Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Andrewn]

In the Parable of the Weeds, the Lord said:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up the weeds first and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

The Rapture takes place after the Resurrection:

1Th 4:15-16 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

This sounds so clear and straightforward.

 

[eleos1954]

In the Parable of the Weeds, the Lord said:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up the weeds first and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

Mark 4:29
But when the grain is ripe, at once he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”

Revelation 14:14-16
Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.

 

[BobRyan]

In the Parable of the Weeds, the Lord said:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up the weeds first and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

The Rapture takes place after the Resurrection:

1Th 4:15-16 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

This sounds so clear and straightforward.

And of course -

Rev 14
First - the saints:
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Then -- the wicked
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.


Not ... "Then the wicked plus more saints"

===============

"The dead in Christ rise first" 1 Thess 4

At the "first resurrection" Rev 20:3-5

Which takes place at the Rev 19 -- second coming event

 

[BABerean2]

In the Parable of the Weeds, the Lord said:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up the weeds first and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

The Rapture takes place after the Resurrection:

1Th 4:15-16 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

This sounds so clear and straightforward.

The gathering of the Church is described at the end of chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5.
The words "we", and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the two chapters are connected.
See the video below produced by a former pretrib believer.

.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

In the Parable of the Weeds, the Lord said:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up the weeds first and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

The Rapture takes place after the Resurrection:

1Th 4:15-16 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

This sounds so clear and straightforward.

The judgement of this world begins with the judgement of God's house, Christians. The Great Tribulation is the judgement of this world. God will pour His wrath unto nations. Because Lord Jesus took this punishment for those who believe in Him, the Christians born in Spirit have been already judged in Christ, so there is no way Christians who were already forgiven in Christ, will be here during the tribulation. Therefore they have to be taken first. This is the mystery Paul talked about in 1 Cor. 15:51 'Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed'

You completely miss-understood 1. Th 4:15-16.
The order of events at the time of Christ’s coming is clearly given:
(1) The Lord will descend with a shout, accompanied by the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God (1 Cor. 15:52);
(2) The dead in Christ will be resurrected; and
(3) Then those remaining will be caught up with them in the clouds.

When the Lord descends into clouds, then the trumpet sounds and then in that moment, the dead in Christ will be take, and those alive will be taken after.

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Matthew 24:36-37)...it will it be like in the days of Noah. When Lord Jesus comes back on the Mount of Olives, it will be not like in the days of Noah. In the days of Noah, God brought the judgement of the world onto the world and told Noah to prepare an ark. Noah told everyone to repent, he told people what will happen but no one listened. Then he built the ark. Once it was finished an he was safe inside, only then the judgement of the world came. Then in that moment, when it started to rain for the first time ever, then people realised Noah was right and they quickly run to the ark and kept basing on it asking Noah to open for them so they can be saved. But it was already too late. The judgement of this world is coming, and the Lord Jesus is our ark. Whosoever believes in Him, will be saved. Many Christians the day of the rapture will be behind, because they loved their earthly live more than Lord Jesus, (these are the Christians in word only, but not at heart. They not been born in Spirit) and as a punishment they have to experience the Great Tribulation. In that moment the Christians left behind will realise they haven't truly believe in Jesus, and they will have a chance to repent by proclaiming Jesus' name and they will be killed because of it by antichrist. :That's what the Lord meant in Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The judgement of this world will start with the judgement of Christians. Who will be taken and who will be left behind. Those who love the Lord more than anything else will be taken, people who love their earthly lives more than Jesus will be left behind. Then the Great Tribulation starts, it cannot start sooner than that, because those who love Jesus, those who Jesus took the punishment for them have to be taken to Heaven so they do not experience it. Then the Great Tribulation happens and antichrist will reign. People will receive the mark of the beast. Christians left behind will realise what happened and those who repent will reject the mark and they will be killed because of it, all of them. They too will go to Heaven, but they will miss the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Every Christians is today invited to the Supper, but only those who get raptured will attend it, because they have accepted the invite. So everyone who is left behind and repents gets killed. The Great Tribulation will be worse than the flood and sodom and gomorah. Barely anyone will be left. Israel will actually agree a treaty with antichrisht and they will take him to their temple in Jerusalem. When they do, God will take a cloth from their eyes and they will finally see who they invited. And they will kick antichrist out. The antichrist gets angry and gathers all the military of the world against Israel. Armageddon starts and Israel has no escape, in that moment they finally repent who they pierced on the cross and accept Jesus as Messiah which was a condition For Jesus to return. Until they repent He will never return. Lord Jesus then descends with His holy ones on the Mount of Olives and finally destroys antichrist and then He establishes the Millenia Kingdom of God here on Earth and He will reside in Jerusalem.

 

[Andrewn]

You completely miss-understood 1. Th 4:15-16.
The order of events at the time of Christ’s coming is clearly given:
(1) The Lord will descend with a shout, accompanied by the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God (1 Cor. 15:52);
(2) The dead in Christ will be resurrected; and
(3) Then those remaining will be caught up with them in the clouds.

When the Lord descends into clouds, then the trumpet sounds and then in that moment, the dead in Christ will be take, and those alive will be taken after.

Is this different from what I wrote? Looks like you didn't understand what I wrote.

Your message is a long sermon based on absolutely no Biblical reality. One thing I agree with you about, though, is that God's children will be somehow protected during the Tribulation by the grace of God like Noah's family was protected and Christians were protected during the siege of Jerusalem. Christians will be sealed on their forehead (as Revelation says) but will _not_ be snatched to heaven.

Pretribulational rapture is a heresy that has infected the Church.

 

[eleos1954]

Is this different from what I wrote? Looks like you didn't understand what I wrote.

Your message is a long sermon based on absolutely no Biblical reality. One thing I agree with you about, though, is that God's children will be somehow protected during the Tribulation by the grace of God like Noah's family was protected and Christians were protected during the siege of Jerusalem. Christians will be sealed on their forehead (as Revelation says) but will _not_ be snatched to heaven.

Pretribulational rapture is a heresy that has infected the Church.

Matthew 34:22 - the great tribulation will be cut short

…21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect (believers), those days will be shortened.

All go through the great tribulation ... until the Lord returns ... and when He does this is what happens... the "rapture" is the 1st resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[keras]

Is this different from what I wrote? Looks like you didn't understand what I wrote.

Your message is a long sermon based on absolutely no Biblical reality. One thing I agree with you about, though, is that God's children will be somehow protected during the Tribulation by the grace of God like Noah's family was protected and Christians were protected during the siege of Jerusalem. Christians will be sealed on their forehead (as Revelation says) but will _not_ be snatched to heaven.

Pretribulational rapture is a heresy that has infected the Church.

I agree!

But regarding a 'rapture' we must be careful to correctly define it. Is it to heaven, as many like to think, or is it a simple removal to another earthy location?
The 'harpazo' in 1 Thess 4:17, is not to heaven, Jesus Returns to the earth and sends out His angels to bring His people to Him. As Matthew 24:31 plainly says.

Also we must be careful to note that 1 Thess 4:16 does NOT say that all the Christian dead will rise when Jesus Returns. We are indisputably told in Revelation 20:4-5, that when Jesus Returns He will bring the Trib martyrs; back to life.
ALL the rest of the dead must await the GWT Judgement, after the Millennium.

 

[Rachel20]

In the Parable of the Weeds, the Lord said:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up the weeds first and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

If this is a picture of the rapture, why do you see no translation of the church here? And if the rapture happens at the second coming, what is the purpose of the sheep & goat judgement since the sheep would have been translated?

 

[BobRyan]

The gathering of the Church is described at the end of chapter 4,

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

That is "the first resurrection"

And Rev 20:4-5 makes that clear - it happens at the Rev 19 second coming

John 14:1-3

 

[Timtofly]

Is this different from what I wrote? Looks like you didn't understand what I wrote.

Your message is a long sermon based on absolutely no Biblical reality. One thing I agree with you about, though, is that God's children will be somehow protected during the Tribulation by the grace of God like Noah's family was protected and Christians were protected during the siege of Jerusalem. Christians will be sealed on their forehead (as Revelation says) but will _not_ be snatched to heaven.

Pretribulational rapture is a heresy that has infected the Church.

So the Apostles Paul started a heresy? Should we stone those who accept the apostle Paul? You quote Paul, yet claim what he wrote is heretical? God on the throne and the Lamb open the skies and appear to all those on earth. This is before the Trumpets and before the Thunders. The first appearance is what no one on earth is expecting. The church is going to be in the temple with God. Not on earth nor heaven. God and the Lamb left heaven to fulfill the teachings of Jesus as in the separation of the sheep from the goats. The harvest of the wheat and the tares. This happens to living humans, not dead ones. Saying there is not a rapture, means the church is not the church. The majority of the church has died and has been with the Lamb in Paradise over the last 1990 years. The living never prevented their resurrection, but they have been all already resurrected. They are waiting for their robes of white. They get theirs in seal 5. The church alive on earth meet the Lamb in the air and get their robes of white in the 6th seal. That is the only reason those "left on earth" are still alive. They know they will be judged, because they were not raptured. Saying a rapture does not happen. Teaching a rapture does not happen. Failure to turn human hearts to Christ in preparation of a rapture. This is what produces humanity on earth who are left to be judged by God. Who is being heretical? Who is not doing their job? Those who deny the rapture and those who claim an amil stance. No one trust God these days. They lean on their own heretical teaching and own understanding. They turn the written Word into a falsehood, then refute any who point out their error.

 

[BobRyan]

If this is a picture of the rapture, why do you see no translation of the church here?

Matthew 24 has it.

I
And if the rapture happens at the second coming, what is the purpose of the sheep & goat judgement since the sheep would have been translated?

in 2 Peter 3 - the events of the 2nd coming and millennium and lake of fire are "collapsed" into one "day of the Lord" that is "as a 1000 years".

In Daniel 7 the division between sheep and goats where finally "Judgement is passed in favor of the saints" takes place before the 2nd coming around the end of 1260 years of dark-ages persecution of the saints.

In Rev 11 "judgment" begins while humans are on Earth.

In Rev 14:6-12 the final warning message to mankind on Earth begins with "the hour of His judgment has come" and this is a message that goes out before the Rev 19 second coming event.

In Rev 22 Jesus appears and "My reward is with Me" -- the determination has already been made.

 

[BobRyan]

Andrewn said: ↑
Is this different from what I wrote? Looks like you didn't understand what I wrote.

Your message is a long sermon based on absolutely no Biblical reality.

So the Apostles Paul started a heresy? Should we stone those who accept the apostle Paul? You quote Paul, yet claim what he wrote is heretical?

Where is "What Paul wrote is heretical" in the post you respond to??

 

[BobRyan]

I agree!

But regarding a 'rapture' we must be careful to correctly define it. Is it to heaven, as many like to think, or is it a simple removal to another earthy location?

It is to heaven

John 14
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Heb 11
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Heb 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,

 

[Timtofly]

Where is "What Paul wrote is heretical" in the post you respond to??

You cut it out. Why did you not post the whole quote?

 

[BobRyan]

Andrewn said: ↑
Is this different from what I wrote? Looks like you didn't understand what I wrote.

Your message is a long sermon based on absolutely no Biblical reality.

So the Apostles Paul started a heresy? Should we stone those who accept the apostle Paul? You quote Paul, yet claim what he wrote is heretical?

Where is "What Paul wrote is heretical" in the post you respond to??

Is this different from what I wrote? Looks like you didn't understand what I wrote.

Your message is a long sermon based on absolutely no Biblical reality. One thing I agree with you about, though, is that God's children will be somehow protected during the Tribulation by the grace of God like Noah's family was protected and Christians were protected during the siege of Jerusalem. Christians will be sealed on their forehead (as Revelation says) but will _not_ be snatched to heaven.

Pretribulational rapture is a heresy that has infected the Church.

You cut it out. Why did you not post the whole quote?

I was looking for the statement "what Paul wrote was heretical" as you claimed it was there did you not?

 

[Timtofly]

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

That is "the first resurrection"

And Rev 20:4-5 makes that clear - it happens at the Rev 19 second coming

John 14:1-3

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. It is the last Sunday of the Second Coming week. Jesus returns after the 3.5 year interruption of Satan. The Second Coming is the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. But it is not the first appearance on earth. The first appearance is in the 6th seal. The 144k are sealed between the 6th and 7th seal. The Lamb and the 144K are on earth for the 6 Trumpets and for the 7 Thunders that John was not supposed to tell us about. All living will die, and there is no burials. At times there will be rivers of blood. At times no one can die, but must live in suffering, until God says they will be harvested. But during this time of harvest, it does not state where souls go, if any where. This would be where souls are literally dead and have to be resurrected. Even resurrected to eternal damnation called Death with a capital D. This Death at the end of 1000 years is directly emptied into the lake of fire. Their names never found in the Lamb's book of life. Those fakes that Jesus said would be cast out into eternal darkness. They do not even stand at the GWT. But these are the tares and goats, left alive after the rapture of the church.

This includes the final harvest and those in Satan's 3.5 years with the mark 666. If the rapture does not happen before the harvest, no one is left alive to be raptured. All will be killed by either the 2 sickles of Revelation 14, or the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 16 finished in Revelation 19. Some will be beheaded of those who refuse to accept the mark 666. No one will be alive. Revelation 7 says the church is in the temple of God. The rapture can only happen at the opening of the 6th seal. Only 144K Jewish male virgins are sealed representing the only church on earth after the 7th seal is opened. Revelation 14 states they never leave the Lamb. Wherever the Lamb is, they are always doing what the Lamb does. In the case of the trumpets and thunders it is the harvest of the sheep and goats, wheat and tares.

All the while God is constantly judging those alive on the earth. That is great tribulation. But Satan's 3.5 years is The Great Tribulation. Satan judges the earth and makes a mockery of God, and makes a fool of himself. Humans will accept total destruction as being peaceful existence. The church would still be useless in this time frame, and still in the temple of God per Revelation 7. That is why the Lamb and the 144K are not even here. That is why the Lamb returns and fights the battle of Armageddon on the last Sunday after the 2 witnesses ascended into heaven. All humanity dies in this battle. All are resurrected on Monday. Some are placed in Death for 1000 years. Some will reign with Christ for 1000 years. That is the first resurrection in Revelation 20.

The only other mass resurrection was at the cross when Jesus Christ led those in Abraham's bosom out of sheol. They were then taken to Paradise. All in Christ according to Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 have been going to Paradise on an individual basis. But those alive in Christ, at the opening of the 6th seal, will be raptured to Paradise, the temple of God.

 

[Timtofly]

Where is "What Paul wrote is heretical" in the post you respond to??

I was looking for the statement "what Paul wrote was heretical" as you claimed it was there did you not?

Paul declares a pre-trib rapture because the church has already been judged on the cross. Calling a pre-trib rapture a heresy is calling Paul a heretical teacher. The tribulation is the harvest of the sheep and goats, and the wheat and tares. This is the time of harvest Jesus taught in the Gospels. The church is not on earth when the Lamb is on the earth. Yes, 11 disciples remained to start the NT church. In the tribulation after the church leaves, only the sealed 144K Jewish male virgins are the Lamb's disciples on earth during the harvest of those alive on the earth. That is evident in Revelation 7 and Revelation 14. To deny that the Lamb is present, is to deny all of Jesus' teachings in the Gospels. This time of tribulation is the harvest at the end, after the gathering of the church. It happens now. The only events at the other end of the last 1000 years is the battle of Gog and Megog and the GWT. The false teaching is that the earth will end soon. What verse says the earth is going to end soon?

 

[Douggg]

I can understand that some may disagree over the pre-trib timing. But I don't understand the hatred some people have against it.

 

[keras]

It is to heaven

But NONE of your Bible quotes say that the Lord will actually take His people to live in heaven. That idea is never stated in the Bible and Jesus says it is impossible. John 3:13

I can understand that some may disagree over the pre-trib timing. But I don't understand the hatred some people have against it.

We who refute a 'rapture to heaven' do not 'hate' those who have fallen for that lie, we are concerned for your safety when dramatic events happen and you are still here.
Sadly, then; those with little faith in the Lords protection, may fall away from their faith.

Our message is: keep your belief, I understand how hard it is to change now, but keep in mind that if you do remain on earth; you must not let go of your faith in Jesus, you must trust in His protection, as He has Promised.