Can you have a Premillennial Kingdom with an Amillennial Christ?

[Marilyn C]

There is not. You add unto the text because your future Millennium is a Jewish fallacy.

So are you saying that there is not space between - Christ the first-fruits and afterwards those at His coming?

 

[Marilyn C]

That is what the Dispy Millennium is.

Fine but as I said I believe in the millennium but not in the revived old covenant. So you have only heard a false teaching of the millennium and not the truth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

And your scriptures for that, please.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How can anyone survive this? They cannot! It's impossible! Well the second coming is the end for the wicked, the righteous inherit the new heavens and new earth; not some suppose future thousand years that is polluted by sin, sinners, Satan, death and ongoing corruption. The appearing of Christ spells the end for all unrighteousness. Anything that is not glorified is consumed. Peter demonstrates here that when Jesus comes back the heavens, earth and all that is on the earth, and the elements are going to dissolve. His glory and unchallenged reign will be set up on the new renewed earth.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away (or departed); and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

Here is Christ returning enthroned, whereupon the general judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So are you saying that there is not space between - Christ the first-fruits and afterwards those at His coming?

No. 1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 21-24, asking, “how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain…But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Fine but as I said I believe in the millennium but not in the revived old covenant. So you have only heard a false teaching of the millennium and not the truth.

• Is the physical temple rebuilt in your alleged future millennium?
• Is the Levitical priesthood restored in your alleged future millennium?
• Are blood sacrifices restarted in your alleged future millennium?

 

[Jamdoc]

You avoid text after text that refutes your teaching.

Satan and the beast have power, but God has all-power. Jesus holds all power. He is sovereign. Jesus rules over His enemies today until they bare finally destroyed at His climactic return.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Satan and his emissaries have not been rendered immobile or inoperative but are limited in their power, control and influence. Satan is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled. Get close to him and he will hurt. Many have opened themselves up to Satan and got hurt. The Church defeats Satan by invading his territory with the light of the Gospel and exercising our delegated power in subjugating devils through the power of the Holy Ghost and by the exercise of faith.

I don't ignore any of that. I've told you, Jesus is sovereign. But sovereignty also includes delegation of power to manage things of smaller importance. Right now some authority over this physical cursed world, is delegated to Satan, that is why he has power to give in Luke 4, and Revelation 13, and why Paul calls him the "god of this world" in 2 Corinthians 4:4.
All of your verses aside from the ones from Revelation, do not show Satan to have had delegated authority stripped from him, but rather than when the king orders the steward to do something, the steward does as the king says, because the King is who has the sovereingty. Satan and all demons have some measure of power, but Jesus supercedes them as the sovereign, so if Jesus says stop what you're doing, they have to obey.
That doesn't mean they have no power, it means they're lower in hierarchy.
Now the passages from Revelation show a loss of Satan's power, I'll agree, but that happens not all at once. He's thrown from heaven and loses his position within heaven as our accuser, he can't do that anymore, he just lost that job. But being that the scripture also gives him a short time, I don't agree that over 1900 years is short. But in Revelation 13, he still has some power and great authority to delegate to the beast, so he didn't lose it all. Revelation 20, Satan loses more power, as he's imprisoned, but then he's turned loose, and given some power back to deceive the nations for a little season. Then he finally loses all his power and is utterly destroyed forever and ever.

The difference in our stances on this issue, is that you agree with preterists that those verses already happened. I think they are future events, because if the events happened in the past, it doesn't line up with where we are in the present, with a world that is getting worse and worse, with Satan's deception everywhere in the world. This world is getting worse, not better.

So, it comes down to this.
Do you believe that the beast in Revelation, and the False Prophet, are past events? Or do you believe they are future.
and I should remind you, that Matthew 24:21 Jesus tells us

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

70AD was not worse than the Third Reich. I can tell you that much, it wasn't worse than Stalin or Mao's communist purges. Keep that in mind.

 

[Jamdoc]

• Is the physical temple rebuilt in your alleged future millennium?
• Is the Levitical priesthood restored in your alleged future millennium?
• Are blood sacrifices restarted in your alleged future millennium?

Revelation 20 mentions none of that, so I will say no. Millennium is not Old Testament teaching it's quite lietrally, as you like to point out, almost entirely based on Revelation 20.

 

[Marilyn C]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How can anyone survive this? They cannot! It's impossible! Well the second coming is the end for the wicked, the righteous inherit the new heavens and new earth; not some suppose future thousand years that is polluted by sin, sinners, Satan, death and ongoing corruption. The appearing of Christ spells the end for all unrighteousness. Anything that is not glorified is consumed. Peter demonstrates here that when Jesus comes back the heavens, earth and all that is on the earth, and the elements are going to dissolve. His glory and unchallenged reign will be set up on the new renewed earth.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away (or departed); and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

Here is Christ returning enthroned, whereupon the general judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming.

So where does it say that we `come down again` after being `caught up?

Where des it say that the Body of Christ inherits the new Jerusalem?

 

[Marilyn C]

No. 1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 21-24, asking, “how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain…But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

So do you see the believers in the Body of Christ at the Great White Throne judgment?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't ignore any of that. I've told you, Jesus is sovereign. But sovereignty also includes delegation of power to manage things of smaller importance. Right now some authority over this physical cursed world, is delegated to Satan, that is why he has power to give in Luke 4, and Revelation 13, and why Paul calls him the "god of this world" in 2 Corinthians 4:4.
All of your verses aside from the ones from Revelation, do not show Satan to have had delegated authority stripped from him, but rather than when the king orders the steward to do something, the steward does as the king says, because the King is who has the sovereingty. Satan and all demons have some measure of power, but Jesus supercedes them as the sovereign, so if Jesus says stop what you're doing, they have to obey.
That doesn't mean they have no power, it means they're lower in hierarchy.
Now the passages from Revelation show a loss of Satan's power, I'll agree, but that happens not all at once. He's thrown from heaven and loses his position within heaven as our accuser, he can't do that anymore, he just lost that job. But being that the scripture also gives him a short time, I don't agree that over 1900 years is short. But in Revelation 13, he still has some power and great authority to delegate to the beast, so he didn't lose it all. Revelation 20, Satan loses more power, as he's imprisoned, but then he's turned loose, and given some power back to deceive the nations for a little season. Then he finally loses all his power and is utterly destroyed forever and ever.

The difference in our stances on this issue, is that you agree with preterists that those verses already happened. I think they are future events, because if the events happened in the past, it doesn't line up with where we are in the present, with a world that is getting worse and worse, with Satan's deception everywhere in the world. This world is getting worse, not better.

So, it comes down to this.
Do you believe that the beast in Revelation, and the False Prophet, are past events? Or do you believe they are future.
and I should remind you, that Matthew 24:21 Jesus tells us


70AD was not worse than the Third Reich. I can tell you that much, it wasn't worse than Stalin or Mao's communist purges. Keep that in mind.

You have yet to show one verse where God delegated any power or authority to Satan. That is because it does not exist. Jesus actually came to strip the devil of his power and authority and made a show of him openly. As a result, Satan was then cast out of heaven. Christ delegated power and authority to the Church while on earth. The Church now enforces that as it overcomes the kingdom of darkness with the light.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So where does it say that we `come down again` after being `caught up?

Where des it say that the Body of Christ inherits the new Jerusalem?

The NHNE occurs after Christ's coming. Nowhere does it say we go to heaven. The dead in Christ come with Him from heaven.

 

[BABerean2]

Peter had to be shown to go to the Gentiles. He did not want to at first. He knew NOTHING of the Body of Christ.

`Not so Lord for I have never eaten anything common or unclean.` (Acts 10: 14)

Then Peter gets a revelation -

`You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.` (Acts 10: 28)

Are you saying Peter got a direct revelation from God, in the same way Paul got a revelation from Christ?

Then are you admitting that Peter also came to understand some of the changes within the New Covenant?



.

 

[Marilyn C]

The NHNE occurs after Christ's coming. Nowhere does it say we go to heaven. The dead in Christ come with Him from heaven.

IN HEAVEN

Our inheritance, our hope, our place, our citizenship, all of which are IN HEAVEN.

`...to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.` (1 Peter 1: 4 )

` ...because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of truth..`(Col. 1: 5)

` ...and raised us up together and made to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.`(Eph. 2: 6)

` For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 3: 20)

 

[Marilyn C]

Are you saying Peter got a direct revelation from God, in the same way Paul got a revelation from Christ?

Then are you admitting that Peter also came to understand some of the changes within the New Covenant?

Yes the Lord gave Peter an understanding that the Gentiles were to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit just as the Jews did also.

Yet we read later that Peter still tried to get the gentile believers to act like Jews. (Gal. 2: 11 - 15) Then we know that Paul withstood him.

 

[Jamdoc]

So where does it say that we `come down again` after being `caught up?

Where des it say that the Body of Christ inherits the new Jerusalem?

Revelation 19:14

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

and actually thinking on this is why post trib makes very little sense. They say that we meet Christ in the clouds and come right back down. But here the saints (clothed in fine linen, white and clean, that is saints in heaven, as shown in Revelation 6 after the 5th seal, and Revelation 7) are coming from heaven, and they've been clothed in white, not just people raising from their graves and turning right back around to earth.

You could say pretrib or prewrath from this, but not posttrib. I'd say due to some other things such as the timing that Jesus gives in Matthew 24, and the signs He gives in Matthew 24 that correspond perfectly to Revelation 6 after the 6th seal, that that is where the rapture is.
Pre wrath aligns with scripture, even in little details such as this where the saints are coming down from heaven.

 

[Marilyn C]

Revelation 19:14


and actually thinking on this is why post trib makes very little sense. They say that we meet Christ in the clouds and come right back down. But here the saints (clothed in fine linen, white and clean, that is saints in heaven, as shown in Revelation 6 after the 5th seal, and Revelation 7) are coming from heaven, and they've been clothed in white, not just people raising from their graves and turning right back around to earth.

You could say pretrib or prewrath from this, but not posttrib. I'd say due to some other things such as the timing that Jesus gives in Matthew 24, and the signs He gives in Matthew 24 that correspond perfectly to Revelation 6 after the 6th seal, that that is where the rapture is.
Pre wrath aligns with scripture, even in little details such as this where the saints are coming down from heaven.

Good thought there Jamdoc. For you see that the armies coming from heaven are NOT the believers as people have thought. You see angels are described as clothed in linen pure and white. (Rev. 16: 16) Then we know from the Lord Himself who comes with Him - the angels -


`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory.

And He will send His angels..` (Matt.24: 30 & 31)

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

 

[Marilyn C]

• Is the physical temple rebuilt in your alleged future millennium?
• Is the Levitical priesthood restored in your alleged future millennium?
• Are blood sacrifices restarted in your alleged future millennium?

The Old Covenant is related to the 10 commandments. God said He would write them on their hearts.

`I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statues, and you will keep my judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave your fathers; you shall be my people and I will be your God.` (Ez. 36: 26 - 28)

There will be a king, (David) and priests. Those two offices were ordained by God in the beginning and will continue in each realm under Christ who is the King and High priest.

Adam was a priest, to worship God, and a king - to have dominion over the earth.

Each realm - earth, New Jerusalem and the third heaven all have kings and priests unto God under the sovereign Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[sovereigngrace]

IN HEAVEN

Our inheritance, our hope, our place, our citizenship, all of which are IN HEAVEN.

`...to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.` (1 Peter 1: 4 )

` ...because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of truth..`(Col. 1: 5)

` ...and raised us up together and made to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.`(Eph. 2: 6)

` For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 3: 20)

Exactly, He is preparing a place for us now. But the dead in Christ leave heaven at the second advent to populate the new earth. The bride is represented as the holy city. Revelation 21:9-10 confirms: "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God."

That “prepared” city is repeatedly described in Scripture as the New Jerusalem – the heavenly city. In a parallel passage in Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while also speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”


This Second Coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His Coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. At the end of the millennium it descends to the new earth. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His Coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

Knitting all these passages together reinforces the Amillennial and Postmillennial positions that Revelation 20 is speaking about a current period of time. It is clear Premillennialism has a major problem here. First, John 14:1-3 ties Christ to the heavenly city and presents that city, which is being prepared, as the eternal hope of the saints. If that city does not appear until after the millennium as a Premillennial reading of Revelation 20 would require then the saints will not experience that prepared city for over 1,000 years.

Premillennialism divorces Christ from the eternal city He is preparing now. It also evacuates the New Jerusalem at the second coming and forbids the saints entry to it for 1,000 years. Why would Christ emphasise the eternal glory and comfort of this city He is preparing for His people if they were not going to immediately enjoy it when they die or when He appears? The whole promise of John 14:1-3 is negated by this theological school of thought. Premillennialism must also ignore Revelation 3:11-12, which, whilst speaking of the Coming of Christ, describes the accompanying descent of the heavenly abode.

No wonder 1 Corinthians 2:9 says, “as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”

I guess if I was to sum up the great difficulty I have with Premillennialism on this matter, it is its constant focus upon the natural city Jerusalem, and their notion that God's favour is upon this Christ-rejecting people, rather than focusing like Abraham upon that city that embraces the true chosen of God – the New Jerusalem. The New Testament constantly directs our eyes toward the heavenly Jerusalem, whereas Premils are constantly speaking of, and speculating about, the old Jerusalem, which we know is likened today unto Sodom and Egypt (Revelation 11) and is now "in bondage with her children" (Galatians 4:22-26).

 

[sovereigngrace]

The Old Covenant is related to the 10 commandments. God said He would write them on their hearts.

`I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statues, and you will keep my judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave your fathers; you shall be my people and I will be your God.` (Ez. 36: 26 - 28)

There will be a king, (David) and priests. Those two offices were ordained by God in the beginning and will continue in each realm under Christ who is the King and High priest.

Adam was a priest, to worship God, and a king - to have dominion over the earth.

Each realm - earth, New Jerusalem and the third heaven all have kings and priests unto God under the sovereign Lord Jesus Christ.

Stop avoiding please:

• Is the physical temple rebuilt in your alleged future millennium?
• Is the Levitical priesthood restored in your alleged future millennium?
• Are blood sacrifices restarted in your alleged future millennium?

 

[Jamdoc]

Good thought there Jamdoc. For you see that the armies coming from heaven are NOT the believers as people have thought. You see angels are described as clothed in linen pure and white. (Rev. 16: 16) Then we know from the Lord Himself who comes with Him - the angels -


`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory.

And He will send His angels..` (Matt.24: 30 & 31)

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

But they are the saints.
Revelation 6:9-11

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9-14

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Right there.. we see those white robes, are the saints, and, it demonstrates not pretrib rapture.
For us to go to heaven after Jesus comes in the clouds and gathers us, and come back down from heaven with Him when He comes back to earth, is consistent with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If Jesus is in heaven, we'll be in heaven, if He comes to earth, we come to Earth, would you, after being resurrected, want to be somewhere where Jesus was not?

There will be angels there too, but I argue that angels AND saints will be the armies coming from heaven.

look at your quotes from Matthew 24. the darkening of the sun and moon, the heavens shaking, the tribes of the earth mourning..

Now compare it to Revelation 6:12-17

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

...shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light...

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

...and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken...

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

....then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn...

Now after Revelation 11, which portrays some finality, that it's all done, we see that Revelation breaks Chronology, where Chapters 4-11 seem to be one single vision in chronological order. Revelation 6 very closely matches Matthew 24 where Jesus describes the signs of His coming. Note that in Matthew 24, Jesus didn't mention the things that happen during the trumpet judgements. Why? Because the trumpet judgements happen after the 7th seal.

Revelation 12 takes us back to the birth of Christ, before showing another vantage point of what I think is the same events happening Note that in Revelation 14:14 we have Jesus coming in the clouds

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

The angels are sent out to harvest the earth, as in Matthew 24. First there is a reaping but what happens is not specified, but I think that's the wheat being gathered into the barns, the rapture. Then the second angel is told to reap, and those are put into the winepress of God's wrath. Then the 7 bowls/vials of wrath are poured out, just like after the 7th trumpet, there is given a sense of finality after the 7th vial. So I believe they are parallel.