Re-baptism vs. Chrismation

[SingularityOne]

I heard Fr. Peter Heers respond to a question saying that are-baptism is needed for all those outside the Orthodox Church and that Chrismation is psuedo-oeconomia (not valid).

Being obedient to one’s bishop is important, but he recommended being re-baptised.

What is the consensus here?

 

[archer75]

Bishop: Do X in this instance.
Priest: In this instance, we should do X.
Candidate: Cool.

 

[archer75]

Further, the ROC, now thought of as so conservative in some matters, used to receive Catholics (and maybe Lutherans or Anglicans?) without even Chrismation, at least sometimes. And maybe still does? Plenty of converts have been received through Confession and Communion.

Even now, RC priests are usually received by vesting.

 

[SingularityOne]

Bishop: Do X in this instance.
Priest: In this instance, we should do X.
Candidate: Cool.

Agreed. But, isn't that blind obedience?

 

[SingularityOne]

Further, the ROC, now thought of as so conservative in some matters, used to receive Catholics (and maybe Lutherans or Anglicans?) without even Chrismation, at least sometimes. Plenty of converts were received through Confession and Communion.

Interesting... I didn't know that.

 

[archer75]

Agreed. But, isn't that blind obedience?

If they told you to deface an icon or mistreat someone, then yes. But obedience to them re: your own reception is appropriate.

Plus, of course you can ask a clarifying question. "Cool, what's the reason for doing it that way?"

 

[SingularityOne]

If they told you to deface an icon or mistreat someone, then yes. But obedience to them re: your own reception is appropriate.

Plus, of course you can ask a clarifying question. "Cool, what's the reason for doing it that way?"

Yeah, this makes sense. He just also said that if I want to become an Athonite Monk (not that that's on my agenda as of now, lol) they would most likely are-baptize me.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

I was received by baptism/chrismation ~2 years after my first baptism in the non-denominational church I started out at. Mind you, I’m GOA. Just my daughter, who at the time would’ve been 6 was being received into the Church with me. My priest didn’t object to my rebaptism, nor did I receive objections from the Metropolis. So, I don’t know. Maybe it’s different for some areas.

I have heard it is a modern economia to only receive by chrismation (barring you weren’t a Jehovas Witness prior to conversion) because modern people are especially weak and prefer not to get wet twice, but who knows.

My baptism was COLD . We were received on the presentation of the Lord into the temple (Feb 2) and the Church at the time had an old heating system.

If there’s a theological reason why we shouldn’t rebaptize, I’ve not heard one except for ecumenical reasons (which I don’t think is theological, anyway). I’m curious as well.

I understand chrismation only if you’re coming from Rome, but a lot modern Protestant denomination have so many unintentionally heretical Christology running rampant throughout, that even if they baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that it’s possible that their God is actually a modalist view, or a Nestorian Christ. Others might be outright Gnostics. You never know with Pastor Jim. He’s like a box of chocolates.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

 

[SingularityOne]

I was received by baptism/chrismation ~2 years after my first baptism in the non-denominational church I started out at. Mind you, I’m GOA. Just my daughter, who at the time would’ve been 6 was being received into the Church with me. My priest didn’t object to my rebaptism, nor did I receive objections from the Metropolis. So, I don’t know. Maybe it’s different for some areas.

I have heard it is a modern economia to only receive by chrismation (barring you weren’t a Jehovas Witness prior to conversion) because modern people are especially weak and prefer not to get wet twice, but who knows.

My baptism was COLD . We were received on the presentation of the Lord into the temple (Feb 2) and the Church at the time had an old heating system.

If there’s a theological reason why we shouldn’t rebaptize, I’ve not heard one except for ecumenical reasons (which I don’t think is theological, anyway). I’m curious as well.

I'm GOA too. But, it's interesting it was different between you and I.

I've heard that it's more about the assumption behind the oeconomia considering it's an innovation and not something that has always been done. It assumes that there is divine grace outside the Church. The Orthodox Church is the Church and no other. But, that’s what I've heard.

I do know that some Saints have been Chrosmated into the Church and didn't get rebaptized, so I do wonder about Fr. Peter’s strictness on it.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

I'm GOA too. But, it's interesting it was different between you and I.

I've heard that it's more about the assumption behind the oeconomia considering it's an innovation and not something that has always been done. It assumes that there is divine grace outside the Church. The Orthodox Church is the Church and no other. But, that’s what I've heard.

I do know that some Saints have been Chrosmated into the Church and didn't get rebaptized, so I do wonder about Fr. Peter’s strictness on it.

Like I said. I’m not sure. Part of the reason I wanted to rebaptize was to encourage my daughter not to be afraid, and also that I wanted the whole shebang. Is it up to the person being baptized or the one doing the baptism? I don’t know. I edited the above post to add further thoughts.

 

[rusmeister]

I was received via chrismation into the OCA, having been baptized once as a baby Catholic, and twice as a boy - Baptist.

In general, I believe God blesses our obedience. Salvation is not magic. The sacraments aren’t magic. I think that if a bishop decides that the baptism was sufficiently traditional to align with ours, and that chrismation is good enough, it doesn’t really matter, from our standpoint, if he’s technically wrong. God is capable of saving us even through our technical screw-ups. It’s like receiving Holy Communion from a drunken priest living in sin when you have no clue. You’ve done what you’re supposed to. Confessed and repented of your sins and prepared yourself as best you could. I don’t think God will deny His grace because the priest or bishop screwed up.

Obedience is a virtue, and if we are obeying the right authority, blind obedience is an even greater virtue. But it remains a virtue, as long as we are striving to obey Christ as best we can.

 

[Platina]

Are you sure you heard Fr. Peter correctly? He definitely supports baptizing all converts, but I've had personal conversations with him about the Church's ability to exercise economia. I could imagine him saying economia is being abused, but not that it is outright invalid all the time.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Are you sure you heard Fr. Peter correctly? He definitely supports baptizing all converts, but I've had personal conversations with him about the Church's ability to exercise economia. I could imagine him saying economia is being abused, but not that it is outright invalid all the time.

agreed. he spoke at St Tikhon's and wasn't anti-chrismation. he spoke to Dr David Ford at length about it, and Dr David was received by chrismation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I heard Fr. Peter Heers respond to a question saying that are-baptism is needed for all those outside the Orthodox Church and that Chrismation is psuedo-oeconomia (not valid).

Being obedient to one’s bishop is important, but he recommended being re-baptised.

What is the consensus here?

Fr Seraphim Rose was received by chrismation by St John Maximovitch.

 

[peregrinus2017]

Trusting your bishop to do what's right is a good policy in this case I think. Though if one is to be baptized in the Orthodox Church, regardless of what has been done before, I have a hard time thinking of it as a re-baptism.

 

[archer75]

I was received by baptism/chrismation ~2 years after my first baptism in the non-denominational church I started out at. Mind you, I’m GOA. Just my daughter, who at the time would’ve been 6 was being received into the Church with me. My priest didn’t object to my rebaptism, nor did I receive objections from the Metropolis. So, I don’t know. Maybe it’s different for some areas.

I have heard it is a modern economia to only receive by chrismation (barring you weren’t a Jehovas Witness prior to conversion) because modern people are especially weak and prefer not to get wet twice, but who knows.

My baptism was COLD . We were received on the presentation of the Lord into the temple (Feb 2) and the Church at the time had an old heating system.

If there’s a theological reason why we shouldn’t rebaptize, I’ve not heard one except for ecumenical reasons (which I don’t think is theological, anyway). I’m curious as well.

I understand chrismation only if you’re coming from Rome, but a lot modern Protestant denomination have so many unintentionally heretical Christology running rampant throughout, that even if they baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that it’s possible that their God is actually a modalist view, or a Nestorian Christ. Others might be outright Gnostics. You never know with Pastor Jim. He’s like a box of chocolates.

I assume it's that in the Creed we "believe in one baptism..." Since we aren't supposed to affirm that this or that schismatic group doesn't have God working among them, we avoid the possibility of re-baptizing and have the Orthodox sacrament "make up for" whatever may have been missing from the hetero baptism.

 

[SingularityOne]

Are you sure you heard Fr. Peter correctly? He definitely supports baptizing all converts, but I've had personal conversations with him about the Church's ability to exercise economia. I could imagine him saying economia is being abused, but not that it is outright invalid all the time.

It may have been my pride controlling what he said. But what I heard him saying was that it was an error that should be corrected if possible. However, I may be interpreting him wrong in my hearing.

 

[SingularityOne]

agreed. he spoke at St Tikhon's and wasn't anti-chrismation. he spoke to Dr David Ford at length about it, and Dr David was received by chrismation.

Interesting. I may be hearing him wrong then. Thanks for this.

 

[SingularityOne]

I was received via chrismation into the OCA, having been baptized once as a baby Catholic, and twice as a boy - Baptist.

In general, I believe God blesses our obedience. Salvation is not magic. The sacraments aren’t magic. I think that if a bishop decides that the baptism was sufficiently traditional to align with ours, and that chrismation is good enough, it doesn’t really matter, from our standpoint, if he’s technically wrong. God is capable of saving us even through our technical screw-ups. It’s like receiving Holy Communion from a drunken priest living in sin when you have no clue. You’ve done what you’re supposed to. Confessed and repented of your sins and prepared yourself as best you could. I don’t think God will deny His grace because the priest or bishop screwed up.

Obedience is a virtue, and if we are obeying the right authority, blind obedience is an even greater virtue. But it remains a virtue, as long as we are striving to obey Christ as best we can.

I agree with this. Just had a weird feeling after hearing him say that and wanted to check with my brothers and sisters in Christ here as I trust y'all.