DID GOD DIE ON THE CROSS?

[ZNP]

Hi there,

How comfortable are we with this suggestion?

Is this a case of applying human reason to the mysteries of God and coming out with an invalid answer?

Your thoughts very much appreciated.

Do some churches insist on believing this?

My understanding is that the Man, Jesus Christ died, and when He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God we now have the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, who has experienced death and burial, and these components are like spices which have been added to the Holy Spirit making it The Spirit.

The Spirit and soul didn't die, but then they don't die with you either. So Jesus took mortal flesh and brought that mortal human body into the divine. Paul talks about the body being sown into the ground like a seed and rising up as a plant that doesn't look the same as that seed.

 

[prodromos]

That's incorrect. Nestorianism is the doctrine that there were two separate persons, one human and one divine. I don't believe he was two separate persons because the bible doesn't support that nor does the bible support that "God died".

If the person who is God died, then God absolutely did die. It isn't a statement about His divine nature, it is a statement about the person and who He is. You are making exactly the same argument as Nestorius.

Only the human body died that God the Son inhabited. Nothing that was divine died nor could have died.

Jesus did not inhabit a human body. He was and still is human.

 

[ewq1938]

If the person who is God died, then God absolutely did die. It isn't a statement about His divine nature, it is a statement about the person and who He is. You are making exactly the same argument as Nestorius.

It's a different argument.

Jesus did not inhabit a human body. He was and still is human.

God the Son did inhabit a human body, it's called the incarnation. Mary conceived this body in her body and gave birth. When that body died on the cross the divine Spirit left the body for 3 days and nights then the Spirit was re-united with the body and there was the Resurrection.

 

[prodromos]

It's a different argument.

Nope.

God the Son did inhabit a human body, it's called the incarnation. Mary conceived this body in her body and gave birth. When that body died on the cross the divine Spirit left the body for 3 days and nights then the Spirit was re-united with the body and there was the Resurrection.

If Jesus did not have a human soul then He was not human. John's Gospel states that "the Word became flesh", not "the Word inhabited flesh".

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Nope.

If Jesus did not have a human soul then He was not human. John's Gospel states that "the Word became flesh", not "the Word inhabited flesh".

Yeah, He's called the last Adam for a reason.

 

[Saint JOHN]

His biological form (that Mary gave birth to) died/gave up the Spirit ! God doesn't die ! and can recreate a human form ! as Jesus rose early on the third day and many appearances...

this biological machine must terminate sooner or later for all .. we have to pay the piper eventually !

 

[throughfiierytrial]

It's actually the orthodox teaching of Christianity, and thus is the belief of every mainstream, historic church: Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant.

We do not divide Christ, thus we cannot say "only the man" or "only the Deity". We must always speak of the one and only undivided Person of Jesus, without confusing or separating His humanity and Deity.

Did a man die on the cross? Yes. Because Jesus is human.
Did God die on the cross? Yes. Because Jesus is God.

-CryptoLutheran

Wondering here the significance of Jesus commending His spirit into the Father's hands...I take all this without question b/c it seems beyond reason to me...but, do you see a logical step here? An unbeliever finds many aspects of the faith hard to accept at times much less this and if there is an answer it may help in testimony.

 

[klutedavid]

Hi there,

How comfortable are we with this suggestion?

Is this a case of applying human reason to the mysteries of God and coming out with an invalid answer?

Your thoughts very much appreciated.

Do some churches insist on believing this?

Did the Word die on the cross; would be a better way of asking your question.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made . . . The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-3, 14)

 

[Carl Emerson]

Actually I hoped that folks would grapple with the 'Jesus is God' 'Jesus died on the cross' 'God died on the cross' dilemma.

Frankly I think applying logic to the mystery of the trinity is the problem.

Theology can fall into this trap also.

One assumption made is that the terms Father, Son, Word, somehow convey a totality of truth, when they are just God approved labels for a greater mystery than language can not readily convey.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Actually I hoped that folks would grapple with the 'Jesus is God' 'Jesus died on the cross' 'God died on the cross' dilemma.

Frankly I think applying logic to the mystery of the trinity is the problem.

Theology can fall into this trap also.

One assumption made is that the terms Father, Son, Word, somehow convey a totality of truth, when they are just God approved labels for a greater mystery than language can not readily convey.

It is a great and wondrous mystery indeed and nice you opened a thread to consider it...in a way it widens the mystery and awesomeness of God b/c we are considering it all the more carefully. Thanks

 

[Jaxxi]

Christ and His Father are one and the same God.

Christ is God, He is God the Son.
Christ died on the cross. That means God the Son died on the cross. Because that's WHO Jesus is.

Of course the Father and the Holy Spirit didn't die.
But the Son did.

-CryptoLutheran

Was He not resurrected? That means brought back to life. The Sons BODY did, because for Jesus to pay our debt His blood needed to touch the ground, but Jesus lives. Jesus spoke to God the Father, He prayed to God, He was not praying to Himself. Jesus and God are not One in the same. They have the same Authority, but Jesus sat at the right hand of God during the Creation. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven” ( Hebrews 1:3 ). He did not sit next to Himself...

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hi there,

How comfortable are we with this suggestion?

Is this a case of applying human reason to the mysteries of God and coming out with an invalid answer?

Your thoughts very much appreciated.

Do some churches insist on believing this?

Here is an interesting verse to think on (from KJV)

“ 1 John 3:16. Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.”

 

[Scott Husted]

Did the church Fathers insist on this belief - Than God died on the Cross ???

The question Did God die on the cross? is the same in essence as Can God have a son?

 

[Daniel9v9]

To say that God died on a cross is perfectly Biblical and orthodox - though it can be abused. We can't say that the Father died, or that the Holy Spirit died, but we can say that the Son died. But in the Son, the fullness of the deity dwells bodily; He is God in flesh, and He truly suffered and died for us.

This is a great mystery but put very simply: There is one God - YHWH. Jesus is YHWH, and He died.

I think in most contexts it can be preferable to refer to Christ or the Son dying, in order to avoid confusion. However, sometimes we can refer to God for special emphasis.

 

[misput]

Well here is my take...

The question is a conundrum...

We have to carefully define terms first.

Was Jesus fully God ?

Yes - He chose to take human limitations while on earth but was fully God.

Did He die? Yes but we first must define death - The body stopped working, the Spirit departed.

Did the Spirit die? No...

Did the flesh die - yes

Did Jesus who is God die? Yes

Did The Spirit in Jesus who is God also die - No.

By the way I don't think "My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me" is evidence of separation for two reasons.

1. Jesus had taken on human limitations and didn't know for a time all the plans of the Father (Him not knowing the day of His second coming is a case in point) Because of this He perceived his plight as separation when His Father was right there with Him.

2. Psalms werent numbered and were referenced by key verses - often first verses. He was quoting Psalm 22:1 to indicate the fulfillment of the Psalm - He was not declaring He was separated. (Look at verse 3)

You are right, for complete verification read the whole chapter and especially take note of verse 24.

 

[misput]

The often used term, "fullness of God dwelt in Jesus bodily" can be misunderstood. No human body can contain the fullness of God in an absolute sense because God is every where (infinite) all the time. That is why Jesus referred to God, prayed to God as though He (God) was someone else.
To take this one step further, all believers are an imperfect Jesus (God with us) but made perfect by faith which causes us to do good deeds.

 

[Paulpaul7216]

Hi there,

How comfortable are we with this suggestion?

Is this a case of applying human reason to the mysteries of God and coming out with an invalid answer?

Your thoughts very much appreciated.

Do some churches insist on believing this?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Here is an interesting verse to think on (from KJV)

“ 1 John 3:16. Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.”

Yes for sure... links to Rev 2:5 and Acts 4:32ff

 

[Carl Emerson]

To say that God died on a cross is perfectly Biblical and orthodox - though it can be abused

If one insists that this needs to be a verbal confession to confirm being a true believer, is this abuse???

 

[ViaCrucis]

Was He not resurrected? That means brought back to life. The Sons BODY did, because for Jesus to pay our debt His blood needed to touch the ground, but Jesus lives.

Jesus died, and Jesus rose. Yes.
That means God died, and God rose from the dead.
Because Jesus, as the Eternal Son of the Father become flesh, become man, is a single undivided Person. It was the Person who died, the Person who rose again bodily.

Jesus spoke to God the Father, He prayed to God, He was not praying to Himself. Jesus and God are not One in the same.

He is not the Father, so no He did not pray to Himself because He prayed to His Father. But He, as the Son, is One with the Father, Consubstantial with the Father as very God of very God. He is God even as the Father is God. The very one and same God.

Because we confess one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Substance.

Jesus and His Father are one and the same God; but are distinct Persons.

They have the same Authority, but Jesus sat at the right hand of God during the Creation. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven” ( Hebrews 1:3 ). He did not sit next to Himself...

Right. He is seated at the right hand of His Father; not seated next to Himself.

-CryptoLutheran