Grapes in the Early Spring

[HARK!]

Try researching history of ancient ways of storing grape juice.

Do you have any solid evidence, from a scientific source, to present for us?

See: Burden of Proof

 

[HARK!]

Doesn't the fermentation of grapes.produce yeast though?

No. Yeast produce yeast. Yeast is in the air all around us. It nearly unavoidably settles in the grape juice; and it consumes the sugars; and so the yeast propagate more yeast in the juice. As the yeast consume the sugar; they excrete alcohol as waste. When the sugar is consumed, and the alcohol reaches toxic levels for the yeast; the process stops.

so.would not have been fermented for passover

Why not?

 

[Junia]

No. Yeast produce yeast. Yeast is in the air all around us. It nearly unavoidably settles in the grape juice; and it consumes the sugars; and so the yeast propagate more yeast in the juice. As the yeast consume the sugar; they excrete alcohol as waste. When the sugar is consumed, and the alcohol reaches toxic levels for the yeast; the process stops.



Why not?

will

because yeast is not consumed in any form over Passover

 

[HARK!]

Absolutely! I never say anything I can't back up. I studied Greek and Hebrew at the graduate level more than 3 decades ago. Here is the definition from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Hebrew Lexicon.

μεθύω (μέθυ ‘wine’; Hom. et al.; PHal 1, 193f; PGM 7, 180 πολλὰ πίνειν καὶ μὴ μεθύειν, al. in pap; LXX, Test12Patr; Philo; Jos., Bell. 6, 196, Vi. 225; 388; Just., D. 14, 6) to drink to a point of intoxication, be drunk Ac 2:15; Ox 1 verso, 15 (ASyn. 240, 40; cp. GTh 28; Unknown Sayings 69–74). Opp. πεινᾶν 1 Cor 11:21. οἱ μεθυσκόμενοι νυκτὸς μεθύουσιν those who get drunk are drunk at night 1 Th 5:7. οἱ μεθύοντες those who are drunken (Diod S 4, 5, 3; Cornutus 30 p. 61, 6; Job 12:25) Mt 24:49.—In imagery (X., Symp. 8, 21; Pla., Lysias 222c; Philostrat., Vi. Soph. 2, 1, 2 πλούτῳ μ.; Achilles Tat. 1, 6, 1 ἔρωτι; OdeSol 11:6 ὕδωρ τὸ ἀθάνατον; Philo) of the apocal. woman who has sated her thirst for blood (sim. in hue to wine) εἶδον τὴν γυναῖκα μεθύουσαν ἐκ τ. αἵματος τ. ἁγίων Rv 17:6.—DELG s.v. μέθυ. M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 626). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

The Jewish practice then and now was to serve wine at weddings. Jesus only provided the wine He did not encourage anyone to drink to excess.

I saw your response the first time. Hebrew Lexicon? With your background, I'm a little disappointed that you didn't present a secular linguistic source, which would be less likely to insert doctrinal bias into their study of Ancient Greek.

 

[HARK!]

will

because yeast is not consumed in any form over Passover

The last supper wasn't Passover. Yahshua was in the grave on Passover.

 

[fhansen]

Doesn't the fermentation of grapes.produce yeast though?.so.would not have been fermented for passover

Yeast actually produces fermentation. And like another poster said above that can happen spontaneously with grape juice and other sugar containing foods on its own because yeast exists everywhere even though wineries generally add the culture that they prefer. I grow wine grapes and have had it happen with juice left in a coffee can lol.. if it doesn't turn to vinegar instead

 

[Der Alte]

Try researching history of ancient ways of storing grape juice. My guess is that such a study does not appeal to you because it runs contrary to what you want to be true.

You brought up the objection the burden of proof is on you to support it. Do you have anything like credible, verifiable, historical evidence. By that I do not mean a copy paste from some anonymous website.
Some years ago my wife bought a bottle of grape juice where it remained for a couple of months. I spotted it one day and decided to drink some. When I opened the bottle there was a little "poong." That was some good grape juice. Nothing added to it but it fermented into wine.

 

[HARK!]

Some years ago my wife bought a bottle of grape juice where it remained for a couple of months. I spotted it one day and decided to drink some. When I opened the bottle there was a little "poong." That was some good grape juice. Nothing added to it but it fermented into wine.

Probably Pasteurized too, a rather new development.

 

[Der Alte]

And you don’t Greek. Nobody today knows a dead language with 100% certainty unless they have a time machine. I just believe my Bible in the English (the KJB).
Note: I believe God divinely intervened to preserve His Word with the creation of the KJB.

Nonsense! Greek has been the language of Greece for over two thousand years. It has never been a dead language. Same with Hebrew.
That is what a lot of false teachers teach their flocks trying to make them believe that the teacher is the ultimate authority.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Can you explain where Yahshua's disciples came up with unfermented wine in the Spring? There is no mention of a miracle here.

The beverage of the Lord’s supper is called the “fruit of the vine” in three gospels. Think about what that means. If I let juice fully ferment into alcohol it is no longer the fruit of the vine but it is alcohol.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nonsense! Greek has been the language of Greece for over two thousand years. It has never been a dead language. Same with Hebrew.
That is what a lot of false teachers teach their flocks trying to make them believe that the teacher is the ultimate authority.

Biblical Greek is different than Modern Greek. The same is true for Hebrew.

 

[Der Alte]

Probably Pasteurized too, a rather new development.

Do you have a point? Are you questioning my post?

 

[Der Alte]

Biblical Greek is different than Modern Greek. The same is true for Hebrew.

You make a lot of claims but provide no evidence. Even if true it is irrelevant.

 

[HARK!]

And you don’t Greek. Nobody today knows a dead language with 100% certainty unless they have a time machine. I just believe my Bible in the English (the KJB).

Yes, archaic Greek is a dead language; but we have enough writings preserved from that time; that linguists can interpret the writings. They don't need a time machine.

Note: I believe God divinely intervened to preserve His Word with the creation of the KJB.

If Elohim had intervened to preserve his word in the KJV; why doesn't the KJV conform to the Critical Text? Do you realize that the KJV was written in archaic English? If archaic Greek is a dead language; why isn't archaic English? Do you have a time machine?

 

[HARK!]

Do you have a point? Are you questioning my post?

The point is that with the processes that we have today; grape juice can last longer without fermenting. People in Yahshua's time didn't have the understanding, nor the technology, that we have today.

 

[HARK!]

The beverage of the Lord’s supper is called the “fruit of the vine” in three gospels. Think about what that means. If I let juice fully ferment into alcohol it is no longer the fruit of the vine but it is alcohol.

Wine is no less fruit of the vine than grape juice or jelly. As soon as you crush a grape, enzymes quickly begin to change chemical structure. If you cook a fish; you've changed it's chemical structure; but it's still a fish.

The Nazarite Vow requires abstaining from all fruit of the vine, including wine.

 

[Mr. M]

Should we bother considering the health benefits of drinking a glass of red wine?
Port Wine Health Benefits (September 2020) - Health is King

The truth about red wine and heart health

 

[HARK!]

Should we bother considering the health benefits of drinking a glass of red wine?
Port Wine Health Benefits (September 2020) - Health is King

The truth about red wine and heart health

We probably should. I was anticipating bringing this up; but I was waiting for just the right time. I was waiting for an "alcohol is toxic" claim. Everything can have harmful a effect on the human body, if introduced in excess, even water, even oxygen.

 

[Charlie24]

In my opinion, the issue with alcohol is not whether Jesus made or drank alcohol.

The issue is the one Paul laid out for us that we should not be a stumbling block to our neighbor.

If I'm sitting on the porch with a glass of wine and someone I have had led to Lord, or a new convert from church comes over, what can I say, what can do?

He is not schooled in the scripture, he does not understand why I have taken such liberties. All the explaining I could muster will not stop him from seeing me as a hypocrite.

I have laid a stumbling block for this person to give up on Christ.

This is why I'm against alcohol.

 

[HARK!]

In my opinion, the issue with alcohol is not whether Jesus made or drank alcohol.

The issue is the one Paul laid out for us that we should not be a stumbling block to our neighbor.

If I'm sitting on the porch with a glass of wine and someone I have had led to Lord, or a new convert from church comes over, what can I say, what can do?

He is not schooled in the scripture, he does not understand why I have taken such liberties. All the explaining I could muster will not stop him from seeing me as a hypocrite.

I have laid a stumbling block for this person to give up on Christ.

This is why I'm against alcohol.

My Pastor was asked to perform a wedding for a couple of whom neither had ever attended our church. He agreed to marry them. He knew that I had time on my hands; so he asked me if I would come down to the church, and help out on that day. I did. Beside my Pastor, I was the only other member of our church who was there. After the ceremony, my Pastor was invited to the reception. He asked if I could come along. They agreed; so my Pastor drove us over there. At the reception the servers started passing out very small glasses of champagne. The server offered a glass to my Pastor first. He declined. I knew that my Pastor drank wine; and he knew that I drank wine. The server asked me next. I declined. The server was still there; when my Pastor quickly interjected, "if you want some champagne; have some champagne." I declined again; and the server left. Then I told my Pastor, "I'm your guest. I didn't feel comfortable having any, if you weren't; but is seems rude to turn away champagne at a wedding." He said again that if I wanted some; that I should have had some. He said that anyone else can have a glass of wine; and they simply had a glass of wine; but if a Pastor has a glass of wine; people start talking; and all of a sudden the Pastor is a drunk. I told him that since I was there representing the church; that it was probably best that I didn't have any either.