Bible. How so? Well, John the Baptist was said by others to have a devil (Luke 7:33). But that does not by any means John exhibited any standard symptoms of being possessed to lead them to that conclusion. They simply lied completely and or made it up to slander John. This parallel of John the Baptist is used for Jesus eating and drinking. So again, they entirely lied in regards to Jesus. Nothing they said had any truth to it.

It is quite obvious from the texts, both Hebrew and Greek, so I would say you are reading your own bias into it...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I edited my post because I realised it sounded flippant and I do apologise for that.

I haven’t had wine in nearly half a year. Maybe four months, now that I’m trying to remember specifics for accuracy. For sugar, more like a half hour. Outside of any grand social justice crusading I can say it would be exceedingly more difficult for me to abstain from refined sugar for four to six months even though I am aware of the negative effects on my body and mind.

My original point was more about condemning sugar and wine as inseparable from gluttony and drunkenness as something I genuinely don’t find good, and can lead to argumentation when that isn’t required.

May the Lord have mercy on us both.

But you do realize alcohol is another level of destruction than say sugar consumption. I never heard any stories of anyone dying from having too much sugar, but I heard tons of times out of my life of someone dying or ruining their life because of alcohol.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is quite obvious from the texts, both Hebrew and Greek, so I would say you are reading your own bias into it...

I believe God perfectly preserved His Word in the English language (KJB). So based on reading the Bible in the English, I don’t get that impression. I don’t believe you or the recent scholar knows Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek with 100% certainty. I believe the scholar is only guessing as to what these languages say because they are dead languages.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

But you do realize alcohol is another level of destruction than say sugar consumption. I never heard any stories of anyone dying from having too much sugar, but I heard tons of times out of my life of someone dying or ruining their life because of alcohol.

Aside from the fact that diabetics can literally die from too much sugar I do believe obesity ruins lives, and especially giving children too much sugar in early life affects their brain, body, and personality development. Schools literally prohibit the sale of drinks with refined sugar to children.

I completely agree that too much alcohol is also dangerous and can lead to health problems, violence, physical danger, terrible decisions and spiritual corruption. The Apostles wrote that drunkenness is not fitting for the children of God and those who get drunk will not inherit the Kingdom.

However I do not believe that a sip of wine mixed with water is so unacceptable that it must be an absolute certainty that the wine referenced by Justin Martyr must have been unfermented. And honestly I don’t even see how anything other than living in the post-Prohibition era would lead anyone to that conclusion. Martin Luther owned a beer brewery and I’m not aware of that being used against him. It really seems like historically the “alcohol content” in something like wine, especially diluted wine, was less of an issue than whether you drank too much of it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Aside from the fact that diabetics can literally die from too much sugar I do believe obesity ruins lives, and especially giving children too much sugar in early life affects their brain, body, and personality development. Schools literally prohibit the sale of drinks with refined sugar to children.

I completely agree that too much alcohol is also dangerous and can lead to health problems, violence, physical danger, terrible decisions and spiritual corruption. The Apostles wrote that drunkenness is not fitting for the children of God and those who get drunk will not inherit the Kingdom.

However I do not believe that a sip of wine mixed with water is so unacceptable that it must be an absolute certainty that the wine referenced by Justin Martyr must have been unfermented. And honestly I don’t even see how anything other than living in the post-Prohibition era would lead anyone to that conclusion. Martin Luther owned a beer brewery and I’m not aware of that being used against him. It really seems like historically the “alcohol content” in something like wine, especially diluted wine, was less of an issue than whether you drank too much of it.

Sugar is a slow killer, but alcohol can kill you today or tomorrow because of a drunk driver or because a person took a broken bottle and stabbed a person in a bar fight. A person can overdose on alcohol and die. Then there are those who made bad decisions because of alcohol whereby they are locked up in prison. Alcohol can lead to unwanted pregnancies and other bad things that are not just related to death. Innocent families have been killed or ruined by alcohol. While sugar is really bad, sugar cannot make claims to such destruction that alcohol leaves in its wake.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Sugar is a slow killer, but alcohol can kill you today or tomorrow because of a drunk driver or because a person took a broken bottle and stabbed a person in a bar fight. A person can overdose on alcohol and die. Then there are those who made bad decisions because of alcohol whereby they are locked up in prison. Alcohol can lead to unwanted pregnancies and other bad things that are not just related to death. Innocent families have been killed or ruined by alcohol. Sugar cannot make claims to such destruction.

Honestly I’m not trying to crusade against sugar so I’ll leave it at this. Peace to you and may the Lord refine us both by his glorious grace.

 

[Der Alte]

It is only false because you want it to be false. There are many different methods of preserving grapes and grape juice in ancient times. You just don’t like that truth because you are biased towards alcohol.

Are you serious? Do you actually not see how what you posted is false?
You claimed that the "New Family Receipt Book" says the following,

"An early 1800s recipe book, called “receipts” back then, gives directions that would preserve grapes fresh for 12 months. These grapes could be pressed into a cup at any time of the year (New Family Receipt Book, London; 1820)."​

That is false. You keep claiming, "There are many different methods of preserving grapes and grape juice in ancient times." I have asked more than once for credible, verifiable, historical evidence. You have yet to provide such evidence. I posted the instructions from the book you referred to in my post #164 Grapes in the Early Spring , above. The article clearly does not say that grapes preserved in that manner can be pressed into a cup at any time. They must first be soaked in wine to restore them to freshness.

 

[Der Alte]

Sugar is a slow killer, but alcohol can kill you today or tomorrow because of a drunk driver or because a person took a broken bottle and stabbed a person in a bar fight. A person can overdose on alcohol and die. Then there are those who made bad decisions because of alcohol whereby they are locked up in prison. Alcohol can lead to unwanted pregnancies and other bad things that are not just related to death. Innocent families have been killed or ruined by alcohol. While sugar is really bad, sugar cannot make claims to such destruction that alcohol leaves in its wake.

Irrelevant! There are many people who drink but do not abuse alcohol and none of the things you listed happen to them. 62% of all accidents do not involve alcohol. Many people speed or drive recklessly without having consumed alcohol and have caused wrecks and injured and killed people. We do not ban automobiles because of that.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I believe God perfectly preserved His Word in the English language (KJB). So based on reading the Bible in the English, I don’t get that impression. I don’t believe you or the recent scholar knows Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek with 100% certainty. I believe the scholar is only guessing as to what these languages say because they are dead languages.

Believe what you want then. The meaning of wine in Hebrew, Koine Greek and English is not rocket science...

 

[HARK!]

Acts 2:
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What means this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

New wines simply haven't been aged as long.

(CLV) Lk 5:39
And not one, drinking the old, immediately is wanting the fresh, for he is saying, `The old is mellower.'"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus said you know a tree by its fruit. Alcohol has more bad fruit than good fruit.

 

[HARK!]

Jesus said you know a tree by its fruit. Alcohol has more bad fruit than good fruit.

I thought that we had this settled in Post #58.

 

[Mr. M]

(CLV) Lk 5:39
And not one, drinking the old, immediately is wanting the fresh, for he is saying, `The old is mellower.'"

So, He was just hangin' with the Pharisees, talking wine here?
You may have missed a lesson.

 

[HARK!]

Fermented wine in the Greek and NT eras was regularly diluted with water1.

The Talmud (200 B.C. — A.D. 200) records the Jewish practice of regularly reducing the effects of wine by a 3/1 or 2/1 ratio of water to wine. In the rabbinic period “Yayin is to be distinguished from Shekar [strong drink]: the former is diluted with water; the latter is undiluted.”2 The Jewish Mishnah said, “They do not say the Benediction over the wine until water has been added to it.”3 The normal mixture for the Jews was three parts water to one part wine.4 In the Passover ritual during NT times the four cups every Jew was to drink during the ceremony had to be mixed three parts water to one part wine.5 This practice is reflected as common during the inter-testament period in 2 Maccabees 15:39: “It is harmful to drink wine alone, or again to drink water alone [bacteria issues], while wine mixed with water is sweet and delicious and enhances one’s enjoyment.”6

This dilution process reduced the alcoholic content of the wine down to approximately 2.25–2.75%. In contrast to the ancient world, the modern world does not dilute the effects of alcohol. Beer is 3.5% to 4.5% and typically served in 12-16 ounce containers; table wines are as much as 14%; fortified wines are 18-24%; hard liquor is 40% (80 proof).

A diluted wine would reduce the risks of drunkenness from that of an undiluted wine. Peter argued that the Christians at Pentecost were not drunk since it was only the third hour (9:00 AM). Normally, one had to linger with the wine or be “beside wine” (1 Timothy 3:3) in order to be intoxicated.

The Greeks practiced dilution and the practice eventually spread throughout the Roman world including Palestine. Pliny’s work entitled “Natural History” mentions an 8 to 1 ratio of water to wine. Other Classical Greek writers mention similar ratios: Hesiod–3 to 1, Alexis–4 to 1, Diocles — 2 to 1. Mnesitheus of Athens said: “The gods have revealed wine to mortals, to be the greatest blessing for those who use it aright, but for those who use it without measure, the reverse. For it gives food to them that take it and strength in mind and body. In medicine it is most beneficial … In daily intercourse, to those who mix and drink it moderately, it gives good cheer; but if you overstep the bounds, it brings violence. Mix it half and half and you get madness; unmixed, bodily collapse” (Stein, “Wine Drinking,” p. 9).

According to Stein, dilution was practiced in the early centuries of the church. Justin Martyr (150 A.D.) described the Lord’s Supper as “Bread is brought, wine and water, and the elder sends up prayers and thanksgiving” (Apology, I, 67, 5). Cyprian (250 A.D.) said, “Thus, therefore, in considering the cup of the Lord, water alone cannot be offered, even as wine alone cannot be offered. For if anyone offers wine only, the blood of Christ is dissociated from us; but if the water be alone, the people are dissociated from Christ. …. Thus the cup of the Lord is not indeed water alone nor wine alone, unless each be mingled with the other”

Is diluted wine, wine, or not?

Spoiler

Remove the adjective from the riddle above for a clue.

 

[HARK!]

So, He was just hangin' with the Pharisees, talking wine here?
You may have missed a lesson.

He was presenting an axiom.

 

[Mr. M]

He was presenting an axiom.

Luke 5:36. Then He spoke a parable to them:
Presenting a spiritual lesson.
Luke 5:
37 And no man puts new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles,
and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

You must be born again from above to receive the effervescent, new wine of The Holy Spirit.

Luke 5:39. And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for they say, ‘The old is better.’”
Does this not suggest that the Pharisees He is addressing are stuck in their 'old ways', and
refusing to embrace the message of new life He brings?
The Passion Translation 'interprets' it that way.
Yet you say, ‘The old ways are better,’ and you refuse to even taste the new that I bring.”

 

[HARK!]

Luke 5:36. Then He spoke a parable to them:
Presenting a spiritual lesson.

Yes, he spoke a parable built on axioms.

How would one understand the parable; if he couldn't understand the self evident truth?