Is Mary the mother of God?

ViaCrucis

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Yes Jesus is a part of God because He is the Son of God. Just like we are our parents' children but it doesn't make us them directly. Jesus still can work all of God's miracles being His Son but I don't believe that He created the universe anymore than I believe that the Holy Spirit (also a part of God) created the universe even though all three of them are still very important.

I think it is a very good idea that you look into studying the doctrine of the Trinity.

There are three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each Person is truly, fully, and entirely God. The Father is God. The Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

Not three gods, but one God. Because the Son and the Holy Spirit have their Being from the Father.

This is why in the Nicene Creed we confess that Jesus, the Son, is "homoousios" with the Father, literally "of the same Being", meaning that the Son is God even as the Father is God. Not two gods, but one and the same God. In the same way, we confess that the Holy Spirit is "Lord and giver of life" and "is worshiped and glorified with the Father and the Son". He is God, even as the Father and the Son are God.

One Essence, three Persons.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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April_Rose

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I think it is a very good idea that you look into studying the doctrine of the Trinity.

There are three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each Person is truly, fully, and entirely God. The Father is God. The Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

Not three gods, but one God. Because the Son and the Holy Spirit have their Being from the Father.

This is why in the Nicene Creed we confess that Jesus, the Son, is "homoousios" with the Father, literally "of the same Being", meaning that the Son is God even as the Father is God. Not two gods, but one and the same God. In the same way, we confess that the Holy Spirit is "Lord and giver of life" and "is worshiped and glorified with the Father and the Son". He is God, even as the Father and the Son are God.

One Essence, three Persons.

-CryptoLutheran









Well I think that I will be like @tampasteve and feel free to agree to disagree with you. We're both Christians with two entirely different views. So what? We both believe that Jesus died and rose again for our sins and that's the most important thing.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Well I think that I will be like @tampasteve and feel free to agree to disagree with you. We're both Christians with two entirely different views. So what? We both believe that Jesus died and rose again for our sins and that's the most important thing.

When it comes to the Trinity, it's a really important subject. You don't have to take my word on this, I would encourage you to discuss this with your pastor.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Salvadore

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Yes, Christ is God and Man and there never was never a time He was not God. It doesn't mean she gave origins to God but the since Christ is God see gave birth to God[/QUOTE

Why would The Father or Holy Spirit need a mother? I can understand why the Son would. I still would rather think of Mary as mother of Jesus, even though Jesus is part of the Godhead. So Mary is mother of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? I suppose that is correct even though all were present from the beginning except for Mary. I think of her as a vessel for God's time living shoulder to shoulder amongst the people. This is a fascinating discussion (IMO)
 
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Salvadore

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No one thinks she did. So non-sequitur.



No, it's a simple fact. Mary gave birth to God Incarnate.



St. Elizabeth, her cousin, however declares her to be "the mother of my Lord", that's Scripture.



That's exactly what it makes her. Just as it makes Joseph the foster-father of God. God was born of a virgin, God suffered on the cross, that's God there.

God chose Mary to be His mother when God took on flesh, become man.



It really does though. That's exactly what it means. It means that God was born. God, who is eternal and without beginning, became flesh, and was conceived and born a man. That's the Gospel.



No one thinks otherwise. But the Eternal Word, the very begotten of the Father, He who is God from all eternity, became a baby. Whose baby? Mary's baby.



Then you should be able to freely admit that God came down and was born of Mary.



Meaningless strawman. Nobody is suggesting we worship Mary. This has nothing to do with Mary, it has everything to do with Jesus.



Then the Person that Mary gave birth to, that Person is God? Yes? So Mary gave birth to God yes?



Did God die on the cross? Did God shed His blood for our sins? Yes or no?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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April_Rose

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Wow. That is heavy. God SENT his only Begotten Son. That is a difficult one to understand. Did the Trinity die on the cross?







No. Jesus did. God the Father sent Him. If He and the Father were exactly the same how could He have prayed to Him? They are similar but not exactly the same.
 
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Salvadore

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No. Jesus did. God the Father sent Him. If He and the Father were exactly the same how could He have prayed to Him? They are similar but not exactly the same
No. Jesus did. God the Father sent Him. If He and the Father were exactly the same how could He have prayed to Him? They are similar but not exactly the same.

So, Jesus was fully human and fully God from conception until he died on the cross? Did the Father separate from him and that is why Jesus cried out about being forsaken? God is omnipresent. Right?
 
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April_Rose

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So, Jesus was fully human and fully God from conception until he died on the cross? Did the Father separate from him and that is why Jesus cried out about being forsaken? God is omnipresent. Right?







God never really left Him. Jesus just felt like He did since all of our sins were poured onto Him. At least, that's what I was taught. God never leaves any of His children though,.. although sadly many have left Him.
 
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prodromos

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No. Jesus did. God the Father sent Him. If He and the Father were exactly the same how could He have prayed to Him? They are similar but not exactly the same.
What you appear to be describing is what Moslems accuse Christians of, Polytheism. They claim Christians worship multiple gods, not one God.

In truth, Christianity worships one God who is indivisible. God cannot be divided into parts as you have described. Jesus is not part of God, He is 100% God, just as the Father is 100% God and the Holy Spirit is 100% God. Christianity worships God who is three persons but still one God, not one God who appears sometimes as Father, sometimes as Son and sometimes as Holy Spirit.

There were many false ideas about God and Christ that people came up with in the early church and every one of them destroys the salvation narrative in some way, which is why the Church fought so hard to defend what had been taught by the Apostles.
 
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Salvadore

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Did God die on the cross?

Never mind. I am over-thinking. I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, but each person has a different function. I believe Jesus died on the cross.
 
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April_Rose

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What you appear to be describing is what Moslems accuse Christians of, Polytheism. They claim Christians worship multiple gods, not one God.

In truth, Christianity worships one God who is indivisible. God cannot be divided into parts as you have described. Jesus is not part of God, He is 100% God, just as the Father is 100% God and the Holy Spirit is 100% God. Christianity worships God who is three persons but still one God, not one God who appears sometimes as Father, sometimes as Son and sometimes as Holy Spirit.

There were many false ideas about God and Christ that people came up with in the early church and every one of them destroys the salvation narrative in some way, which is why the Church fought so hard to defend what had been taught by the Apostles.








I was taught that Jesus is the SON of God as a child in Sunday school so that's why I believe what I believe. If somebody is your son that means that they are your child and they come from you but they aren't you as they also have an identity all of their own. Though they can also get a lot of things from you and in this case Jesus had His Father's divine powers.
 
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coffee4u

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Is 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Mary is the sign!

rev 12 :1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars!

queen? Yes she has a crown!
Clothed with the sun, immaculate purity and holiness!

Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

The fact a virgin was pregnant and gave birth was a sign to the world that the saviour was coming/had come. The same way the star over the house the young child Jesus lived in was also a sign of the Messiah.
That has nothing to do with your claims that she lived a sinless life or was a perpetual virgin. She wasn't she gave Jesus brothers and Joseph was their father.

If a person is sinless they do not need a saviour.
Mary looked towards God as her saviour.
The only sinless person was Jesus because he is God the Son. By claiming Mary was sinless you make her equal to God.

Revelation 12 is not Mary, at the start of the verse it's Old Testament Israel. Mary was part of the nation but she wasn't by herself the Queen of heaven. Revelation 12 covers a lot of history and future history not just the birth of Christ.
This is a very good rundown and explanation of revelations 12. Who Are the Woman, Child and Dragon in Revelation 12?
 
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coffee4u

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Yes Jesus is a part of God because He is the Son of God. Just like we are our parents' children but it doesn't make us them directly. Jesus still can work all of God's miracles being His Son but I don't believe that He created the universe anymore than I believe that the Holy Spirit (also a part of God) created the universe even though all three of them are still very important.

Jesus did create the universe, all three parts of the Godhead were involved in the creation.

It was both through him and for him.
Colossians 1:16
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.


 
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prodromos

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So, Jesus was fully human and fully God from conception until he died on the cross? Did the Father separate from him and that is why Jesus cried out about being forsaken? God is omnipresent. Right?
Jesus quoted the beginning of Psalm 22. It contains a number of prophetic statements about Christ and is actually a Psalm of victory.

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Why art thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
O my God, I cry by day, but thou dost not answer;
and by night, but find no rest.

Yet thou art holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
In thee our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
To thee they cried, and were saved;
in thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.

But I am a worm, and no man;
scorned by men, and despised by the people.
All who see me mock at me,
they make mouths at me, they wag their heads;
“He committed his cause to the Lord; let him deliver him,
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”


Yet thou art he who took me from the womb;
thou didst keep me safe upon my mother’s breasts.
Upon thee was I cast from my birth,
and since my mother bore me thou hast been my God.
Be not far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is none to help.

Many bulls encompass me,
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.

I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax,
it is melted within my breast;
my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
thou dost lay me in the dust of death.

Yea, dogs are round about me;
a company of evildoers encircle me;
they have pierced my hands and feet—
I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
they divide my garments among them,
and for my raiment they cast lots.


But thou, O Lord, be not far off!
O thou my help, hasten to my aid!
Deliver my soul from the sword,
my life from the power of the dog!
Save me from the mouth of the lion,
my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen!

I will tell of thy name to my brethren;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee:
You who fear the Lord, praise him!
all you sons of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel!
For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted;
and he has not hid his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.

From thee comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the Lord!
May your hearts live for ever!

All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the Lord;
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before him.
For dominion belongs to the Lord,
and he rules over the nations.

Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
and he who cannot keep himself alive.
Posterity shall serve him;
men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn,
that he has wrought it.​
 
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coffee4u

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No one thinks she did. So non-sequitur.



No, it's a simple fact. Mary gave birth to God Incarnate.



St. Elizabeth, her cousin, however declares her to be "the mother of my Lord", that's Scripture.



That's exactly what it makes her. Just as it makes Joseph the foster-father of God. God was born of a virgin, God suffered on the cross, that's God there.

God chose Mary to be His mother when God took on flesh, become man.



It really does though. That's exactly what it means. It means that God was born. God, who is eternal and without beginning, became flesh, and was conceived and born a man. That's the Gospel.



No one thinks otherwise. But the Eternal Word, the very begotten of the Father, He who is God from all eternity, became a baby. Whose baby? Mary's baby.



Then you should be able to freely admit that God came down and was born of Mary.



Meaningless strawman. Nobody is suggesting we worship Mary. This has nothing to do with Mary, it has everything to do with Jesus.



Then the Person that Mary gave birth to, that Person is God? Yes? So Mary gave birth to God yes?



Did God die on the cross? Did God shed His blood for our sins? Yes or no?

-CryptoLutheran

No one objecting here is saying that Jesus is not God, nor are we dividing him.

The point you are missing is that God is not just Jesus; God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. By claiming Mary is the 'mother of God' you are claiming she is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit's mother. Do you now see what we are objecting to?

"Nobody is suggesting we worship Mary"

Really?

b4jesustoday"What things? Immaculate conception, sinless, purity, holiness, Queen of heaven receiving half of His kingdom"

Sounds like worship to me.
 
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prodromos

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If a person is sinless they do not need a saviour.
Babies who die in infancy need a savior just as much as a career criminal does. Both are slaves to to death, the result of Adam's sin. Jesus became man so that He could destroy death. If all He did was to take on our sins through His sacrifice on the cross, then we would still remain dead. His resurrection is what changes everything, and indeed the entirety of the Christian faith rests on the fact of His rising to life.
 
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solid_core

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Mary is the Theotokos, the God-bearer or the mother of God. She gave birth to a divine person. If we say she is not, then we are denying Christ's divinity which would be a serious theological error.
Did Christ become God because of her or did Christ become human because of her?

Which one is it? She did nothing extraordinary compared to other mothers in the world. She only received something extraordinary, but its not of her so she is not to be praised for it or even worshipped.
 
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The point you are missing is that God is not just Jesus; God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. By claiming Mary is the 'mother of God' you are claiming she is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit's mother. Do you now see what we are objecting to?
The context is clearly about Jesus, it always was and always will be. It requires willful ignorance to claim that "Mother of God" means mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. For over 1000 years after the council that called Mary "Theotokos", no one has ever had any confusion about who she was mother to. The leaders of the Reformation understood this, Anglicans and Lutherans still do, but every other Protestant denomination seems to check their brains at the door when it comes to this understanding.
 
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