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Featured What happened to the Christianity that gave us the Holy Roman Empire...

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by Inkfingers, Jun 29, 2020.

  1. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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    ...the Crusades, the Templars, and the Inquisition?

    Where has it gone and why did it go, only to be replaced by a kind that seems ashamed of (and opposed to) this history?
     
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  2. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    Big subject have a look https://thirdmill.org/seminary/course.asp/vs/CH1
     
  3. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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    Most things are big subjects. I would like to see people answer in their own words not just links if possible. Why has Christianity cease to be, and turned their back, on what they were?
     
  4. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    Not all Christians are European, much less German. The Christianity that gave some people the Holy Roman Empire was a Christianity tied to power, ruled by force, which is really no kind of Christianity at all. That such a "Christianity" should come to an end can only be seen as a good thing.
     
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  5. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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    This was a Christianity that lasted over 1,000 years.

    I would like to know why it was abandoned by a new Christianity which now repudiates it.
     
  6. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Most of that stuff happened after The Great Schism of 1,054 A.D.

    .
     
  7. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    Empires rise and fall. The kingdoms of this world rise and fall, as all finite things do. You seem to be confusing the kingdom of God with one temporal kingdom. There is only one Christianity, just as there is only one Lord, one Spirit, one faith, one baptism.
     
  8. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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    It did, but the Holy Roman Empire did not (and the Crusades were as a result of Byzantium's call for help). Not to mention Byzantium did much the same anyway.

    So my question remains...
     
  9. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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    You are being woefully simplistic here.

    Where is the Church as was? WHY did it change?
     
  10. Quid est Veritas?

    Quid est Veritas? In Memoriam to CS Lewis

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    Well, Protestantism happened. That helped end the Holy Roman Empire as anything other than a notional entity, till Napoleon finally killed it.

    And Crusading had a long slow death, which was arguably killed as a movement after the fiasco of Nicopolis, which is why no large crusade was ever called afterwards.
     
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  11. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    That's fair. Quid's answer above is more helpful.
     
  12. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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    Sorry, no, I meant the HRE of Charlemagne, not the later (post-reformation) form.
     
  13. Quid est Veritas?

    Quid est Veritas? In Memoriam to CS Lewis

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    The Carolingian Empire? Well, that was partitioned between Louis the Pious' sons into West Francia (France), Lotharingia, and East Francia (Germany). The last named continued using the title, especially after the Ottonian dynasty, and its pretensions as notional overlord of Europe. As a quasi-state, it ended after the Popes hounded the Hohenstaufen heirs of Frederick II into oblivion, and tried to set up Louis of Anjou as king in Naples.

    I am not sure what you are really asking, and I have a sneaky suspicion that your idea of the Holy Roman Empire is one a bit divorced from the actual history.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
  14. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The first written history suggests Arnulf, the archbishop of Reims in the 10th century identified the Papacy as the Antichrist. Later Joachim of Fiore in the 12th century preached the Papacy was the Antichrist. And the archbishop Eberhard II in 1240 also related the papacy to the Antichrist. This led to the martyrdom of many Albigenses, Anabaptists, and others who in part embraced his views. Synopsis of the End Times; A look at the popular beliefs of today by Mike Morrill.
     
  15. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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    Are you deliberately misunderstanding me?

    I'm asking about the Church which created the HRE, the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Templars.

    Where has IT gone? Why do we not see IT around today? Why instead do we see a Christianity desperate to distance itself from those things?
     
  16. Quid est Veritas?

    Quid est Veritas? In Memoriam to CS Lewis

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    Well, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation happened, as per my previous post, and the failures of the latter crusades made it look as if God did not in fact, will it.

    The Inquisition is still around though, in its form as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Catholicism, though the civil statutes against heresy have been abandoned - most by the time of the Enlightenment, and the Spanish Inquisition was wound up in the 19th, by liberalisation.

    I am not deliberately misunderstanding you, but you are lumping quite disparate historic things together. So I don't quite understand what you think 'IT' is, as how it unites all these activities. Churches still fear heresy, but secular rulers no longer consider it a crime against their rule as well (unless they are Idealogues fearing different heresy, like Nazis or Marxists). Christian military campaigning has been invoked in WWI and II, where the Germans were castigated for the Rape of Belgium or attacking the Red Cross, for instance. Crusading has always been a mixed bag though, and we mostly face Islamic extremism today, in which Crusading heritage would be active propagandising for the enemy - the same reason why the British did not trumpet it officially, when taking Jerusalem in WWI.
     
  17. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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    No, I'm asking where the Church went. The Church that drove the creation of the HRE etc. I do not see that Church today. I just see a wet liberal entity that treats all of these things as being various degrees of shameful.
     
  18. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Christianity had nothing to do with those things, they were all done by wicked pagan Romans posing as "Christians"
    Christians never recognised the "HRE" as anything more than wicked pagans and we still don't to this very day.
    So, your question is misguided and invalid to begin with.
     
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  19. Quid est Veritas?

    Quid est Veritas? In Memoriam to CS Lewis

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    The Church that drove the creation of the Holy Roman Empire was one afraid of the Lombard princes in its secular capacity, and was equally reticent to return to the Caesaropapism of Byzantine rule, so found a Frankish protector - only for the Empire to get out of its control, leading to centuries of Guelf and Ghibbeline wars and Investiture controversies.

    The mediaeval Church was a potent force in the feudal hierarchy. It was a major landowner, holder of much of the learning and source of clerks for government. It held the keys to Heaven itself, and much oiled the wheels of rule on earth. Such secular concerns work both ways, which is why the Cluniac reforms had to wrench the Church from its fallen state after the Pornocratia and so, then the Franciscans and Dominicans internally reformed it, and finally the challenges of the quasi-Protestant Waldesians and Hussites. This came to a head in the Reformation and the counter-Reformation, and the pervasive anticlericalism in Catholic Europe amongst revolutionaries later. You cannot worship both God and Mammon. Any human thing degenerates, and some Reform thereof is constantly necessary.

    The Church is not a 'wet liberal entity', though the liberalism in Europe has much infected the Catholic hierarchy. There are people like Cardinal Sarah opposing this.

    The Church stepped into the void left by the fall of Rome, and in the process muddied its feet - often with good intentions, which can pave the road to Hell. Everything humans do is a varying degree of shameful, as only through Christ can we attain salvation, who I certainly don't see endorsing worldly empires or military campaigning much.
     
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  20. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Control-seeking people can highjack whoever and whatever is available. During history, there have been religious people who could be fooled into doing such cruel and horrible things. And at times there have been secular people who could be used by the control seekers. Right now, there is enough secular power and religious philosophical influence, I would say, to keep a religious group from using violence to get something.

    And I understand that Jesus has not had His people using violence to get control. So, I would not call that Christianity which had people doing violent stuff. Their religion got highjacked, but it was not obedient to Christ.
     
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