LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

[He is the way]

That distinction was never made. Certainly not in the church approved paintings teachers would get from the church library.

Is that Martin Harris?

Hmmm, no... Not quite.

Oh wait! Here's the other guy Joseph translated with!

Seems more like the artist was confused as well. Yet the church was like, "Sure. Go ahead and put that in the teaching materials."

There were no pictures or videos of stone in hat when I was in church. Not in the classes I was in.

I don't believe it was a deliberate lie. There are other obvious problems with that painting. Martin Harris was not allowed to see the golden plates until June of 1829. There was a cloth between him and the plates. Nor is the Urim and Thummin pictured there. It is only an artist's conception.

 

[Peter1000]

That distinction was never made. Certainly not in the church approved paintings teachers would get from the church library.

Is that Martin Harris?

Hmmm, no... Not quite.

Oh wait! Here's the other guy Joseph translated with!

Seems more like the artist was confused as well. Yet the church was like, "Sure. Go ahead and put that in the teaching materials."

There were no pictures or videos of stone in hat when I was in church. Not in the classes I was in.

Again, turn the right way when confused by serious questions.

 

[BigDaddy4]

BigDaddy4 was unwilling to give me all of the information I asked for

Hey pot... here's the kettle! How many non-answered and unanswered questions to me and other posters have you given?

and I doubt his church would be willing to give me specific information about their clergy and who gets paid and how much.

Why would I publicize where I go to church and what our pastors make on an internet forum? Do you know that there are sites like GlassDoor, Salary.com, and Indeed that would give you the salary range of a pastor (senior and/or associate) in a particular area?

 

[Hrairoo]

So turn the right direction for your answers.

I did. It was the first place I looked to answer my questions. I prayed to my Heavenly Father for guidance and I searched topics on churchofjesuschrist.org. I found information, stuff that contradicted what I'd always been taught, and vague defenses. So, I went to FAIR Mormon and spent hours of days looking for answers. I found more details and more contradictions. I reread the Book of Mormon. The 1830 version with all the errors and then I knew. You should give it a whirl, sometime. It's not just grammatical edits like the church claims.

 

[dzheremi]

Relying on LDS Charities as the only only source of how tithes and offerings are used, was the problem then.

Then give us all a better source. That's the entire problem with the way that your religion functions: You're not open about this stuff at all, and yet you still see fit to criticize people who are looking for information and going based on what they can find as though they should know all this other stuff because you supposedly do, even though you apparently refuse to share with us where you find that information, or the substance of what is found there. It's the same as the LDS attitude towards you ultra-exclusive and super-special 'temples', and probably other stuff that is too inside baseball for us poor non-Mormon peons to know.

Since neither of us knows the exact amounts there is evidence that the LDS church conservatively collects around 3 billion dollars a year in the United States.

Source?

3 billion dollars divided by 6,721,032 = $446.36 per person

How much of that $3 billion would you be left with if you take out the "main revenue streams" (to quote the Reuters article linked earlier) like the Romneys and the other Mormon elites/super-wealthy? You don't think that having a few million-dollar donors spread among such a small population might artificially inflate that number?

 

[He is the way]

Hey pot... here's the kettle! How many non-answered and unanswered questions to me and other posters have you given?

Why would I publicize where I go to church and what our pastors make on an internet forum? Do you know that there are sites like GlassDoor, Salary.com, and Indeed that would give you the salary range of a pastor (senior and/or associate) in a particular area?

No I was not aware of that, thank you.

 

[mmksparbud]

Did it occur to you that I am telling you what I know and that I don't have all of the answers?

Yes, it did. What gets me is, you won't come out and say so, but have to come up with all sorts of other stuff! I don't know is acceptable when you really do not know!

 

[mmksparbud]

The prophets are not perfect men nor are they infallible. Even though the church is perfect in its organization, the people in the church are not perfect. There are going to be mistakes and hickups now and then as people do the Lords work.

When I learned what I thought were facts about my religion that punched me in the face, I did not turn to those people for answers. I turned to our people, our prophets, our researchers, our authors. And I turned to God.

There have been many times that I was suddenly facing a critical moment in my belief system. But I usually turned to Fairmormon or a man that I knew had studied these things out long before me. I always found out that the facts are not always the facts and that the facts can be manipulated to come to the wrong conclusion.

I always turned to the church for answers rather than to the anti. I always became more prayerful and the answers I was looking for always came to me and I was satisfied. Never 100%, because there is a small % that needs to be there because in many of these issues, there is not enough evidence pro or con to satisfy 100%. We live on faith, and faith is not knowing 100%. However, when the Holy Spirit is with you, you can be satisfied and go on being active in the church.

So turn the right direction for your answers.

No, prophets are only human---however, God is not and He is infallible. When someone says they were told by God something---it better be God that said it and it has to be infallible and has to come to pass, unless preceded by an "IF".

 

[He is the way]

Then give us all a better source. That's the entire problem with the way that your religion functions: You're not open about this stuff at all, and yet you still see fit to criticize people who are looking for information and going based on what they can find as though they should know all this other stuff because you supposedly do, even though you apparently refuse to share with us where you find that information, or the substance of what is found there. It's the same as the LDS attitude towards you ultra-exclusive and super-special 'temples', and probably other stuff that is too inside baseball for us poor non-Mormon peons to know.



Source?



How much of that $3 billion would you be left with if you take out the "main revenue streams" (to quote the Reuters article linked earlier) like the Romneys and the other Mormon elites/super-wealthy? You don't think that having a few million-dollar donors spread among such a small population might artificially inflate that number?

Other religions are not that open either.

"The church typically collects about $7 billion each year in contributions from members, according to the complaint. Mormons, like members of some other faith groups, are asked to contribute 10 percent of their income to the church, a practice known as tithing."

From: https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...619bd2-2004-11ea-86f3-3b5019d451db_story.html

How much of the 44 billion would be left it someone took out all of the rich Christians?

 

[dzheremi]

Other religions are not that open either.

What a shame for you that this thread is not about other religions, then.

"The church typically collects about $7 billion each year in contributions from members, according to the complaint. Mormons, like members of some other faith groups, are asked to contribute 10 percent of their income to the church, a practice known as tithing."

From: https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...619bd2-2004-11ea-86f3-3b5019d451db_story.html

I'm sorry; I asked for a source for your $3 billion USA-only number. This story only repeats the same $7 billion dollar number that we both know, but specifies that it is for the entire religion, not just the USA (15 million people):

Nielsen’s complaint comes as many Mormons across the United States are engaged in discussions with their bishops, traditionally held in December, to “settle” their dues to the church. His estimate of $7 billion in annual revenue points to a relatively high rate of contributions from the 15 million members.​

So I'm going to have to ask you again: What is your source for $3 billion in tithes from US members only?

That's what you claimed, and I'm going to assume that this claim was actually based on something in the real world. Come out with it, please.

How much of the 44 billion would be left it someone took out all of the rich Christians?

It depends at what rate they were to give. A lot of churches don't believe in tithing to begin with, so at least some of what is found in that $44 billion figure is probably larger individual donations. But, for instance, if we take the numbers for Catholics in the USA from the WP article you yourself linked to, we have $8 billion received by the RCC in America in 2005, at a time when there were apparently 75 million Catholics in the USA. That gives them a per capita giving amount of $106.66, which if you break it down to weekly giving is about $2.05 per person -- surely because some give more than that and subsidize those who do not give (because they're babies, or too poor, or just don't want to, or whatever). I'm suggesting nothing more than this when I ask about the contributions of wealthy Mormons artificially inflating the total of Mormon giving, as the same would be true of literally any kind of religious group. There's always going to be some who give more and some who give less, and some who don't give at all. (At least not monetarily; there are certainly other ways to give, such as through volunteering.)

 

[He is the way]

What a shame for you that this thread is not about other religions, then.



I'm sorry; I asked for a source for your $3 billion USA-only number. This story only repeats the same $7 billion dollar number that we both know, but specifies that it is for the entire religion, not just the USA (15 million people):

Nielsen’s complaint comes as many Mormons across the United States are engaged in discussions with their bishops, traditionally held in December, to “settle” their dues to the church. His estimate of $7 billion in annual revenue points to a relatively high rate of contributions from the 15 million members.​

So I'm going to have to ask you again: What is your source for $3 billion in tithes from US members only?

That's what you claimed, and I'm going to assume that this claim was actually based on something in the real world. Come out with it, please.



It depends at what rate they were to give. A lot of churches don't believe in tithing to begin with, so at least some of what is found in that $44 billion figure is probably larger individual donations. But, for instance, if we take the numbers for Catholics in the USA from the WP article you yourself linked to, we have $8 billion received by the RCC in America in 2005, at a time when there were apparently 75 million Catholics in the USA. That gives them a per capita giving amount of $106.66, which if you break it down to weekly giving is about $2.05 per person -- surely because some give more than that and subsidize those who do not give (because they're babies, or too poor, or just don't want to, or whatever). I'm suggesting nothing more than this when I ask about the contributions of wealthy Mormons artificially inflating the total of Mormon giving, as the same would be true of literally any kind of religious group. There's always going to be some who give more and some who give less, and some who don't give at all. (At least not monetarily; there are certainly other ways to give, such as through volunteering.)

Most of the 7 billion likely comes from the United States, however lets figure it this way:

7 billion divided by 16,565,036 total membership = $422.57

That would be the average for each member (man woman and child) worldwide. as for volunteers, Utah ranks #1:

From: State Rankings by Volunteer Rate

 

[Leaf473]

Actually it is not the bishop that a person should worry about but it is God. It reminds me of the story in
(New Testament | Acts 5:1-12) of Ananias and his wife Sapphira. In this case Peter was the examiner.

good point!
of course, the examination is not about participating in an ordinance or a sacrament, which is what Paul is talking about.

since God is the one we interact with, there is no need for careful record keeping done by other people.

I think a better answer if a situation arises where a person is questioned about giving,
"I don't know for sure. I gave what I felt led to give."

 

[Leaf473]

A person could put money in an envelope and mail it to the bishop. I have not been a bishop so I could not tell you how this money is processed. I do know that not all of the donations are from members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

this quote from the official LDS website sounds like money must be given directly to the bishop with a completed form.

is it stated somewhere that placing it in the care of the USPS is the equivalent of giving it to the bishop?

it doesn't sound to me like the completed form is optional.
does it say somewhere in the handbook that these kinds of things are only suggestions? that the important thing is to follow the leading of the spirit?

"Members give their tithing and a completed Tithing and Other Offerings form to the bishop or one of his counselors."

34. Finances and Audits

on my device the site was very slow to load, so I accessed the quote using the following link:
Members give their tithing and a completed Tithing and Other Offerings form to the bishop or one of his counselors. at DuckDuckGo

 

[Leaf473]

I was a finance clerk for a year or so.



Here in the United States, the church requires both online *and* physical records to be kept.

How it works is that a member of the bishopric and a second authorized person - usually the finance clerk - open each envelope individually. They note in the computer system who gave the donation, what they're donating to, and then manually inspect the enclosed amount to ensure that it matches up. For example, if a person said they put $50 in cash, there's a count to ensure that there's actually $50 in cash.

This is done for every single envelope received that day.

Once the total count is done, a final manual count is done to ensure that the amount of cash received matches what the system says it should be, and that all of the checks / money orders / et cetra sync up as well.

Once this is all done and everything is entered into the computer with appropriate digital signatures, a digital notice is sent back to Salt Lake. The computer then spits out an assortment of documents, some of which need physical signatures. Specific documents, the white tithing slips, and certain other documentation are then placed in an envelope and placed inside a designated filing cabinet. These documents are audited every six months, and IIRC anything & everything may be audited as far out as two years from date.

On the physical end, the money and payments are placed in a bank deposit envelope along with copies of certain record documents, both ones printed by the system and created by an NCR paper ledger. The two people who prepared everything must then take the sealed envelope to the designated drop point, which 9 times out of 10 will be the night drop box at a specific local bank that the church has set up an account with. For purposes of operational security, I won't explain the rare instance on open comms.



There isn't a cash donation box. There's supposed to be a record kept of everything.

Story time -> When I was the finance clerk, news broke that the State of California Democratic Party had been robbed blind by their top finance official. The party's internal financial security standards were so weak that she was able to pilfer millions of dollars from them, and the only reason they caught it was because checks started bouncing. The audit standards I had to abide by as a branch finance clerk were stricter than an entire state-level political party was operating under.



If a person has specific circumstances, circumstances to which I was not personally privy, then they can be designated as "exempt". I wouldn't know who was or wasn't until at the end of each year when I was tasked with officially registering in the system who declared themselves to be a full or partial tithe-payer.

it sounds like anonymous tithing cannot be done, then.

so just to be sure I understand what you're saying, to the best of your knowledge, is it allowable to place your tithe in the form of cash in an envelope and mail it to the bishop without including anything in the envelope or on the outside of the envelope indicating who it came from?

 

[Leaf473]

JS receive his translation from the Lord, which was done by revelation. Don't be confused with the 2 words.

what is the LDS position?
did Joseph miraculously translate languages he didn't know?
some different kind of Revelation?
or something else?

It seems you are picking at straws and trying hard to make a case for JS or the church being disingenuous. Keep trying hard, I am positive if you doubt the prophets and the leaders of the church and the researchers, and authors of the church, you will be able to find those that would tell you things that you seem so desparate to hear about the church being disingenuous.

I understand that it sounds to you that I am trying hard and being desperate.

if I perceive someone is giving vague or evasive answers, I will definitely press harder.

I know it can be uncomfortable to see something a person holds dear to their heart held up to bright lights.
sometimes the candle light was much more comfortable.

you are welcome to ask me details about my spiritual life or the church I attend.
I will try to give a full and complete answer.

 

[Leaf473]

My evidence that the Book of Abraham is inspired is the Book of Mormon itself. Witnesses have stated that Joseph Smith used a seer stone in a hat to dictate most or all of the Book of Mormon to his scribes. He had no written material with him yet he was able to dictate large passages from the Bible while keeping everything coherent and in order. He started the next day exactly where he left off working on and completing the entire text in 65 working days. All this was done in the Kings English when he was around 23 years old. To me this is indeed a marvelous work and a wonder as stated by Isaiah:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 29:11 - 14)

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

as I believe I talked about earlier on this thread,
I think Joseph was a literary genius.

in much the same way that Mozart was a musical genius who could do amazing, stupendous things on a keyboard even as a very young boy,
so Joseph was able to do amazing literary things.

I've heard that Homer could recite the entire Iliad from memory.
even if true, imo, it doesn't indicate inspiration from God.

As for my great great grandfather. He knew Joseph Smith well and spent quite a bit of time with him. On one occasion an incident took place in the mansion house which he wrote about in his diary. A young girl of 16 wrote about that same incident in her book about her near death experience. She stated that she saw the entire life of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith during her NDE. The two accounts written by my great great grandfather and her book match each other and I know of no other place where they are written down.

what is the mansion house?

are the book and the diary you refer to available on the internet so that we can read them for ourselves?

 

[Leaf473]

The prophets are not perfect men nor are they infallible. Even though the church is perfect in its organization, the people in the church are not perfect. There are going to be mistakes and hickups now and then as people do the Lords work.

When I learned what I thought were facts about my religion that punched me in the face, I did not turn to those people for answers. I turned to our people, our prophets, our researchers, our authors. And I turned to God.

There have been many times that I was suddenly facing a critical moment in my belief system. But I usually turned to Fairmormon or a man that I knew had studied these things out long before me. I always found out that the facts are not always the facts and that the facts can be manipulated to come to the wrong conclusion.

I always turned to the church for answers rather than to the anti. I always became more prayerful and the answers I was looking for always came to me and I was satisfied. Never 100%, because there is a small % that needs to be there because in many of these issues, there is not enough evidence pro or con to satisfy 100%. We live on faith, and faith is not knowing 100%. However, when the Holy Spirit is with you, you can be satisfied and go on being active in the church.

So turn the right direction for your answers.

I did. It was the first place I looked to answer my questions. I prayed to my Heavenly Father for guidance and I searched topics on churchofjesuschrist.org. I found information, stuff that contradicted what I'd always been taught, and vague defenses. So, I went to FAIR Mormon and spent hours of days looking for answers. I found more details and more contradictions. I reread the Book of Mormon. The 1830 version with all the errors and then I knew. You should give it a whirl, sometime. It's not just grammatical edits like the church claims.

I have tried to read the book of Mormon.
I have managed to make it through only parts.
it's just too repetitive, much like the last eight chapters of Ezekiel, where he measures the temple.

I have to agree with Twain's assessment here
(warning, Twain is not polite in his critique.)
Mark Twain on the book of mormon - 1861

I try to be fair when assessing Joseph and LDS things.
I have visited Fair Mormon and many different pro Mormon YouTube channels.
I thought Daniel Peterson was very interesting, he seems to think the same way I do.

but there are times when you want to have a conversation, an exchange.

this thread seemed to be a good place to do that
(though, if we drift too far from the book of Abraham and someone wants to start a more general thread, that's fine with me too).

 

[Peter1000]

I did. It was the first place I looked to answer my questions. I prayed to my Heavenly Father for guidance and I searched topics on churchofjesuschrist.org. I found information, stuff that contradicted what I'd always been taught, and vague defenses. So, I went to FAIR Mormon and spent hours of days looking for answers. I found more details and more contradictions. I reread the Book of Mormon. The 1830 version with all the errors and then I knew. You should give it a whirl, sometime. It's not just grammatical edits like the church claims.

And then you knew what? That there were grammatical errors and that JS had changed a few verses of the text to make it more clear. And from that, you knew what?

Look at this Book of Mormon Central series of articles on the BOA. It is very good.
Watch: Evidence for the Book of Abraham Facsimiles from Egyptology

Like I say now, stay on your course, talk with people who you can trust about your experience. Who told you to read the 1830 version? Were you being advised by an anti that put into your head that the 1830 version will prove to you that the whole BOM has been changed and altered from the original. It is not true. Stop listening to anti. Continue to listen to those who support the restored gospel.

 

[Leaf473]

And then you knew what? That there were grammatical errors and that JS had changed a few verses of the text to make it more clear. And from that, you knew what?

Look at this Book of Mormon Central series of articles on the BOA. It is very good.
Watch: Evidence for the Book of Abraham Facsimiles from Egyptology

Like I say now, stay on your course, talk with people who you can trust about your experience. Who told you to read the 1830 version? Were you being advised by an anti that put into your head that the 1830 version will prove to you that the whole BOM has been changed and altered from the original. It is not true. Stop listening to anti. Continue to listen to those who support the restored gospel.

I plan to watch the video you refer to as well.

sitting down for family lunch right now, but hopefully this evening or tomorrow.

 

[dzheremi]

Most of the 7 billion likely comes from the United States

I don't doubt it, seeing as how it is a very American religion (headquartered in Utah, its founding events in NY, some of its early ideas about the Garden of Eden being in Missouri, etc.), and hence has its base in a wealthy, first world country where people can afford to give higher dollar amounts; I'd just like more to go on than "it's probably this way".

however lets figure it this way:

7 billion divided by 16,565,036 total membership = $422.57

That would be the average for each member (man woman and child) worldwide.

Sure, but again this number is likely to be artificially inflated for all the reasons we've already talked about. If one Mitt Romney takes the place of however many hundreds (thousands?) who give well under $422.57, then it would be reasonable to treat him and those of that class as an outlier, in terms of who is actually doing the giving (for statistical purposes, at least; there were such stats at the page I referenced in the other thread saying something like a very small percentage actually tithe in any given congregation, though I can't remember the exact percentage). Same would be true with regard to the smaller number of rich Catholics, Orthodox, or Protestants relative to the larger worldwide communions of all those, which are primarily made up of poorer people in countries where $422.57 per year is absolutely not doable. For example, the average yearly income in Ethiopia (which I'm only picking because it has a large Orthodox Christian population of over 32 million, representing over 40% of the country's total population) is the equivalent of just under $9,000 USD, which probably doesn't go nearly far enough when you consider that the nationwide average family size is 4.8 people (this is significantly higher than the Mormon average of 3.4, which is itself higher than the US general average of 2.1). With the exchange rate being as it is, $422.57 USD would be around 15,000 Ethiopian Birr, which is the equivalent of almost two months of the average monthly salary in that country (8,900 ETB).

as for volunteers, Utah ranks #1:

From: State Rankings by Volunteer Rate

That's excellent. I wonder, though: since the majority of Utah's charity is classified at that site as religiously-based, does that count the sending of Mormon missionaries as charity? I'm assuming these rankings are by self-report, so I imagine to find the answer you'd have to ask the respondent to specify. I'd be interested to see if the LDS religion tells its people that their missionary work is charity work. (I wouldn't assume they do, but I don't know.)