Is Mary the mother of God?

[ViaCrucis]

No one objecting here is saying that Jesus is not God, nor are we dividing him.

The point you are missing is that God is not just Jesus; God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. By claiming Mary is the 'mother of God' you are claiming she is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit's mother. Do you now see what we are objecting to?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1

Does this mean that the Word was the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit? No.

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood." - Acts of the Apostles 20:28

Does this mean the blood of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? No.

"For in Him the whole fullness of Deity dwells bodily," - Colossians 2:9

Does this mean Jesus is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit? No.

"who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be exploited," - Philippians 2:6

In the form of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit? No.

We say Jesus is God, the Son is God, we say these things all the time, and Scripture itself says these things. And we recognize consistently that it does not mean that Jesus is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit; but that Jesus, as the Son, is truly God. We know what this means, we say these things all the time without any confusion.

So now to pretend as though there is confusion by saying that Mary's Child is God is simply being disingenuous.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[RushMAN]

Yes Jesus is a part of God because He is the Son of God. Just like we are our parents' children but it doesn't make us them directly. Jesus still can work all of God's miracles being His Son but I don't believe that He created the universe anymore than I believe that the Holy Spirit (also a part of God) created the universe even though all three of them are still very important.

When it comes to the Trinity, it's a really important subject. You don't have to take my word on this, I would encourage you to discuss this with your pastor.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed it is very important. So important there is a creed about the Trinity.Here it is, the Athanasian Creed:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

----------

A person must believe in the Trinity to be saved, not understand it maybe but belie in the Trinity imho

 

[coffee4u]

Of course Mary and the Saints are alive. They are amongst the living in heaven.

So she didn't die but God caught her up to heaven like Elisha and Elijah?

 

[April_Rose]

Indeed it is very important. So important there is a creed about the Trinity.Here it is, the Athanasian Creed:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

----------

A person must believe in the Trinity to be saved, not understand it maybe but belie in the Trinity imho

Not sure what all that means but I do believe in the Trinity. I just don't share the same views that you do. Anyways, I believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God and died on the cross for our sins and rose again three days later because He loves me. I thought that that's what was all that was required for guaranteed salvation.

 

[coffee4u]

2 Chronicles 6:41
Now therefore arise, O Lord God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O Lord God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.
Jesus ascended to His resting place and Mary was assumed into heaven body and soul!

Psalm 9:14
That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation.

Psalm 35:9
And my soul shall be joyful in the Lord: it shall rejoice in his salvation.

Mary is not mentioned in any of those verses.

Psalm 132:

13 For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.

14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.

16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.

17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed.

Zion a type of Mary the habitation of the Lord!

Zion is a synonym for Jerusalem and Israel, not Mary.

Ex 3:5 Holy ground, the holy mountain a type of Mary!
Exodus 3:5
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”

This was God speaking to Moses, what does that have to do with Mary? There is no mention or connection to Mary. So basically you pluck out any verse you like and say its about Mary.

Song of Solomon 4:4

Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang athousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men.

I have no idea why you are quoting this.

 

[RushMAN]

Not sure what all that means but I do believe in the Trinity. I just don't share the same views that you do. Anyways, I believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God and died on the cross for our sins and rose again three days later because He loves me. I thought that that's what was all that was required for guaranteed salvation.

The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same God. All three persin's are the same God that created the universe, and all of us. Believing is just a start but you must also have right belief to be a Christian. If you take your time you can understand the creed, it was because there were people in the Church saying somethings like you. The creed in my post was penned by St. Athanasius to show that what you think is not accurate but the all three are the exact same God and all have the same power. John 1:1-2 states "Before anything else existed, there was Christ, with God. He has always been alive and is himself God."

It is good you believe in the Trinity but it is good you study the subject because it is very important to know that all three prson's of the Trinity are the one same God. The same God that made you and the universe

 

[April_Rose]

The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same God. All three persin's are the same God that created the universe, and all of us. Believing is just a start but you must also have right belief to be a Christian. If you take your time you can understand the creed, it was because there were people in the Church saying somethings like you. The creed in my post was penned by St. Athanasius to show that what you think is not accurate but the all three are the exact same God and all have the same power. John 1:1-2 states "Before anything else existed, there was Christ, with God. He has always been alive and is himself God."

It is good you believe in the Trinity but it is good you study the subject because it is very important to know that all three prson's of the Trinity are the one same God. The same God that made you and the universe

I am a Christian. I love Jesus. I believe all that I said that I believe and that He is the Son of God. I'm allowed to believe what I want to about the trinity and now you are offending me by telling me that I'm not a Christian just because I don't believe the same you do about the Trinity as it was what I had been taught ever since I was a little girl. So I think I will just go ahead and leave our conversation here.

 

[coffee4u]

For the record I'm not either. I still look to Jesus as God, but I don't look to Him as my creator because that was the task of the Father.

The Bible is very clear that God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the creator.
John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Colossians 1:15-16
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

I'm sorry I realize that the Catholics are going to get mad at me for this one but I do not believe this. A baby cannot possibly need a Savior because a baby has done no wrong and knows no sin so I do not believe in infant baptism as it also contradicts God's given right of free will and following the Lord should be a choice and not be forced. An infant cannot possibly make this choice and doesn't even have a concept of what it means to be a Christian.

I agree. The Catholics and Orthodox can think what they like, I'm sure they are already quite angry that I do not acknowledge Mary as a sinless virgin living shrine. I believe she was favoured and blessed but struggled with sin and died as we all do. I believe in Sola scriptura and no one has produced any scripture saying that Mary was all of those things all her life. While I am not officially a Baptist, it is one of the churches that I attend so you can guess my stance on baptism from that.

Well I don't worship her but she is the mother of Jesus and even He knew that as a man she had authority over Him which is why He always obeyed her.

Yes Mary was favoured and blessed and I don't think any Christian thinks otherwise, but favoured and blessed is a long way from sinless, perpetual virgin and living shrine.
He obeyed her as a child since Jesus never sinned and obeying one's parents is very important. Notice though at 12 he told them he must be about his fathers business when they asked him why he had not stayed with them. God's laws and ways were higher than his parent's ways.
41 His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42 And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem according to the custom of the feast. 43 When they had finished the days, as they returned, the Boy Jesus lingered behind in Jerusalem. And Joseph and His mother did not know it; 44 but supposing Him to have been in the company, they went a day’s journey, and sought Him among their relatives and acquaintances. 45 So when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking Him. 46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers. 48 So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously.”


49 And He said to them, “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” 50 But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them.

There are other verses that indicate that neither Joseph or Mary fully understood who Jesus really was and there are many verses about his brother's which nixes the idea of her being a perpetual virgin. Like all of us Mary had her flaws. Setting her up as some sinless paragon is wrong.

I am done here since they believe what they believe regardless of scripture.

 

[RushMAN]

I am a Christian. I love Jesus. I believe all that I said that I believe and that He is the Son of God. I'm allowed to believe what I want to about the trinity and now you are offending me by telling me that I'm not a Christian just because I don't believe the same you do about the Trinity as it was what I had been taught ever since I was a little girl. So I think I will just go ahead and leave our conversation here.

I never said you were not a Christian, nor can I on this site. Christianity is not relative and we can't believe anything we want about it, there are set beliefs in Christianity. It's like the creed that you and all of us agreed to joining this site, it is foundational and not up for debate. In Christianity I can't say I believe this and someone else believes that, there is only one truth. Don't think for one minute I was saying or implying your not a Christian because I am not.

Here is what I am saying - Christianity is absolute not relative in beliefs but you don't have to understand everything

 

[April_Rose]

Well alright but Jesus never actually disobeyed His parents when He went to go preach at the temple, and He obeyed when they told Him that it was time to go back with them. Also those verses that you posted were talking about the Father not the Son. Do you see the name Jesus anywhere? I am done with this though because we've gotten WAY off topic. So I'm going to start a new one about this instead because I'm tired of this silliness.

 

[RushMAN]

Well alright but Jesus never actually disobeyed His parents when He went to go preach at the temple, and He obeyed when they told Him that it was time to go back with them. Also those verses that you posted were talking about the Father not the Son. Do you see the name Jesus anywhere? I am done with this though because we've gotten WAY off topic. So I'm going to start a new one about this instead because I'm tired of this silliness.

Are you talking to me?

 

[April_Rose]

Are you talking to me?

No,.. I was talking to @coffee4u but I wasn't sure whether or not they would respond to my quote and I'm sorry I didn't mean to get mad at you but I'm just frustrated right now is all.

 

[RushMAN]

No,.. I was talking to @coffee4u but I wasn't sure whether or not they would respond to my quote and I'm sorry I didn't mean to get mad at you but I'm just frustrated right now is all.

I am sorry too for my part in your frustration. Your a good poster and I like your threads and I don't want to make you upset.

 

[coffee4u]

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1

Does this mean that the Word was the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit? No.

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood." - Acts of the Apostles 20:28

Does this mean the blood of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? No.

"For in Him the whole fullness of Deity dwells bodily," - Colossians 2:9

Does this mean Jesus is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit? No.

"who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be exploited," - Philippians 2:6

In the form of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit? No.

We say Jesus is God, the Son is God, we say these things all the time, and Scripture itself says these things. And we recognize consistently that it does not mean that Jesus is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit; but that Jesus, as the Son, is truly God. We know what this means, we say these things all the time without any confusion.

So now to pretend as though there is confusion by saying that Mary's Child is God is simply being disingenuous.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't believe any person can fully understand the trinity, just that it is. This argument is not about the Trinity but how Mary is viewed. I already said my peace on that last post. As a Baptist leaning protestant, I won't change my mind, not unless clear scripture showing all those claims can be shown.

 

[coffee4u]

Well alright but Jesus never actually disobeyed His parents when He went to go preach at the temple, and He obeyed when they told Him that it was time to go back with them. Also those verses that you posted were talking about the Father not the Son. Do you see the name Jesus anywhere? I am done with this though because we've gotten WAY off topic. So I'm going to start a new one about this instead because I'm tired of this silliness.

Those verses are about Jesus, that is well established. There are plenty of Bible studies you can read on Jesus being the Word and the creator. I don't think any church disputes that, not even those who hold to theistic evolution.

The same way all recognized churches hold to the Trinity and Jesus as God who died for our sins. I think everyone can agree to that. Outside of that lay the cults.

 

[prodromos]

I am done here since they believe what they believe regardless of scripture.

Everything the Orthodox believe is consistent with Scripture.

 

[April_Rose]

I am sorry too for my part in your frustration. Your a good poster and I like your threads and I don't want to make you upset.

Thank you I appreciate that.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't believe any person can fully understand the trinity, just that it is. This argument is not about the Trinity but how Mary is viewed. I already said my peace on that last post. As a Baptist leaning protestant, I won't change my mind, not unless clear scripture showing all those claims can be shown.

Any properly, seminary trained Baptist pastor would affirm the things being said in this thread. So the "I'm a Baptist" or "I'm Baptist leaning" isn't an excuse. This isn't some evil spooky "Popish" ploy. This really is the most basic of the basics in Christian teaching. Any seminary worth anything is going to instill and teach these things, regardless of denominational affiliation.

This isn't "Catholic" teaching. Protestants believe this. It is universal Christian teaching.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[James A]

"Mother of God" is a title. She is honored as Bearer of God by Catholic and Orthodox churches.

 

[coffee4u]

Everything the Orthodox believe is consistent with Scripture.

Any properly, seminary trained Baptist pastor would affirm the things being said in this thread. So the "I'm a Baptist" or "I'm Baptist leaning" isn't an excuse. This isn't some evil spooky "Popish" ploy. This really is the most basic of the basics in Christian teaching. Any seminary worth anything is going to instill and teach these things, regardless of denominational affiliation.

This isn't "Catholic" teaching. Protestants believe this. It is universal Christian teaching.

-CryptoLutheran

So I will ask one last time for scripture showing what has been claimed about Mary on this thread.

Perpetual virginity
Sinless
Never died

No church that I have ever attended has ever taught any of this. I would be very interested to find a Baptist minster (Australian Baptist I don't claim to know about American Baptists) that believes any one of those claims. Pretty sure if you asked on CF in the Baptist area they won't either.