Proof requires evidence, not speculation and supposition and untested hypotheses!
Pot, meet kettle. You can't show me anywhere it says Mary's other children.
The bible calls them Jesus' brethren and sisters and the Bible declares that Joseph commenced having sex with Mary after Jesus was born! That is empirical evidence and not some speculation.
It does not say that Joseph had sex with Mary.
Well I can't speak of todays Catechism. I now what I and all my peers were taught in the 50's and 60's pre vatican 2.
The Baltimore Catechism is what I quoted. Today's Catechism concurs.
So you are saying that Jesus divinity was infused in HIm after His conception? Mary did give birth to Jesus! But as she was not divine, she could not give Jesus any divinity! And that has nothing to do with Her having other children and having sex with her husband as the Bible says she did!
Not at all. But women do not give birth to natures. Jesus had a divine nature, and a human nature, but he was a Divine Person. Jesus is God, Mary gave birth to Jesus, so Mother of God, or more precisely God-bearer, is appropriate.
So then all you need do is show that Mary's parents made such a vow! And show from the Torah where once she reached the age she could marry (once she strated menstruating) she was freed from the vow her parents made!
See my previous post about the existence of consecrated virgins. The Protoevangelium speaks of the vow. We believe that Mary embraced the vow and intended to live her life that way.
YOu made a big deal of first her, then her parents making a vow! So show they did!
The conception of Mary and her consecration vow, from the Protoevangelium:
3. And gazing towards the Heavens, she saw a sparrow's nest in the laurel tree, and made a lamentation in herself, saying: Alas! who begot me? and what womb produced me? because I have become a curse in the presence of the sons of Israel, and I have been reproached, and they have driven me in derision out of the Temple of the Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like the birds of the heavens because even the birds of the heavens are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like the beasts of the earth, because even the beasts of the earth are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like these waters, because even these waters are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like this earth, because even the earth brings forth its fruits in season, and blesses Thee, O Lord.
4. And, behold, an Angel of the Lord stood by, saying: Anna, Anna, the Lord has heard your prayer, and you will conceive, and will give birth; and your seed will be spoken of in all the world. And Anna said: As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God; and it shall minister to Him in holy things all the days of its life. And, behold, two Angels came, saying to her: Behold, Joachim your husband is coming with his flocks. For an Angel of the Lord went down to him, saying: Joachim, Joachim, the Lord God has heard your prayer. Go down from here; for, behold, your wife Anna shall conceive. And Joachim went down and called his shepherds, saying: Bring to me ten ewes without spot or blemish, and they shall be for the Lord my God; and bring me twelve tender calves, and they shall be for the priests and the elders; and a hundred goats for all the people. And, behold, Joachim came with his flocks; and Anna stood by the gate, and saw Joachim coming, and she ran and hung upon his neck, saying: Now I know that the Lord God has blessed me exceedingly; for, behold the widow is no longer a widow, and I the childless shall conceive. And Joachim rested the first day in his house.
5. And on the following day he brought his offerings, saying within himself: If the Lord God has been gracious to me, the plate on the priest's forehead will make it manifest to me. And Joachim brought his offerings, and observed attentively the priest's plate when he went up to the Altar of the Lord, and he saw no sin in himself. And Joachim said: Now I know that the Lord has been gracious unto me, and has forgiven all my sins. And he went down from the Temple of the Lord justified, and departed to his own house. And her months were fulfilled, and in the ninth month Anna gave birth. And she said to the midwife: What have I brought forth? and she said: A girl. And Anna said: My soul has been magnified this day. And she laid her down. And the days having been fulfilled, Anna was purified, and she nursed the child, and gave her the name, Mary.
6. And the child grew strong day by day; and when she was six months old, her mother set her on the ground to see if she could stand, and she walked seven steps and came into her bosom; and she snatched her up, saying: As the Lord my God lives, you shall not walk on this earth until I bring you into the Temple of the Lord. And she made a sanctuary in her bed-chamber, and allowed nothing common or unclean to pass through her. And she called the undefiled daughters of the Hebrews, and they took care of her. And when she was a year old, Joachim made a great feast, and invited the priests, and the scribes, and the elders, and all the people of Israel. And Joachim brought the child to the priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God of our Fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be remembered in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God Most High, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever. And her mother snatched her up, and took her into the sanctuary of her bed-chamber, and nursed her. And Anna made a song to the Lord God, saying: I will sing a song to the Lord my God, for He has looked upon me, and has taken away the reproach of mine enemies; and the Lord has given the fruit of His righteousness, singular in its kind, and richly endowed before Him. Who will tell the sons of Rubim that Anna is nursing a child? Hear, hear, ye twelve tribes of Israel, that Anna is nursing a child. And she laid her to rest in the bed-chamber of her sanctuary, and went out and served them. And when the supper was ended, they went down rejoicing, and glorifying the God of Israel.
7. And months were added to the child. When the child was two years old, Joachim said: Let us take her up to the Temple of the Lord, that we may pay the vow that we have vowed, lest perchance the Lord send to us, and our offering be not received. And Anna said: Let us wait for the third year, in order that the child may not seek for father or mother. And Joachim said: So let us wait. And the child was three years old, and Joachim said: Invite the daughters of the Hebrews that are undefiled, and let them each take a lamp, and let them stand with the lamps burning, that the child may not turn back, and her heart be turned away from the Temple of the Lord. And they did so until they went up into the Temple of the Lord. And the priest received her, and kissed her, and blessed her, saying: “The Lord has magnified your name in all generations. In you, in the last days, the Lord will manifest His redemption to the sons of Israel.” And he set her down upon the third step of the Altar, and the Lord God sent grace upon her; and she danced with her feet, and all the house of Israel loved her.
The nature of Joseph:
9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the Virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received thee from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave thee in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to thee. The Lord will protect thee.
17. And there was an order from the Emperor Augustus, that all in Bethlehem of Judea should be enrolled. And Joseph said: I shall enroll my sons, but what shall I do with this maiden? How shall I enroll her? As my wife? I am ashamed. As my daughter then? But all the sons of Israel know that she is not my daughter. The day of the Lord shall itself bring it to pass as the Lord will. And he saddled the ass, and set her upon it; and his son led it, and Joseph followed. And when they had come within three miles, Joseph turned and saw her sorrowful; and he said to himself: Likely that which is in her distresses her. And again Joseph turned and saw her laughing. And he said to her: Mary, how is it that I see in thy face at one time laughter, at another sorrow? And Mary said to Joseph: Because I see two peoples with my eyes; the one weeping and lamenting, and the other rejoicing and exulting. And they came into the middle of the road, and Mary said to him: Take me down from off the ass, for that which is in me presses to come forth. And he took her down from off the ass, and said to her: Whither shall I lead thee, and cover thy disgrace? for the place is desert.
18. And he found a cave there, and led her into it; and leaving his two sons beside her, he went out to seek a midwife in the district of Bethlehem. And I Joseph was walking, and was not walking; and I looked up into the sky, and saw the sky astonished; and I looked up to the pole of the heavens, and saw it standing, and the birds of the air keeping still. And I looked down upon the earth, and saw a trough lying, and work-people reclining: and their hands were in the trough. And those that were eating did not eat, and those that were rising did not carry it up, and those that were conveying anything to their mouths did not convey it; but the faces of all were looking upwards. And I saw the sheep walking, and the sheep stood still; and the shepherd raised his hand to strike them, and his hand remained up. And I looked upon the current of the river, and I saw the mouths of the kids resting on the water and not drinking, and all things in a moment were driven from their course.
19. And I saw a woman coming down from the hill-country, and she said to me: O man, whither art thou going? And I said: I am seeking an Hebrew midwife. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel? And I said to her: Yes. And she said: And who is it that is bringing forth in the cave? And I said: A woman betrothed to me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife. And yet she is not my wife, but has conceived of the Holy Spirit. And the midwife said to him: Is this true? And Joseph said to her: Come and see. And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen strange things -- because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth -- a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.
I corrected you once! If I have to correct you again, it is you deliberately with malice bearing false witness!
So show that from the torah! and then show that Joseph married her to be a guardian instead of wife!
I know the law provided for kinsmen redeemer, but Joseph was not a kinsmen of Mary!
I need to bring this false argument up again! YOu are right. This statement standing by itself does not prove that the child went out ot play or finish his homework!
Matthew 1:25 says Joseph did not have sex with Mary UNTIL she gave birth to her firstborn (Jesus).
Sex = playing outside, the firstborn= finishing your homework in your analogy!
So if MARY DID NOT GIVE BIRTH TO JESUS THEN THE CONDITION until COMES INTO PLAY AND HE DID NOT HAVE SEX. But Mary did give birth to Jesus so the condition UNTIL was met and Jospeh had sex with Mary! Don't believe me- bring this to an English teacher and learn 3rd grade grammar!
See above. Again, it is not an official document, but it is quite detailed. Written less than 100 years after the death of Jesus.
So my diocese and the Cardinals' area of rule were all lying to us? Was the Baltimore Catechism we learned from intentionally rewritten? also the big to do about meat being allowed on Fridays after Vatican 2 was all a show?
I quoted the Baltimore Catechism above. It does not say that it was mortal sin to eat meat on Fridays, except during Lent. I also quoted the Baltimore Catechism about 'limbo'.
Actually we were told why from our catechism lessons why sex before marriage was wrong!
So, then, why is it wrong?
Well I use them as I need them. but yes some didn't even mention it! I also take the writings with a careful read. The second and thrid centuries saw many heretical writings that made it into the 30 volume set.
Yes, but those are not official to Catholicism. Your 30 volume set seems to be more than what we hold true.
Well you can tell the sisters and priest if they are alive! Missing mass on Sundays was a mortal sin, but they had exemptions for that as well! So your argument is a red herring![/QUOTE]