My `homework` on Daniel`s 4 beasts.

[Timtofly]

Why didn't you read posts 134 and 126?

You never gave your answers, I did look. That is why I am curious how you have been translated without dying. I cannot put your answer in your own post. I would not have asked if you had already answered. Now I am going to have to look at my own post to see what I asked, because you still have not answered my questions.

 

[jgr]

You never gave your answers, I did look. That is why I am curious how you have been translated without dying. I cannot put your answer in your own post. I would not have asked if you had already answered. Now I am going to have to look at my own post to see what I asked, because you still have not answered my questions.

I said that you'd find the answers to your questions in the Scriptures I cited. Which answers didn't you find?

In Colossians 1:12-13, Paul declared that "us", which included himself, had been translated into the kingdom.

And he hadn't died yet.

I've been translated into the kingdom.

And I haven't died yet.

 

[Timtofly]

I said that you'd find the answers to your questions in the Scriptures I cited. Which answers didn't you find?

In Colossians 1:12-13, Paul declared that "us", which included himself, had been translated into the kingdom.

And he hadn't died yet.

I've been translated into the kingdom.

And I haven't died yet.

The only answer I can assume is that this is an earthly kingdom. So no, you have not answered my questions. I cannot guess what you are thinking.

Paul is in heaven though, or not. He has been since he died, unless you think he is asleep in the ground like all else here. So he went from the power of darkness on earth, to the grave where Christ is? Because all posters post verses. I have read the Bible. I have not been translated, because I am physically in a body that has a sin nature that is crucified daily. It dies, but does not stay dead. The power of darkness is still real.

But spiritually I am alive in Christ, but the kingdom is divided, because no one seems to take the Bible literally any more. Or else I have yet to meet any one actually in the kingdom online yet. Even you tell me to guess the answers to my own questions.

 

[jgr]

Paul is in heaven though, or not. He has been since he died, unless you think he is asleep in the ground like all else here.

Paul was physically alive when he declared that he had been translated. So the translation of which he speaks is spiritual, not physical; consistent with the kingdom to which he refers, which is spiritual, not physical.

I have not been translated, because I am physically in a body that has a sin nature that is crucified daily.

So you haven't experienced the spiritual translation of Colossians 1:12-13?

Even you tell me to guess the answers to my own questions.

I tell you to refer to Scripture for the answers to your questions.

 

[Timtofly]

Paul was physically alive when he declared that he had been translated. So the translation of which he speaks is spiritual, not physical; consistent with the kingdom to which he refers, which is spiritual, not physical.
So you haven't experienced the spiritual translation of Colossians 1:12-13?
I tell you to refer to Scripture for the answers to your questions.

See, it was not hard, you finally called it a spiritual translation. Well the translation is by faith and trust. It is not fully realized, until completed in the 5th and 6th seals. It seems obvious to me that the dead in Christ have realized their incorruptible bodies and are with Christ now. Others have different and confusing interpretations of the biblical text. The dead in Christ are literally translated now into the kingdom. God does not make them wait in the ground. Even in the OT, all were in Abraham's bosom as one group. They were not just scattered all over the earth in bits and pieces.

 

[Douggg]

So just show that from Scripture, and sho wthat Israel will Accept his self appointed kingship and you win. Not opinion or some allegorical interpretation, but Scripture!

The person will be anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet, but it will be because the Jews will think he is the messiah. The Jews every year set a place at their passover meal for Elijah, because they believe Elijah will return and prepare the nation for the messianic age.

The Jews also believe that the messiah has to be anointed the King of Israel by a known prophet. So expecting Elijah, a known prophet, and the false prophet in Revelation 13 calls down fire from heaven like Elijah did, I am concluding false prophet will present himself as Elijah.

For my view to be validated, the little horn person will have to be a Jew. We can wait until that person shows up. Right now, I don't see any Jews in the public eye - with that potential.

The concept of the Anti-christ is built upon the concept of "the" Christ as being the promised King of Israel descended from David.

 

[jgr]

See, it was not hard, you finally called it a spiritual translation.

I thought it was completely self-evident that it is a spiritual translation.

Well the translation is by faith and trust.

Totally true.

It is not fully realized, until completed in the 5th and 6th seals.

It is fully realized in anyone the moment they place their faith and trust in Christ for salvation. Colossians 1:12-13 says so, expressing it in the past tense ("hath translated').

 

[Marilyn C]

The bible with its description of the fourth kingdom clearly shows that rome was simply the start of teh fourth kingdom which continues till this day!

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

These are the description of the fourth beast as declared in Gods Word. If you can show that all these things have come to pass by the time of the end of the Roman Empire, then I would agree with you!

But Jesus hasn't returned and we are not in possession of the kingdom- so the fourth beast is still ongoing!

Hi nolidad,

I see that the Roman Empire has gone and that God judged it centuries ago.

So how do you still see it ruling?

 

[Marilyn C]

Well there is some argument about who the nations are. I think Turkey has to be included.

Anyway, the 7 years follow Gog/Magog. So the armies of those muslim nations will all be destroyed before the 7 years begin. The person who becomes the Antichrist doesn't do so until after Gog/Magog.

The person who becomes the Antichrist comes from north and west of Israel in Daniel 8:9. Where does that put your muslim Antichrist theory ? I don't think it is going to work out, Marilyn.

But the Sunni Islamic nations are NOT in the Russian war.

And their leader is the Assyrian, the king of the North, (of Israel). That is the region of ancient Assyria - Iraq, Syria & Jordan. These 3 will be the power base of their leader who starts off in a quiet way and then gradually builds credibility by deception.

Those 3 nations were actually one region until after WW1 the allies divided them up into French quarter, (Syria) and an English one, (Iraq). They drew a `Line in the sand` and divided those groups up. That is part of the struggle they have had over the past decade or so to get rid of their overseerers.

 

[Douggg]

But the Sunni Islamic nations are NOT in the Russian war.

And their leader is the Assyrian, the king of the North, (of Israel). That is the region of ancient Assyria - Iraq, Syria & Jordan. These 3 will be the power base of their leader who starts off in a quiet way and then gradually builds credibility by deception.

Those 3 nations were actually one region until after WW1 the allies divided them up into French quarter, (Syria) and an English one, (Iraq). They drew a `Line in the sand` and divided those groups up. That is part of the struggle they have had over the past decade or so to get rid of their overseerers.

Some people seem to think Togarmah is Turkey and possibly Gomer.

 

[Marilyn C]

Some people seem to think Togarmah is Turkey and possibly Gomer.

Yes they do. However `Togarmah,` is from the far north, as is `Gomer.` They are from the former Soviet Union nations that still align with Russia. (Ez. 38: 6)

`Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the FAR NORTH and all its troops...` (Ez. 38: 6)

 

[Douggg]

Yes they do. However `Togarmah,` is from the far north, as is `Gomer.` They are from the former Soviet Union nations that still align with Russia. (Ez. 38: 6)

`Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the FAR NORTH and all its troops...` (Ez. 38: 6)

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.


Marilyn, the person who becomes the Antichrist does so coming from north and west of Israel. That does not fit with someone coming from Syria, Iraq, Jordan.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

It is not even matching Turkey. Turkey is mostly north of Israel.

 

[Marilyn C]

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.


Marilyn, the person who becomes the Antichrist does so coming from north and west of Israel. That does not fit with someone coming from Syria, Iraq, Jordan.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

It is not even matching Turkey. Turkey is mostly north of Israel.

Hi Douggg,

Good map there. Now let`s see what God`s word says - `The King of the North.` (Dan. 11: 40)


The actual location from where this leader will make his initial appearance is not left to speculation or assumption. It has been predetermined precisely through the prophet Daniel (11). In this chapter was predicted the course of world history involving continual warfare between two great Empires, the legacy of Alexander the Great.

The Seleucid dynasty identified as Assyria, the King of the North, and the Ptolomaic Dynasty, the King of the South, i.e. Egypt including Libya. Daniel (11:40) is finally directed to jump two thousand years until the "Time of the End". These two areas in the Middle East would again return to the focus of world attention. Each contending for key leadership of the Arab Countries, to be recognised as the Moslem Messiah.

Already we have witnessed Nasser of Egypt and Qaddafi of Libya striving for this position. God predicted they would fail, and fail they did. Daniel (11:35-43) foretells that eventually, at the "Appointed Time", the King of the North will prevail. Herein is established, beyond doubt or controversy, that the final leader of Islam, the Moslem Messiah, will unmistakably appear in the area of the ancient Assyrian Empire; The King of the North. In fact his nationality is specifically confirmed as "The Assyrian" by the prophets Isaiah (10:24 & 31:8) and Micah (5:5).

Ancient Assyria consisted of the present-day nations of Syria, Jordan and Iraq. Quite specifically, it is thus documented that, it is from this composite area that this leader will come. These are the three nations who will obviously consolidate in the foreseeable future as the power-base for the forceful Charismatic Leader of Islam.


Watch - Syria, Jordan and Iraq!

(ref. `Fires before the Dawn.` a book by my uncle, former President of the Apostolic Church in Australia.)

 

[nolidad]

The person will be anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet, but it will be because the Jews will think he is the messiah. The Jews every year set a place at their passover meal for Elijah, because they believe Elijah will return and prepare the nation for the messianic age.

The Jews also believe that the messiah has to be anointed the King of Israel by a known prophet. So expecting Elijah, a known prophet, and the false prophet in Revelation 13 calls down fire from heaven like Elijah did, I am concluding false prophet will present himself as Elijah.

Well you are concluding, but the Bible doesn't. There is no Scripture saying the XXXX is a Jew . He is a gentile ruler (the 112th horn who breaks off three horns)

Yes Elijah is always the invisible guest at the Seder.

For my view to be validated, the little horn person will have to be a Jew. We can wait until that person shows up. Right now, I don't see any Jews in the public eye - with that potential.

The concept of the Anti-christ is built upon the concept of "the" Christ as being the promised King of Israel descended from David.

Well at least you are honest enough to say it is your view! For the Bible does not defend it directly or even indirectly. It is gleaned by taking passages and looking at them in an allegorical way.

 

[Douggg]

Well you are concluding, but the Bible doesn't. There is no Scripture saying the XXXX is a Jew . He is a gentile ruler (the 112th horn who breaks off three horns)

Yes Elijah is always the invisible guest at the Seder.

The scripture does not directly say that XXXX is a Jew. Being the ruler of a gentile kingdom though - does not exclude that the person as possibly being a Jew. Like being the head of the EU for example.

These verses would not apply to Satan nor a gentile rule... being a king of a nation and likened to an abominable branch, coupled with destroying his land, and his people... is an indicator that he is descended from David, Jesus being the righteous branch, and his land - Israel, and his people - the Jews - which he was king over.

Isaiah 14:
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Well at least you are honest enough to say it is your view! For the Bible does not defend it directly or even indirectly. It is gleaned by taking passages and looking at them in an allegorical way.

Well, although I cannot say even what year the little horn person comes to power, I don't think that it is that far away. At least some time before the end of 2030. Could be very soon.

(not allegorical btw, that is something tribulation signs does to every passage in the bible it seems)

 

[Douggg]

Hi Douggg,

Good map there. Now let`s see what God`s word says - `The King of the North.` (Dan. 11: 40)


The actual location from where this leader will make his initial appearance is not left to speculation or assumption. It has been predetermined precisely through the prophet Daniel (11). In this chapter was predicted the course of world history involving continual warfare between two great Empires, the legacy of Alexander the Great.

The Seleucid dynasty identified as Assyria, the King of the North, and the Ptolomaic Dynasty, the King of the South, i.e. Egypt including Libya. Daniel (11:40) is finally directed to jump two thousand years until the "Time of the End". These two areas in the Middle East would again return to the focus of world attention. Each contending for key leadership of the Arab Countries, to be recognised as the Moslem Messiah.

Already we have witnessed Nasser of Egypt and Qaddafi of Libya striving for this position. God predicted they would fail, and fail they did. Daniel (11:35-43) foretells that eventually, at the "Appointed Time", the King of the North will prevail. Herein is established, beyond doubt or controversy, that the final leader of Islam, the Moslem Messiah, will unmistakably appear in the area of the ancient Assyrian Empire; The King of the North. In fact his nationality is specifically confirmed as "The Assyrian" by the prophets Isaiah (10:24 & 31:8) and Micah (5:5).

Ancient Assyria consisted of the present-day nations of Syria, Jordan and Iraq. Quite specifically, it is thus documented that, it is from this composite area that this leader will come. These are the three nations who will obviously consolidate in the foreseeable future as the power-base for the forceful Charismatic Leader of Islam.


Watch - Syria, Jordan and Iraq!

(ref. `Fires before the Dawn.` a book by my uncle, former President of the Apostolic Church in Australia.)

Hi Marilyn,

But there is still the issue of Daniel 8:9 coming from north and west of Israel. Syria, Jordan, and Iraq don't fit.

 

[nolidad]

The scripture does not directly say that XXXX is a Jew. Being the ruler of a gentile kingdom though - does not exclude that the person as possibly being a Jew. Like being the head of the EU for example.

These verses would not apply to Satan nor a gentile rule... being a king of a nation and likened to an abominable branch, coupled with destroying his land, and his people... is an indicator that he is descended from David, Jesus being the righteous branch, and his land - Israel, and his people - the Jews - which he was king over.

so the bible doesn't say XXXX is a Jew but you conclude he will be one???????

The bible doesn't say he will be anointed king of Israel but you conclude he will????????

These verses would not apply to Satan nor a gentile rule... being a king of a nation and likened to an abominable branch, coupled with destroying his land, and his people... is an indicator that he is descended from David, Jesus being the righteous branch, and his land - Israel, and his people - the Jews - which he was king over.

Isaiah 14:
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Says you alone!

Here is Is. 14 th ekey passage:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

All of these are referring back to Lucifer! What you do not see is the language used and how things were spoken by Jews in these kind of laments!

YOu cannot shew where there is a break from the lament of Lucifer and then going to XXXX

Well, although I cannot say even what year the little horn person comes to power, I don't think that it is that far away. At least some time before the end of 2030. Could be very soon.

(not allegorical btw, that is something tribulation signs does to every passage in the bible it seems)

You do allegorize scriptures greatly! I have taught eschatology for over 35 years and I have learned that when Scripture is not definitie I am not! When I offer an opinion I clearly say so and if asked defend why I hold my opinioon. And my opinion can be 0-100% wrong ! Yopu are making declarations about teh identity of teh antrichrist because the Scriptures say nothing to defend your position! that is a new one on me!

XXXX is the physical son of Satan and a woman from Rome. what time of Rome could be Daniel, the time Jesus walked the earth or the end days. We have to wait to see. And as for 2030? I would like it to be but we could still need to endure for another generation or two (though I personally don't believe it). The world stage still needs several prophecies that must come to pass before the 70th week of Daniel can commence.

 

[Douggg]

You do allegorize scriptures greatly! I have taught eschatology for over 35 years and I have learned that when Scripture is not definitie I am not! When I offer an opinion I clearly say so and if asked defend why I hold my opinioon. And my opinion can be 0-100% wrong ! Yopu are making declarations about teh identity of teh antrichrist because the Scriptures say nothing to defend your position! that is a new one on me!

An allegory to me is like a short story to make a point or mean something else. A metaphor would just be a word or a short group of words to represent something else, having the characteristics of the metaphor word. Like the sword in Jesus's mouth - that would be a metaphor.

Differently, Revelation 18, the fall of Babylon the great, the verses that follow about the fall of the great trading city is story, an allegory, about how quickly and permanently Babylon the great will fall.

"Babylon the great" itself is a code name, like the prince of Tyre, and the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28. Babylon the great is the kingdom of Satan and his third of the angels that have held sway over nations and the affairs of me.

so the bible doesn't say XXXX is a Jew but you conclude he will be one???????

The bible doesn't say he will be anointed king of Israel but you conclude he will????????

What I think you should do is look at the evidence instead of attacking me. I wrote that the bible does not "directly" state that XXXX will be a jew. The bible doesn't "directly" say that XXXX will anointed the King of Israel. But evidence shows that he will.

Here is Is. 14 th ekey passage:

You left off verse 20 in your quote, the one about destroying his land and slaying his people..

The transition from Satan to XXXX, what particular verse is not the issue, it could be either verse 14 or 15. Verse 16 is definitely not about Satan, as it is referring to a man in that verse.


Isaiah 14:
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.


Satan does not fit those verses, and it would not make sense for the person to be a gentile king.

 

[Timtofly]

But the Sunni Islamic nations are NOT in the Russian war.

And their leader is the Assyrian, the king of the North, (of Israel). That is the region of ancient Assyria - Iraq, Syria & Jordan. These 3 will be the power base of their leader who starts off in a quiet way and then gradually builds credibility by deception.

Those 3 nations were actually one region until after WW1 the allies divided them up into French quarter, (Syria) and an English one, (Iraq). They drew a `Line in the sand` and divided those groups up. That is part of the struggle they have had over the past decade or so to get rid of their overseerers.

Syria, Jordan, and Iraq are part of the inheritance promised Abraham. Syria is fast becoming a desolation or no man's land of a drawn battle zone. Jordan is currently at peace with Israel. Iraq is neutral, but I doubt it will join with Iran.

It is Turkey, Iran, who will convince Russia to back them against Israel. Turkey wants more of the riches to it's south, not to mention they want control over all Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Jordan. They want their own access to the Persian Gulf and southern Oceans. Turkey could be the wild card kingdom. The product of Persian, Greek, Roman, and the failed Revived Roman/European empires.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

But there is still the issue of Daniel 8:9 coming from north and west of Israel. Syria, Jordan, and Iraq don't fit.

Hi Douggg,
`
`And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great to wards the south, towards the east, and towards the Glorious land.` (Dan. 8: 9)

We see in the previous verse that this person came from the region of the Seleucid dynasty (the legacy of Alexander). He then goes on to extend `south, east & towards Israel.`