• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Re-baptism vs. Chrismation

Nick T

Lurker
May 31, 2010
584
144
UK
✟23,155.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
<< No. What Fr. Peter Heers is saying is the Synod of each church need to change their policies as the application of leniency has gone amok.
At this point in time who is chrismated is just a policy decision based on whether the heterodox group baptises in the name of the Trinity, has some belief in the Trinity and are not hostile to Orthodoxy.>>



——

I appreciate all of your contributions and also the refined nature of the discussion and the problem.

It is true that what is widely practiced today cannot rightly be called and considered to be “oikonomia”, which is, of course, salvific and salutary. Rather, in most cases, it is “paranomia,” that is, not a “management of the house[hold] of Faith” but simply a departure from the law/rule/guiding hand of the Holy Canons, and, therefore, not leading us back to “akriveia,” or exactitude. And, thus, there is no doubt that the Local Churches need to return to akriveia asap, lest the boundaries of the Church and Orthodoxy continue to be eroded and become fluid with heterodoxy.

I cannot say, however, that such a foundational matter of faith and order in the Church is “just a policy decision”. Nor can I say that it is, or rather, should be based upon “whether the heterodox group Baptises in the name of the Trinity, has some belief in the Trinity and are not hostile to Orthodoxy.” These are not, in fact, the criteria given by the Kollyvades Fathers in their analysis of the Patristic stance throughout the ages. The canons themselves almost never give clear criteria for why one group is received in one way and another in another way. There is no “aitiologia” (cause given), in order words, - except in the case of the Eunomians who diverted in terms of the FORM. And what the Kollyvades Fathers concluded was that the one consistent, in terms of what the Fathers did vis-a-vis heretics, was *the form* which was kept by them - not the faith professed by them. In other words, if a heretical group ceased to practice the Orthodox FORM or baptism - by immersion - the Fathers insisted on baptism. That is why they can receive Arians by chrismation but Paulanists, Eunomians, Montanists, Phrygians, and Sabellians *and others* by baptism.

In this regard I highly recommend the following short analysis and new translation of the key canon on the matter, the 95th of Trullo, for a better understanding of the mind of the Fathers on the matter: Canon 95 -Council of Trullo

In short, brothers and sisters, there are presuppositions to the mysteries and especially to the Mystery of Initiation into Christ and His Church. And, to the employment of salvific - i.e. true - oikonomia. If the heterodox have abandoned - as almost all of them have today - the basic form of the mystery, we should, following the Holy Fathers, employ the stance of the Church which has been to baptize and not to admit by any means of oikonomia. This is precisely the basis of the decision of the famous synodical decree of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 1755. In this case, employing oikonomia and receiving by chrismation also undermines the akriveia of the Church and inevitably leads to grave laxity in terms of our own practice of baptism, as is evidenced in many places in the Church today, especially Serbia and Russia.

As for the comments of our brother “Singularity One,” it is not advised to set aside the matter of Truth in any matter, but much more in such foundational matters of Faith and Church order and to rely solely on the opinion of any one person in the Church, even be it your spiritual father or priest or bishop. We do not practice “blind obedience” in the Church with respect to *matters of Faith and Dogma*. The canons are very clear on this, as are the Fathers, of which an abundance of quotes can be shared. Even in the monastic life, where one could say that a kind of blind obedience is called for, this does not pertain to matters of Faith and Order, since a monk can leave his monastery and his elder if he is a heretic or if he allows women or young men to stay in the monastery (thus breaking the Patristic and monastic order of things).

Finally, let us consider the practice of the (vast majority of) Fathers on Athos Today (and for the last 50 years+ certainly) with regard to those heterodox received by chrismatation. It is not only future monks who are baptized. If even a visitor, a good-willed, inquisitive visitor, speaks to the fathers on Athos about his reception by chrismation, it is very likely that most monasteries and most abbots there (and in many places in Greece) will encourage him to correct the error of his reception by chrismation (and given that the presuppositions mentioned above are not met, which is key). They do not reject him as Orthodox, nor all that he has lived in the Church (God forbid!) but neither do they consider it not within the oikonomia of God to correct the error. There have been not a few charismatic experiences of holy elders over the years to confirm this stance, which also is consistent with the Kollyvades Fathers understanding.

Brothers and sisters, we are living in an unprecedented time, with an unprecedented degree of departures from canonical norms in many aspects of our Church Life. The narrow path has gotten, and is getting every day, narrower due to wider, more egregious departures from the Way of the Holy Fathers. Let us Stand Aright! Stand with Fear! Let us Attend!

Thank you very much for your insightful and well referenced post, Father. I would just like to ask by way of clarification what you would make of the fluctuations on this point that have occurred historically with regards to the reception of Latins/Catholics. As I understand it criticism of Latin baptism on account of the practice of pouring dates back even into the 13th Century yet a great many synods and Patriarchs since then and in full knowledge of this practice have permitted the reception by chrismation of Latin converts (and they did so long before modern ecumenism). If, as you say, such reception is not permissible even as economia due to deficiency of form then what are we to make of these decisions? It seems that the historical perspective on whether this is a valid form of economia is not so one-sided, although of course the strict practice has always been re-baptism.
 
Upvote 0

SeraphimSarov

Пресвятая Богородица, спаси нас...
Feb 16, 2007
4,058
631
Nowhere
✟43,776.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
I was received via chrismation under the Antiochian Archdiocese. I had a Roman baptism as an infant. Frankly, I wish I could have been both baptized and chrismated, but a catechumen has no business making such decisions. As someone earlier said, it's up to one's bishop.

Forgive me,
Seraphim
 
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,514
New York
✟219,964.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
When it comes to the “form” of baptism, how do we also consider the oikonomia explicitly permitted in the didache?

“And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.”
This is evidence that we have strayed from the norm. The teaching above verifies triple immersion as a component for proper form. That when you don't have a body of water the triple pouring is still to be followed. It presupposes triple immersion is already being done and pouring water on the head was a rarity, an anomaly and clarifies to pour three times as well. This is verified when it says, Baptise INTO the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.. (meaning dunk into each individual name)

It also says when you don't have access to a stream or river, then a body of water capable of immersion is preferred. Finally if the previous options are exhausted pour water.
The overwhelming majority of Orthodox churches have access to the first two options.
But no where does it speak of a single immersion nor of sprinkling nor of emergency air baptisms etc.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AMM

A Beggar
Site Supporter
May 2, 2017
1,725
1,269
Virginia
✟352,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
This is evidence that we have strayed from the norm. The teaching above verifies triple immersion as a component for proper form. That when you don't have a body of water the triple pouring is still to be followed. It presupposes triple immersion is already being done and pouring water on the head was a rarity, an anomaly and clarifies to pour three times as well. This is verified when it says, Baptise INTO the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.. (meaning dunk into each individual name)

It also says when you don't have access to a stream or river, then a body of water capable of immersion is preferred. Finally if the previous options are exhausted pour water.
The overwhelming majority of Orthodox churches have access to the first two options.
But no where does it speak of a single immersion nor of sprinkling nor of emergency air baptisms etc.
Agreed... I’m not saying we should change the traditional method of baptism.

And for what it’s worth, nowhere did I speak of a single immersion or sprinkling or emergency air baptisms either. I’ve never met a catholic or Lutheran priest — with whom I’ve discussed baptism — who supports any of those things either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: buzuxi02
Upvote 0

Melista

Active Member
Jun 13, 2022
49
44
55
Noblesville
✟7,601.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I think I’m going to talk to my priest at our final class tomorrow about being baptized. I will certainly be obedient to what he thinks is best but I feel it would be dishonest of me not to share my concerns and distress over my Protestant baptism 30 years ago.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,553
13,955
59
Sydney, Straya
✟1,394,847.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I think I’m going to talk to my priest at our final class tomorrow about being baptized. I will certainly be obedient to what he thinks is best but I feel it would be dishonest of me not to share my concerns and distress over my Protestant baptism 30 years ago.
In hindsight I would have preferred baptism, not so much for my own peace of mind, but to remove any opportunity for zealots to create doubts about my place in the Church. I know they mean well, but I was chrismated according to the instruction given to our priest by the bishop. Both I and my priest acted in obedience to our bishop and that is where the buck stops, no if's or but's.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Melista
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,273
20,933
Earth
✟1,642,582.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I think I’m going to talk to my priest at our final class tomorrow about being baptized. I will certainly be obedient to what he thinks is best but I feel it would be dishonest of me not to share my concerns and distress over my Protestant baptism 30 years ago.

yep, just be obedient. and remember that Fr Seraphim Rose was chrismated by St John Maximovitch.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,273
20,933
Earth
✟1,642,582.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
It’s primarily due to my own state during my baptism 30 years ago. I had zero understanding and zero real repentance.

well, just ask and see. the big thing is that you are received properly, and there is grace in obedience.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Melista
Upvote 0

Melista

Active Member
Jun 13, 2022
49
44
55
Noblesville
✟7,601.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
well, just ask and see. the big thing is that you are received properly, and there is grace in obedience.
Thank you. I do believe he will know what is appropriate for my situation. If I fail to explain the circumstances to him then I will always wonder and that’s not good.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,273
20,933
Earth
✟1,642,582.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Thank you. I do believe he will know what is appropriate for my situation. If I fail to explain the circumstances to him then I will always wonder and that’s not good.

even if you did or remember something later, God’s mercy is infinitely greater than our shortcomings and failures.
 
Upvote 0

Melista

Active Member
Jun 13, 2022
49
44
55
Noblesville
✟7,601.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
even if you did or remember something later, God’s mercy is infinitely greater than our shortcomings and failures.
That’s comforting because I have a lot of those!
 
  • Like
Reactions: ArmyMatt
Upvote 0

Melista

Active Member
Jun 13, 2022
49
44
55
Noblesville
✟7,601.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
In hindsight I would have preferred baptism, not so much for my own peace of mind, but to remove any opportunity for zealots to create doubts about my place in the Church. I know they mean well, but I was chrismated according to the instruction given to our priest by the bishop. Both I and my priest acted in obedience to our bishop and that is where the buck stops, no if's or but's.
This is going to be my situation too and I know I need to accept it with a happy heart. I am truly grateful I’m being received and need to put the doubts and questions behind me.
It has been helpful to think back on my Protestant baptism and see the numerous ways I personally failed to understand what it means. I’m glad I am starting to understand that better now and since God is merciful (and beyond linear time) the important part is that I’m starting to finally learn about repentance. I was fixated on the words “repent and be baptized” and it seemed I did things out of order in my limited human understanding.

It was also probably *not* helpful for me to be made privy to this type of information but I asked for it by inquiring about the baptism/chrismation issue to my friend who first introduced me to Orthodoxy so there’s that…
There is no “valid” baptism outside the Church — Part 2 of 2
Ultimately it probably boils down to pride on my part of tending to think I know best when I don’t and if God wants me baptized it will happen. Forgive me for complicating matters and working through my angst in this thread!
 
  • Like
Reactions: prodromos
Upvote 0

Melista

Active Member
Jun 13, 2022
49
44
55
Noblesville
✟7,601.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Great news, I will be received by baptism in October! I talked further with my priest who said he appreciated my concerns and that I was taking my reception seriously and would be happy to baptize me. Thank you everyone for your prayers and support.
 
Upvote 0