DID GOD DIE ON THE CROSS?

[ViaCrucis]

The often used term, "fullness of God dwelt in Jesus bodily" can be misunderstood. No human body can contain the fullness of God in an absolute sense because God is every where (infinite) all the time. That is why Jesus referred to God, prayed to God as though He (God) was someone else.
To take this one step further, all believers are an imperfect Jesus (God with us) but made perfect by faith which causes us to do good deeds.

No, it really was the case that the entire fullness of Deity--in the Eternal and distinct Person of the Son--that dwelt bodily; because Jesus Christ is Himself, as the very Son and Word of the Father from all eternity, the true and very God. God, in toto, became flesh. The Divine Person of the Son became flesh. And since the Son is fully God, it was the full Godhead, the full Deity, that became man.

The Father is God. All of God.
The Son is God. All of God.
And the Holy Spirit is God. All of God.

One God, one indivisible Essence, one Ousia as it is called in Greek, one Being.
Three consubstantial, co-eternal, distinct and fully Divine Persons.

That which the Father is, so is the Son and the Holy Spirit.

For the Father is unbegotten, and proceeds from none; but is the One from Whom the Son has His eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit His eternal procession.

The Son has His eternal Origin, His Source, in and from the Father, as the only-begotten Son of the Father, the very Word of the Father, eternally begotten without beginning or end: He is very God of very God, begotten, not made.

The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father [and the Son], and is with Father and Son worshiped and glorified.

For the Three are One in Being, and each is fully God truly in Himself, and each is God in and with the Other. For the Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father; and they are both in the Spirit, and the Spirit likewise in each.

As Christ says, "The Father is in Me and I am in the Father" and "The Father and I are One". And as He also says that He will ask the Father and He will send another helper, the Holy Spirit; and at the same time promises that He will not leave His disciples as orphans but will come to them. So that the Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Son, but Christ is in the Spirit with us, and the Father also, as Christ says that both He and His Father will make their dwelling us. So that each Person being fully God, indwelling one another, in what we refer to as their eternal perichoresis--their eternal co-inhabiting, interpenetrating, inter-dwelling with and in One and the Other. So that we can never separate any Person from the other.

Each is truly distinct, but never separate.
Each is fully God, and all are one and the same God, in absolute and indivisible unity.

The Son, distinctly, became man.
It is therefore the Son--who is Himself eternal and true and full God--that became flesh. Was conceived. Was born. Grew up in wisdom before both God and man. It was God who watched Joseph in his carpentry shop. It was God whose hand Mary took as they went shopping in the market. It was God was baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan. It was God who said that He would make some fishermen fishers of men. It was God who calmed the wind and the waves. It was God who wept when He came to Lazarus' tomb. It was God who broke bread and shared the cup of His Supper. It was God who knelt and prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane. It was God who was betrayed by Judas Iscariot. It was God who was taken before Pilate, was flogged, had a crown of thorns placed upon His head, and was forced to carry His cross to be crucified. It was God who was nailed to the cross. It was God who shed blood, whose flesh was pierced. It was God who cried out, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" It was God who cried out, "Father, forgive them". It was God who "gave up the ghost" and died. It was God who was wrapped in burial clothes and buried in a rock-hewn tomb. It was God who descended into She'ol. It was God who destroyed the power of death and the devil. It was God who rose again on the third day. It was God who ascended to the Father. It is God who is seated at the right hand of His Father. And it is God who will return, in glory, to judge the living and the dead.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Monna]

I think there is a logical element that could solve it, if anyone were willing to accept it.
We can all agree that:
A cow is an animal, but an animal is not a cow.

How many can accept the equivalent?
Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus.

As to the question of whether or not Jesus "died" spiritually, I think that is very much a question of our understanding or belief of what death is.

Jesus cried "My God my God why have you forsaken me?" Did he mean this, did the Father turn his face from him, actually break contact with him, and "make him sin" - sin that He cannot tolerate in His presence? Or was Jesus mistaken, and the Father had not in fact forsaken him? How, if he were God, could He have got that so wrong? Or again, was it just for the gallery?

If death means entering the realm of the Enemy, how did he do that without dying? In the Scriptures death is more that biological death.

Ephesians 2:4-6
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus...

Our death refered to here was definitely NOT biological death, because at the point we were biologically alive and spritually dead. And the life with which "God raised us up with Christ" also happened when we were biological alive - so we were made spiritually alive with Christ in his resurrection. He entered into our (spiritual) death, so that we can participate in His life - all of it!

 

[ViaCrucis]

No. Only the human part, his body, died on the cross. The divine part cannot die and that part of Christ left the dead human body and remained alive. That was the part he commended to his Father's hands.

Luk_23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

The second person of the Trinity has always been immortal and unable to die, the same as his Father. This is why he had to come here to be born of a woman in a mortal body to die as the Lamb of God.

There is no "human part", just as there is no "Divine part". Christ is not part human and part divine. He is fully human and fully Divine.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Wondering here the significance of Jesus commending His spirit into the Father's hands...I take all this without question b/c it seems beyond reason to me...but, do you see a logical step here? An unbeliever finds many aspects of the faith hard to accept at times much less this and if there is an answer it may help in testimony.

The Lord commending Himself to the Father, in death, is simply Christ dying and saying that His life--which is now being extinguished for the sins of the world--is in His Father's hands.

"Into Your hands I commend My spirit" is simply a reference to His life, in the same way that the phrase "He gave up the ghost" is simply a way of saying He breathed His last--He died.

Christ, as fully human, means that His mind is human, His soul/spirit is human, etc. Christ is fully man, and here dies fully as a man. Our confession and faith is that this Person, this One who suffers and dies as a man, is also truly and very God. So it is God who dies, even as it is here a man who dies. Because it is the one and only undivided Jesus here on the cross.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ewq1938]

There is no "human part", just as there is no "Divine part". Christ is not part human and part divine. He is fully human and fully Divine.

-CryptoLutheran

And the Divine did not die nor can die because God is immortal and has always been immortal. Thus, only the mortal body God created and inhabited could die and did die. This was accomplished by the second person of the Trinity.

 

[ViaCrucis]

And the Divine did not die nor can die because God is immortal and has always been immortal. Thus, only the mortal body God created and inhabited could die and did die. This was accomplished by the second person of the Trinity.

You're attempting to use sophistry to explain away the Gospel.

Yes, you are right, God who is Immortal and Eternal cannot die.
And yet, that's exactly what happened on the cross.

He who cannot die, died.

This must be received in faith, not argued away through philosophy or sophistry.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.'

Where is the philosopher? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the foolishness of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." - 1 Corinthians 1:18-25

Believe the Good News.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ewq1938]

You're attempting to use sophistry to explain away the Gospel.

Obviously that's a false accusation. No one is explaining away the gospel.

Yes, you are right, God who is Immortal and Eternal cannot die.
And yet, that's exactly what happened on the cross.

And that is obviously wrong as the first statement contradicts the second. If God died then God is not immortal and eternal yet we know God IS immortal and eternal.

He who cannot die, died.

No. His body died. HE was still alive.

This must be received in faith, not argued away through philosophy or sophistry.

It should be rejected as it is not scriptural. Arguing that an immortal and eternal God died should not be argued through philosophy or sophistry.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Obviously that's a false accusation. No one is explaining away the gospel.




And that is obviously wrong as the first statement contradicts the second. If God died then God is not immortal and eternal yet we know God IS immortal and eternal.



No. His body died. HE was still alive.



It should be rejected as it is not scriptural. Arguing that an immortal and eternal God died should not be argued through philosophy or sophistry.

Explaining away, and arguing away the Gospel is exactly what you are doing. The contradiction--the paradox--that God who cannot die, died is something you are rejecting because it is contrary to your reason. You are using reason to deny the Gospel.

That's not a false accusation, it is an observation of what you are doing here.

Yes, the Incarnation is offensive to reason, it is FOOLISHNESS. That's what St. Paul says. It is absurd, it is insane, it is crazy, it is completely unbelievable--and it is true.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The Lord commending Himself to the Father, in death, is simply Christ dying and saying that His life--which is now being extinguished for the sins of the world--is in His Father's hands.

"Into Your hands I commend My spirit" is simply a reference to His life, in the same way that the phrase "He gave up the ghost" is simply a way of saying He breathed His last--He died.

Christ, as fully human, means that His mind is human, His soul/spirit is human, etc. Christ is fully man, and here dies fully as a man. Our confession and faith is that this Person, this One who suffers and dies as a man, is also truly and very God. So it is God who dies, even as it is here a man who dies. Because it is the one and only undivided Jesus here on the cross.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you for your answer; it somehow seemed more mysterious. (not that this all isn't a huge mystery...revealed and unrevealed.

 

[prodromos]

It should be rejected as it is not scriptural. Arguing that an immortal and eternal God died should not be argued through philosophy or sophistry.

We are arguing that the person who is God died. What you are arguing is inadvertently dividing the person of Christ, which is precisely the error of Nestorius

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hi there,

How comfortable are we with this suggestion?

Is this a case of applying human reason to the mysteries of God and coming out with an invalid answer?

Your thoughts very much appreciated.

Do some churches insist on believing this?

The bible says:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Regardless of the "way" that the trinity works, it's consistency. Jesus is a part of the Godhead. As such HIs physical body, which could feel pain, died. Yet His Spirit lived on. So God died a human death. Like us we are a spirit in a body, our body may die, but our spirit will live on in a new body.

 

[grafted branch]

The Son has His eternal Origin, His Source, in and from the Father, as the only-begotten Son of the Father, the very Word of the Father, eternally begotten without beginning or end: He is very God of very God, begotten, not made.

I’m just curious here and not trying to debate you; what about Psalms 2:7, Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5, and Hebrews 5:5 where it gives the impression that the Son wasn’t always begotten and his status changed on a specific day when he became begotten. Could you give me your interpretation on this? Thanks.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The Word became flesh and dwelled among us...

 

[hedrick]

Wording here is a bit difficult, for obvious reasons. Normally when someone dies, they are dead. But it would be odd to say that God is dead. God's human body is dead. Yet the death happened to the single Person. How would you feel about saying that God experienced death?

---------

After more reading, I see issues with that wording as well. In classical theology, God is impassible. God simpliciter can't suffer or die, but can only do so by virtue of the Incarnation. This position is widely challenged in modern theology. Saying that God experienced death suggests that God in his divinity suffered. Whether it suggests that more or less than "God died" is a bit unclear. But perhaps the obvious impossibility of the literal meaning protects it against misunderstanding.

I still think it's potentially misleading if used with people who don't have a theological background. That doesn't bother some people, as they think we should flaunt our paradoxes. However in a world that thinks Christian theology is self-contradictory, I'm not so sure that's a good idea. Something like "God died in the flesh" would both maintain that it was God that died and protect against misunderstanding. I believe this is actually traditional wording.

-----

Finally, I note that as this is General Theology, I'm operating within the realm of traditional theology. That's not necessarily my personal view. I generally accept more modern, though still Trinitarian, theology.

 

[ewq1938]

It is absurd, it is insane, it is crazy, it is completely unbelievable--and it is true.

The idea that an immortal God died "is absurd, it is insane, it is crazy, it is completely unbelievable"-- and it is false.

 

[ewq1938]

We are arguing that the person who is God died. What you are arguing is inadvertently dividing the person of Christ, which is precisely the error of Nestorius

Death of his body separated the immortal from the mortal. It was the mortal that died not the immortal because immortal means death is impossible.

 

[prodromos]

Death of his body separated the immortal from the mortal. It was the mortal that died not the immortal because immortal means death is impossible.

You're still using language that divides the person of Jesus, which is essentially Nestorianism.

 

[ewq1938]

You're still using language that divides the person of Jesus, which is essentially Nestorianism.

I am using the language of the bible which does describe a division at the death of his mortal body. His spirit left the body and returned at the resurrection. Additionally since an immortal Divinity cannot die, it is automatically false to use the wording "God died". The accurate wording is "God the Son's mortal body died".

As others have said, saying, "God died" is misleading, not to mention impossible. So, let's use more accurate wording for the things the bible describes.

 

[RushMAN]

Christ was and is God and Man, not two separate but mixed together. Christ did not divide Himself

 

[prodromos]

I am using the language of the bible which does describe a division at the death of his mortal body. His spirit left the body and returned at the resurrection

That is not the language of the Bible at all.

Matthew 27:50

And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up HIS spirit.​

Mark 15:37

And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up HIS spirit.​

Luke 23:46

Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this HE breathed HIS last.​

John 19:30

When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished”; and HE bowed HIS head and gave up HIS spirit.​

The Biblical language is all about the person of Jesus Christ. It does not divide His person as the language you are using does.