LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

[He is the way]

Because I can't invent data that I do not have? I don't have an LDS-specific total for tithes paid in the USA, probably because the LDS themselves are not forthcoming about their finances.



It was given as the total given by LDS Charities since 1985, as reported by LDS Charities itself/themselves in the linked article from Deseret News. I am not making any other claim than this, since that's as far as the source can lead us.



No I didn't, as I noted several posts ago. From post #401 (bolding by me):

Assuming wikipedia is correct, there are 6,721,032 LDS in the United States. Assuming that they are responsible for 100% of the $63 million the LDS are calculated to have given per year since 1985 (which is not realistic, but sure does simplify the math, so let's go with it; we'll do the same with Christians later, to make sure no one gets an unfair advantage, but everyone reading this should keep in mind that the same caveat applies to the Christian data, as the survey from which that total was taken wasn't a survey of every congregation or parish of every particular Church in the country; it was meant instead as a representative sample)​

Just like I would assume, therefore, that many were missed in the Christian polling (since the quoted stat of $50 billion was for "about ten million tithers", which is approximately 4.6% of the total number of Christians in the USA) -- perhaps due to not fitting nicely into the American religious landscape (I note that other stats from the same page reference Protestants specifically, so I'm assuming it's Protestant/Catholic-biased, and hence leaves out many who might describe themselves as neither) -- I would assume that perhaps many Mormons would be left out of the Deseret News article. But again, we can only go with the data that we actually have.



In the USA only? What's your source on this?

Because alright, let's look at it that way.

If $63 million is an accurate enough yearly figure (again, drawn from the Deseret News article's reporting of LDS Charities' own self-reported total of $2.2 billion given since 1985), then we'd have 0.0105, or about 1%, of the total yearly tithes going to charity. (In the post in the other thread, I was going based off another article from NBC News that said that the LDS earn $7 billion, not 6, but we'll go with your figure for this calculation, since it makes the total given a little bit better -- 0.0105 vs. 0.009.)



Again, you haven't shown it to be "apples to apples" unless we know that the six billion is from the US Mormon population only. What little I've been able to find suggests that this is not the case:

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - If the Mormon church were a business, wealthy adherents like Mitt Romney would count as its dominant revenue stream.

Its investment strategy would be viewed as risk-averse.

It would also likely attract corporate gadflies protesting a lack of transparency. They would call for less spending on real estate and more on charitable causes to improve membership growth - the Mormons’ return on investment.

Those are a few of the conclusions that can be drawn from an analysis of the church’s finances by Reuters and University of Tampa sociologist Ryan Cragun.

Relying heavily on church records in countries that require far more disclosure than the United States, Cragun and Reuters estimate that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints brings in some $7 billion annually in tithes and other donations.​

---

I've bolded the part that specifically points out that this total estimate is based on extrapolations from what can be found outside of the USA, which at least heavily implies that it is a worldwide total, though it does not specifically break down the $7 million figure into USA vs. non-USA tithing, so we can't be sure from this source alone how that works out.

If you have something more detailed than this, I think we'd all like to see it. After all, you've been trying to make the case today in your conversation with BigDaddy4 that the LDS religion is actually transparent with its finances. What better way to prove it than to show us all the real numbers, if you have them, and a breakdown of them in such a way as proves your assertions to me.

BigDaddy4 was unwilling to give me all of the information I asked for and I doubt his church would be willing to give me specific information about their clergy and who gets paid and how much. I can say this my 0% of tithing money goes to pay clergy and very little of it goes to clean buildings. Members volunteer to clean buildings and serve as clergy. LDS Charities does not use all of the money given to the church through tithing donations. I do not know the specifics of how much tithing is donated by church members living in the United States, just as you do not know the specifics on Christian tithes paid in the United States. I would venture to guess that it is over 3 billion dollars per year and 7 billion dollars per year worldwide although there are more members living outside the United states. The reason being that members in the United States have more money. That is why the 2.2 billion dollars between 1985 to the present day is flawed.

 

[Hrairoo]

How much do top Mormon leaders make? Leaked pay stubs may surprise you.

The top officials are paid. The rest are volunteers. I'm not surprised if LDS don't know this. I only found out after I left.

 

[He is the way]

Yah---how much to each??? That is what the question is!!!

Well I know that the church spent 562 million dollars to build a welfare ranch in Florida in 2014. They also spent a lot of money to update their welfare dairy. These facilities provide food for the needy. Members volunteer to work at welfare facilities. We volunteer at the temples to do the work for our kindred dead. People who don't believe in charity should not belong to The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

 

[dzheremi]

BigDaddy4 was unwilling to give me all of the information I asked for and I doubt his church would be willing to give me specific information about their clergy and who gets paid and how much.

That's between you and him.

I can say this my 0% of tithing money goes to pay clergy and very little of it goes to clean buildings.

This isn't what we're talking about in this conversation. You're just bringing it up in an effort to deflect from the actual conversation we're having (or at least that I'm trying to have; you seem unable or unwilling to get into specifics).

Members volunteer to clean buildings and serve as clergy.

I don't care.

LDS Charities does not use all of the money given to the church through tithing donations. I do not know the specifics of how much tithing is donated by church members living in the United States

Then why are you behaving like you do by claiming that the LDS religion collects $6 billion from its members in the USA?

You know, the thing you just did in post #422 earlier today by making what you claimed at the time was an "apples to apples" comparison? It's only really apples to apples if you have such a total for the LDS in the USA only, as the survey from which the $50 billion total was taken was for US churches only.

just as you do not know the specifics on Christian tithes paid in the United States.

The difference being that I never claimed to. I've been very transparent about the limitations of the data I'm working with.

I would venture to guess that it is over 3 billion dollars per year

Based on what?

and 7 billion dollars per year worldwide although there are more members living outside the United states.

Thank you. At least you're admitting now that the total you gave earlier is not just for the USA.

The reason being that members in the United States have more money. That is why the 2.2 billion dollars between 1985 to the present day is flawed.

Yet that is precisely the figure given by LDS Charities, so that's the one I have to go with.

Again, if you have anything that actually points to the number being other than this, you can present it here. Until then it's your hunch (based on nothing, as far as anyone here can tell) versus their self-reporting. I don't think they'd have a reason to lie; I'm not sure the same can be said of you.

 

[Peter1000]

What do I think? I think it sounds like gaslighting, to me. I am 33 years old. I was baptized at 8 and I was an active member until the start of this year. I grew up in the Susquehanna area where the Priesthood was restored and the historical sites have been tended to and displayed with pride. I have a BA in English from Brigham Young University of Idaho. I have taken several of the church's self-sufficiency classes. I have read the scriptures, read church approved church history materials, and watched live General Conferences consistently since I was 17. To tell me that because nobody taught certain things or talked about certain things it is MY fault is just the kind of deception and manipulation I am talking about.

I didn't leave the church because there's a business side to the church(even if that was not something that was ever talked about in all of the classes I have taken). In order from most important to medium importance, the five reasons I left the church:

1. Seer stones
2. The Book of Abraham
3. The church's racist doctrines both past and present
4. Polygamy and polyandry + D&C 132
5. The Kinderhook plates

There are several other things added onto this list but these are the main reasons why I cannot believe in the LDS church anymore. I have read apologetics from churchofjesuschrist.org itself and it is probably what has damaged my testimony the most.

Seer stones
Read your OT again and notice how many time stones are used by God to communicate something. Also each of those that enter into the Lord's presence will be given a white stone
with a new name on it.... (Revelations 2:17)
So stones have been used by the Lord in the past, and in the time of JS. A lot of people do not know this, so it can be confusing.

The Book of Abraham
The interesting thing about the Book of Abraham is that JS made some interesting interpretations of the facsimilies that came with the BOA. Many Egyptologists do not believe that JS interpreted correctly. These are the people that you have chosen to believe. Rather than your prophet and other Egyptologists that agree or partially agree with JS.
You have to remember that Egyptology is still an ongoing study. It is very difficult to know exactly what 300bc Egyptians were trying to say in their writings, let alone going back to 2000bc.
Is what JS said plausible. Many say yes, many say no. Study those that say yes and you will be better served. If you are going to doubt, why not doubt those say no, instead of those saying yes. The jury is still way to out for anyone to say this is false.

The church's racist doctrine...
Are you a Democrat. In fact, are you kidding. You were born after all men were given the right to hold priesthood. For the last 40 years all men have had the right to hold priesthood. In fact one of the largest areas of growth for the church is in black Africa. The church is all in and there is great work being done by all colors of people
throughout all the world. The church is the model that should be used by governments to mesh people of all colors in a great cause of witnessing to the world of Jesus Christ.
If you want to stay in the past and doubt the fuzzy past, do so and you will get left behind by all the colored folks you feel sorry for, who have the blessings of the priesthood and now you do not.

Polygamy and Polyandry
Polyandry has never been proved. JS did marry a few women that were married at the time to other men. However, JS marriage to them was for only "eternity". Not for "time and all eternity". "time" = "this life", "and all eternity" = "after death".
So JS marriage was for after they died, then they were married to him for eternity. So they went back to their husbands and lived out their lives without any sexual relations with JS, and when they died, then they were a wife of JS.
Polygany was a blessing to the church. It was able to grow exponentially and quickly became a nation in less time than usual. This nation then was able to defend itself, create its own economy, take care of the women who lost men in persecutions, create a missionary force quickly, etc., etc., etc.
You again are listening to the wrong people. Doubt what they say, not your prophet and leaders of the church and the actually facts about polygamy. Did some men abuse their relationships, yes, but those few can not be the examples you question. Look at all the hundreds of men and women who live the way the Lord wanted them to live at the time. Who brought to pass the word of the Lord and brought to pass a desert empire that is reaching around the world and declaring Jesus Christ is coming, prepare and repent and be ready for his second coming.

also read the OT and all the people (prophets, kings, priests, common men and women) that practiced plural marriage. The Lord allowed polygamy then, for the same reason he allowed JS and the church members to practice polygamy today. To grow a nation to the Lord, quickly.

The Kinderhook plates
Read the story from an LDS writer, and you will see how stupid this story really is. If you read it from an anti side, they tell a whole different story that is just not true.
Again, doubt the anti, do not doubt your religion.

I have looked at all of these examples you have given me many, many times and have remained faithful in the church because I doubted what they said, rather than my prophet and leaders and authors and researchers on our side. Do the same.

 

[Peter1000]

LOL!! Look, bottom line, LDS Church among the 10 richest churches, they are not among the 10 to give the most, by check, coins, paper money, debit cards, or chickens---anything that is translatable to income, they are not on the list of the 10 greatest charities! But they are sure on the list of those that rake it in the most. You don't seem to get the difference. Bring down to---The top 10 churches rake in $10.00---your church rakes in $10.00---the top 1o give just for kicks say---$3.00---the LDS is still not listed amongst those that give the $3.00 to the poor. They rake it in, they do not give anywhere near what they rake in to the poor. Get it?? You can say you give $25.00---doesn't matter. The amount the church rakes in, compared to what they are giving to the poor, is actually very little. If you get 200 million and give away to the poor, 1 million---not exactly being generous, is it? You all may be giving millions to the church, but the church is not giving millions to the poor.

Your right, the church is probably giving billions to the poor in cash and time and goods and education, and business investments, and many, many, many other ways. This is a silly conversation.

 

[Hrairoo]

I don't subscribe to the "rationale" that I should only listen to those who support my point of view and any one else who disagrees or has unflattering facts to share are "anti" and working for Satan. Sometimes, facts are just facts.

 

[Peter1000]

yes, that sounds very disingenuous to me.

and thanks for all the info about Joseph's "translation" process.

JS receive his translation from the Lord, which was done by revelation. Don't be confused with the 2 words.
In the case of the BOA, I am not sure there was a word for word translation of all of it. He did have original writings, but there could have been some information that he was given that were not part of the text.

It seems you are picking at straws and trying hard to make a case for JS or the church being disingenuous. Keep trying hard, I am positive if you doubt the prophets and the leaders of the church and the researchers, and authors of the church, you will be able to find those that would tell you things that you seem so desparate to hear about the church being disingenuous.

 

[mmksparbud]

Well I know that the church spent 562 million dollars to build a welfare ranch in Florida in 2014. They also spent a lot of money to update their welfare dairy. These facilities provide food for the needy. Members volunteer to work at welfare facilities. We volunteer at the temples to do the work for our kindred dead. People who don't believe in charity should not belong to The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

-

You will stand on your head over live coals to avoid answering a question directly.

 

[Peter1000]

How much do top Mormon leaders make? Leaked pay stubs may surprise you.

The top officials are paid. The rest are volunteers. I'm not surprised if LDS don't know this. I only found out after I left.

If this is a surprise to you, just know that information, although not out at sacrament meeting, is available.
Their pay is probably 25% of what they were making and could make on their own, outside the church. Remember they serve 24/7.

 

[Peter1000]

I don't subscribe to the "rationale" that I should only listen to those who support my point of view and any one else who disagrees or has unflattering facts to share are "anti" and working for Satan. Sometimes, facts are just facts.

I didn't say you shouldn't read and even listen to anti. But if you are going to doubt something, doubt them. My son is caught in your same trap. I ask him, what did you read in the last 6 months about the church. He mumbled something. Then I asked him did you read one positive article or did you read the BOM or the Bible in the last 6 months or read a good book about this subject. The answer now is no. So he is anti all the time. How does that serve to answer the question you desire an answer to?
I have found in my research of anti, that 50% of what they say and write is false information. Of the other 50%, 40% is innuendo or fuzzy facts that are controversial with a lot of guessing and subjective feelings. The other 10% is factual and true.
So again, always doubt those trying to get you to give up your testimony. They don't care if it is true or not, they just want to get you out of the church. Doubt that.

 

[Hrairoo]

If this is a surprise to you, just know that information, although not out at sacrament meeting, is available.
Their pay is probably 25% of what they were making and could make on their own, outside the church. Remember they serve 24/7.

I don't have to look far nor try very hard to find church members being disingenuous. I was always taught, in all the classes I have taken in church and BYU, that our leaders are not paid. Yet here you are with "The information was always there. It's not our fault we didn't teach you this."

It was the same with the seer stones. Primary and Sunday school: Joseph Smith translated the gold plates into English. *here's a picture of Joseph looking at the plates, here's a video of Joseph dictating from the plates*

Church leaders after they put out an essay on the seer stones: this information has always been available. We didn't lie and we didn't hide it from you.

You know, I would trust the prophets if I knew when to trust them and what parts of what they say to trust.

 

[Leaf473]

It is my opinion that it is not possible to prove anything to anyone. Mostly people who do not want to believe will continue not believing and those who do believe will continue to believe. Sometimes people change their beliefs like Paul and Thomas of old due to events that happened. I have good reason to believe that Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of God. My great great grandfather's diary is part of that proof. That being said Paul could not prove to everyone that Jesus was the Christ, neither can I prove to everyone that Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of God.

I hear what you're saying.

by "proof" in this context, I mean whether something is highly likely.
I think that's a fairly common approach.

suppose we consider as examples the urantia book, the book of Abraham, or Paul's letter to the Romans.
whether a particular person says one of those documents is from God or not will depend largely on their personal values, imo.

one reason I suspect that Joseph's production of the book of Abraham was not inspired by God is how Joseph handled the copies New testament documents which do exist today.

what is the evidence that you have that the book of Abraham is inspired by God, including things from your great great grandfather's diary?

 

[He is the way]

That's between you and him.



This isn't what we're talking about in this conversation. You're just bringing it up in an effort to deflect from the actual conversation we're having (or at least that I'm trying to have; you seem unable or unwilling to get into specifics).



I don't care.



Then why are you behaving like you do by claiming that the LDS religion collects $6 billion from its members in the USA?

You know, the thing you just did in post #422 earlier today by making what you claimed at the time was an "apples to apples" comparison? It's only really apples to apples if you have such a total for the LDS in the USA only, as the survey from which the $50 billion total was taken was for US churches only.



The difference being that I never claimed to. I've been very transparent about the limitations of the data I'm working with.



Based on what?



Thank you. At least you're admitting now that the total you gave earlier is not just for the USA.



Yet that is precisely the figure given by LDS Charities, so that's the one I have to go with.

Again, if you have anything that actually points to the number being other than this, you can present it here. Until then it's your hunch (based on nothing, as far as anyone here can tell) versus their self-reporting. I don't think they'd have a reason to lie; I'm not sure the same can be said of you.

Relying on LDS Charities as the only only source of how tithes and offerings are used, was the problem then. Since neither of us knows the exact amounts there is evidence that the LDS church conservatively collects around 3 billion dollars a year in the United States.
3 billion dollars divided by 6,721,032 = $446.36 per person

 

[He is the way]

That is the statistical report. It doesn't publicize the church's earnings, nor does it talk about costs or payments for things. It lists off church membership numbers, new churches and new temples, active missionary numbers. It's not a financial report.

I was talking about the church auditing report, not the statistical report.

 

[He is the way]

I don't have to look far nor try very hard to find church members being disingenuous. I was always taught, in all the classes I have taken in church and BYU, that our leaders are not paid. Yet here you are with "The information was always there. It's not our fault we didn't teach you this."

It was the same with the seer stones. Primary and Sunday school: Joseph Smith translated the gold plates into English. *here's a picture of Joseph looking at the plates, here's a video of Joseph dictating from the plates*

Church leaders after they put out an essay on the seer stones: this information has always been available. We didn't lie and we didn't hide it from you.

You know, I would trust the prophets if I knew when to trust them and what parts of what they say to trust.

That picture is correct for the Book of Lehi.

 

[He is the way]

I hear what you're saying.

by "proof" in this context, I mean whether something is highly likely.
I think that's a fairly common approach.

suppose we consider as examples the urantia book, the book of Abraham, or Paul's letter to the Romans.
whether a particular person says one of those documents is from God or not will depend largely on their personal values, imo.

one reason I suspect that Joseph's production of the book of Abraham was not inspired by God is how Joseph handled the copies New testament documents which do exist today.

what is the evidence that you have that the book of Abraham is inspired by God, including things from your great great grandfather's diary?

My evidence that the Book of Abraham is inspired is the Book of Mormon itself. Witnesses have stated that Joseph Smith used a seer stone in a hat to dictate most or all of the Book of Mormon to his scribes. He had no written material with him yet he was able to dictate large passages from the Bible while keeping everything coherent and in order. He started the next day exactly where he left off working on and completing the entire text in 65 working days. All this was done in the Kings English when he was around 23 years old. To me this is indeed a marvelous work and a wonder as stated by Isaiah:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 29:11 - 14)

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

As for my great great grandfather. He knew Joseph Smith well and spent quite a bit of time with him. On one occasion an incident took place in the mansion house which he wrote about in his diary. A young girl of 16 wrote about that same incident in her book about her near death experience. She stated that she saw the entire life of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith during her NDE. The two accounts written by my great great grandfather and her book match each other and I know of no other place where they are written down.

 

[Hrairoo]

That picture is correct for the Book of Lehi.

That distinction was never made. Certainly not in the church approved paintings teachers would get from the church library.

Is that Martin Harris?

Hmmm, no... Not quite.

Oh wait! Here's the other guy Joseph translated with!

Seems more like the artist was confused as well. Yet the church was like, "Sure. Go ahead and put that in the teaching materials."

There were no pictures or videos of stone in hat when I was in church. Not in the classes I was in.

 

[He is the way]

-

You will stand on your head over live coals to avoid answering a question directly.

Did it occur to you that I am telling you what I know and that I don't have all of the answers?

 

[Peter1000]

I don't have to look far nor try very hard to find church members being disingenuous. I was always taught, in all the classes I have taken in church and BYU, that our leaders are not paid. Yet here you are with "The information was always there. It's not our fault we didn't teach you this."

It was the same with the seer stones. Primary and Sunday school: Joseph Smith translated the gold plates into English. *here's a picture of Joseph looking at the plates, here's a video of Joseph dictating from the plates*

Church leaders after they put out an essay on the seer stones: this information has always been available. We didn't lie and we didn't hide it from you.

You know, I would trust the prophets if I knew when to trust them and what parts of what they say to trust.

The prophets are not perfect men nor are they infallible. Even though the church is perfect in its organization, the people in the church are not perfect. There are going to be mistakes and hickups now and then as people do the Lords work.

When I learned what I thought were facts about my religion that punched me in the face, I did not turn to those people for answers. I turned to our people, our prophets, our researchers, our authors. And I turned to God.

There have been many times that I was suddenly facing a critical moment in my belief system. But I usually turned to Fairmormon or a man that I knew had studied these things out long before me. I always found out that the facts are not always the facts and that the facts can be manipulated to come to the wrong conclusion.

I always turned to the church for answers rather than to the anti. I always became more prayerful and the answers I was looking for always came to me and I was satisfied. Never 100%, because there is a small % that needs to be there because in many of these issues, there is not enough evidence pro or con to satisfy 100%. We live on faith, and faith is not knowing 100%. However, when the Holy Spirit is with you, you can be satisfied and go on being active in the church.

So turn the right direction for your answers.