Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Running2win]

Paul did not say; all would be resurrected when Jesus Returns.
Revelation 20:4-5 specifies exactly who; The martyrs killed during the Great Trib; the 3 1/2 year period of Satan's rule. The rest of the dead must await the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.

The Prayer of Azariah:
This prayer is an addition to the Greek version of the Book of Daniel. It is inserted in chapter 3 between verses 23 and 24. Azariah, the Hebrew name of Shadrach, with his friends, Meshach and Abed-nego, were thrown into the fiery furnace because they refused to bow down to Nebuchadnezzar’s golden image.

The prayer of Azariah 1:2-23
They walked in the midst of the fire, praising God. Azariah stood among the flames and began to pray aloud: Blessed are You and worthy of praise, Y’hovah, the God of our fathers, Your Name is glorious forever. Just is the sentence in all that You have brought on Your people and upon Jerusalem, the holy city of our ancestors, true and just is the sentence You have passed on us because of our sins. We had broken Your Laws in rebellion, we did not heed Your Commandments, we failed to do what You had given us for our own good. Now You have handed us over to our enemies, those wicked peoples and so we are reduced to silence, shame and disgrace has befallen Your people.

For the sake of Your honor do not abandon us forever, do not annul Your Covenant. Do not withdraw Your mercy from us, for the sake of Abraham; Your friend, for the sake of Isaac; Your servant and for Israel; Your holy one. You promised them that their descendants would be as numerous as sand on the seashore. Yet, Lord, we are all now in exile, for our sins we are brought low. Now we have no ruler, no prophet, there is no place we can make offerings to obtain mercy. But because we come with a contrite heart and a humbled spirit, may we be accepted? As though we come with thousands of whole offerings, let this sacrifice be made before You this Day: that we will obey You in everything, for no shame will come to those who put their trust in You. We will now follow You with our whole heart and in fear seek Your Presence. Do not put us to shame, but deal with us in Your forbearance and great mercy. Y’hovah, Creator of all things, deliver us and let Your Name be glorified.

May all who harm Your servants be brought low, let them be stripped of all power and sovereignty and may their strength be crushed. Let them know that You alone are the Lord God, glorious over all the earth. Ref: REB Apocrypha

The three friends said to King Nebuchadnezzar:
Daniel 3:17 If there is a God who is able to save us from the blazing furnace; it is our God, whom we serve, He will deliver us.

Now, as we near the end of the Church era, the Lord will once again take action in His creation, with the many prophesied judgement of fire, that will destroy His enemies.
But to those who call on His Name, who have a contrite heart and a humble spirit, those who put their trust in God, then when the terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath strikes the earth with ‘blazing heat and consuming fire’, then this prayer would be one to pray with fervent sincerity.
Zephaniah 2:3, Isaiah 43:1-4, 1 Peter 1:5,

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Paul does not say only those under the 5th seal. The whole church age is "in Christ". Right? So all church age saints will reign with Him. You are arguing with the wrong person. I didn't write it. And I thought this was a pre-mill forum? You hold to post-mill it sounds like?

Jesus says this church will be reigning with Him in the MK, and Paul says we will too in his letter to Tim, so...



25‘Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come. 26‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; 27AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father; 28and I will give him the morning star. 29‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Timtofly]

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Paul does not say only those under the 5th seal. The whole church age is "in Christ". Right? So all church age saints will reign with Him. You are arguing with the wrong person. I didn't write it. And I thought this was a pre-mill forum? You hold to post-mill it sounds like?

Jesus says this church will be reigning with Him in the MK, and Paul says we will too in his letter to Tim, so...



25‘Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come. 26‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; 27AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father; 28and I will give him the morning star. 29‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

This is the eschatology section of relatively wide selection of theological views forum. It seems to me that a lot of Reformed theology believers are slipping into amill theology territory. Many are already preterist or historist, claiming Revelation already happened in the 1st century. Not many around Remembering what a Lord's Day is any more. God separated the last 1000 years of this reality for Himself. The odd man out who accepts the Millennium but places the rapture in the end is not unusual. Just part of the last days theological conundrum. Even pre-mill here do not agree on much.

 

[Running2win]

This is the eschatology section of relatively wide selection of theological views forum. It seems to me that a lot of Reformed theology believers are slipping into amill theology territory. Many are already preterist or historist, claiming Revelation already happened in the 1st century. Not many around Remembering what a Lord's Day is any more. God separated the last 1000 years of this reality for Himself. The odd man out who accepts the Millennium but places the rapture in the end is not unusual. Just part of the last days theological conundrum. Even pre-mill here do not agree on much.

Thanks!

 

[BABerean2]

The odd man out who accepts the Millennium but places the rapture in the end is not unusual. Just part of the last days theological conundrum. Even pre-mill here do not agree on much.

It is no wonder the pre-mills cannot agree, based on Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-13, and Revelation 11:18.

Pastor Wagner on the pre-mill doctrine:

Their claims of mortals, and immortals living together on a sin-cursed world after the Second Coming of Christ are not found in the Bible...


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[keras]

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Paul does not say only those under the 5th seal. The whole church age is "in Christ". Right? So all church age saints will reign with Him. You are arguing with the wrong person. I didn't write it. And I thought this was a pre-mill forum? You hold to post-mill it sounds like?

Paul does not say when those worthy will be made alive again. Neither did Jesus in John 3:16. We find that information in Revelation 20:11-15; it will happen AFTER the Millennium.

I do not hold to any 'pre, mid. post, or the ridiculous anytime view.
Revelation 20:4 is crystal clear: ONLY the Trib martyrs will be brought back to life when Jesus Returns.

 

[Timtofly]

It is no wonder the pre-mills cannot agree, based on Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-13, and Revelation 11:18.
Their claims of mortals, and immortals living together on a sin-cursed world after the Second Coming of Christ are not found in the Bible...

Neither is amill, but that does not stop humanity in their endless effort to have the "right" interpretation.

Your argument about not agreement has everything to do with the tribulation, not the Lord's Day.

 

[Running2win]

Pau; does not say when those worthy will be made alive again. Neither did Jesus in John 3:16. We find that information in Revelation 20:11-15; it will happen AFTER the Millennium.

I do not hold to any 'pre, mid. post, or the stupid; anytime, view.
Revelation 20:4 is crystal clear: ONLY the Trib martyrs will be brought back to life when Jesus Returns.

Oh well...I tried.

 

[keras]

Oh well...I tried.

I try to convince people like you of my beliefs, too! We both fail.

But the Day is soon coming when one of us will be proved right. You have my permission to laugh and point the finger at me, if I'm wrong. OK the other way?

 

[Running2win]

I try to convince people like you of my beliefs, too! We both fail.

But the Day is soon coming when one of us will be proved right. You have my permission to laugh and point the finger at me, if I'm wrong. OK the other way?

Sure! You are right, God will sort all this out one day and then it won't matter who is right, only Jesus!

 

[iamlamad]

Man said vs. God said...

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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Once a person comes to understand that we don't form doctrine from isolated texts but from ALL the word of God, they know that Jesus is coming back to earth TWICE MORE.
Next coming: 1 thes. 4
Final Coming: Rev. 19

TWO different texts show TWO different comings for TWO different purposes.

 

[BABerean2]

Once a person comes to understand that we don't form doctrine from isolated texts but from ALL the word of God, they know that Jesus is coming back to earth TWICE MORE.
Next coming: 1 thes. 4
Final Coming: Rev. 19

TWO different texts show TWO different comings for TWO different purposes.

Ignore the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, and Christ judging the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18, and Christ coming as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and maybe you can make your idea work.

It is a doctrine of ignorance, but that is what is required to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work...


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[Marilyn C]

In the Parable of the Weeds, the Lord said:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up the weeds first and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

The Rapture takes place after the Resurrection:

1Th 4:15-16 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

This sounds so clear and straightforward.

Hi Andrew,

You are referencing Jesus` words to the people of Israel. The Body of Christ revelation was not revealed till given to the Apostle Paul.

 

[BABerean2]

Hi Andrew,

You are referencing Jesus` words to the people of Israel. The Body of Christ revelation was not revealed till given to the Apostle Paul.

Wrong.

Are you claiming those saved on the Day of Pentecost were not part of the Body of Christ?

On the day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in the passage below, and about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ.

The Gentiles were not grafted into the Church until several years later.


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

.....................................

You are also ignoring Peter taking the Gospel to the house of Cornelius.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.



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[Timtofly]

Wrong.

Are you claiming those saved on the Day of Pentecost were not part of the Body of Christ?

On the day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in the passage below, and about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ.

The Gentiles were not grafted into the Church until several years later.


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

.....................................

You are also ignoring Peter taking the Gospel to the house of Cornelius.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Those at Pentecost were the church. Soon the church will cease. The same thing that happened at Pentecost, will happen to the current nation of Israel, and all of Jacob dispersed around the world. However, it will not be the church involved. Current Israel will look at the Lamb and ask, "who gave you those scars?" The tribulation of Jacob's trouble is about the firstfruits of the last Millennium. This time Jesus Christ is gathering those to reign in a physical kingdom. But all will go through the valley of the shadow of death. The sinful body of human flesh has to die, to be changed into an incorruptible body, even for those who reign in the next Millennium. It will not be a baptism of water, nor the Holy Spirit. It will be a literal baptism of fire.

 

[BABerean2]

Those at Pentecost were the church. Soon the church will cease. The same thing that happened at Pentecost, will happen to the current nation of Israel, and all of Jacob dispersed around the world. However, it will not be the church involved. Current Israel will look at the Lamb and ask, "who gave you those scars?" The tribulation of Jacob's trouble is about the firstfruits of the last Millennium. This time Jesus Christ is gathering those to reign in a physical kingdom. But all will go through the valley of the shadow of death. The sinful body of human flesh has to die, to be changed into an incorruptible body, even for those who reign in the next Millennium. It will not be a baptism of water, nor the Holy Spirit. It will be a literal baptism of fire.

Nice story. The problem is it is not found in the Bible.

Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the Church cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Jeremiah wrote about "the time of Jacob's trouble" during the time of the captivity in Babylon. They did return to the land after that time of "trouble".

Your attempts to separate faithful Israel from the Church falls apart in Acts of the Apostles 2:36, and Romans 11:1-5, and James 1:1-3.

Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel found in Matthew 1:1,

You are attempting to replace the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

You are attempting to replace the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

The baptism of fire is found at the return of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-13.

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[BABerean2]

Those at Pentecost were the church. Soon the church will cease. The same thing that happened at Pentecost, will happen to the current nation of Israel, and all of Jacob dispersed around the world. However, it will not be the church involved. Current Israel will look at the Lamb and ask, "who gave you those scars?" The tribulation of Jacob's trouble is about the firstfruits of the last Millennium. This time Jesus Christ is gathering those to reign in a physical kingdom. But all will go through the valley of the shadow of death. The sinful body of human flesh has to die, to be changed into an incorruptible body, even for those who reign in the next Millennium. It will not be a baptism of water, nor the Holy Spirit. It will be a literal baptism of fire.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

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[JulieB67]

Once a person comes to understand that we don't form doctrine from isolated texts but from ALL the word of God, they know that Jesus is coming back to earth TWICE MORE.
Next coming: 1 thes. 4
Final Coming: Rev. 19

You say this, but then quote just two scriptures, books apart.

The subject originally was "where the dead are" but moves into the day of the Lord.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"


I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

If you really were using "ALL" the word of God, why stop there? Paul hasn't. He is continuing on with the word "But" in chapter 5. Manuscripts did not have chapters,

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

You need to read all of those verses above to not lose context.

And we wouldn't even stop there (reading all of both books/letters of 1&2 Thess) Paul wrote a second letter because they were confused and thought that the day of Christ was at hand (imminent) and he corrects them. But the subject has never changed and he wants to nail down the timing of the day of the Lord/Day of Christ for them and says beware that we be not deceived.

In chapter 2 he addresses their confusion,

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

We can't just pull one scripture out of both books. We wouldn't read any other book that way so why would we do this with the Bible?

 

[Timtofly]

Nice story. The problem is it is not found in the Bible.

Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the Church cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Jeremiah wrote about "the time of Jacob's trouble" during the time of the captivity in Babylon. They did return to the land after that time of "trouble".

Your attempts to separate faithful Israel from the Church falls apart in Acts of the Apostles 2:36, and Romans 11:1-5, and James 1:1-3.

Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel found in Matthew 1:1,

You are attempting to replace the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

You are attempting to replace the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

The baptism of fire is found at the return of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-13.

And those in the great falling away reject the dire situation they are in. It is the end of the church. She would not go on forever. Abraham's promise is the covenant that goes on forever. You all can fight over the covenants until you are exhausted. The Second Coming is at the door, whether the church is ready or not.

 

[Timtofly]

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

Sorry, the church is the restoration of Adam's descendants, both OT and NT, back to being sons of God.

Abraham's descendants were promised the physical kingdom. The church was promised the spiritual kingdom. That may or may not be dispensational, but some fail to grasp the entire history of God’s creation, and only focus on the 1st century. Not even the church in the OT are of the physical kingdom. To deny a Millennium reign is to deny that God keeps His promises. Calling God a liar is not very wise. Theology does not get to pick and choose God’s "kingdoms". God did that before this reality even existed. Being dogmatic about one's theology even using Scripture does not make it truth. Science is held as dogma to the same people and cannot be proven false. Yet both ideologies are based on the deception of Satan, thus the great falling away, that Paul warned about in 2 Thessalonians 2.

 

[Timtofly]

You say this, but then quote just two scriptures, books apart.

The subject originally was "where the dead are" but moves into the day of the Lord.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"


I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

If you really were using "ALL" the word of God, why stop there? Paul hasn't. He is continuing on with the word "But" in chapter 5. Manuscripts did not have chapters,

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

You need to read all of those verses above to not lose context.

And we wouldn't even stop there (reading all of both books/letters of 1&2 Thess) Paul wrote a second letter because they were confused and thought that the day of Christ was at hand (imminent) and he corrects them. But the subject has never changed and he wants to nail timing of the day of the Lord/Day of Christ for them and says beware that we be not deceived.

In chapter 2 he addresses their confusion,

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

We can't just pull one scripture out of both books. We wouldn't read any other book that way so why would we do this with the Bible?

Iamlamad is not wrong. How would you define the second coming, when Christ has to leave for 3.5 years and come back the third time? Satan should not have 3.5 years, but that is the church's fault, not God's. The church cannot get her self right, much less all these false interpretations that the apostate church is teaching her congregations.