Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

[BobRyan]

I think we are still stuck on when Satan and the false prophet brought an image to life, and humanity died because time had expired. Seems like that would be in the news, that people had 666 branded on their foreheads?

My claim is that that is in the future.

My claim is that we are about half way through vs 11

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb.................. and spoke like a dragon.

Has not yet spoken like a dragon
Has not yet called fire down from heaven
has not yet created laws to get all mankind to worship the first beast.

 

[Timtofly]

My claim is that that is in the future.

My claim is that we are about half way through vs 11

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb.................. and spoke like a dragon.

Has not yet spoken like a dragon
Has not yet called fire down from heaven
has not yet created laws to get all mankind to worship the first beast.

Satan has not established the false prophet. That is the first beast. That is why I mentioned the false prophet. The point is, this is not going to even happen, until the 7th Trumpet sounds and Jesus Christ rides into Jerusalem in triumph. When Jesus Christ sets up in Jerusalem, then Satan is going to give the world his false prophet. It is also the same time Satan is kicked out of heaven, because Jesus Christ is setting up in Jerusalem. Now Satan is furious. Satan is a literal beast at this point. The false prophet will be a literal human at this point. They will enter Jerusalem demanding to be heard. If Satan and the FP are allowed the 3.5 years, they will set up the image as the abomination of desolation. The Great Tribulation will begin. The week will be cut in half and Thursday, Friday, and Saturday will be the 3.5 days the two witnesses will lay dead in Jerusalem at the end of the 3.5 years. Jesus Christ and his 144K disciples leave Jerusalem and return at the battle of Armageddon.

That is what John is witnessing and the characters involved. John describes that only Satan and the false prophet are the beast that Daniel and Paul described. Daniel 11 and 2 Thessalonians 2. Satan established the false prophet as a Greek King. Paul mentions both Satan and the FP in his warning that even the church would be deceived, along with the whole world. Paul reiterated Daniel. John reiterated both Daniel and Paul.

 

[BobRyan]

Satan has not established the false prophet.

Did you already see this?

The term "false prophet" is not in Rev 13... however you do find it in Rev 16:13, 19:20 and 20:10 Where 19:20 links back to Rev 13 last half.

Rev 19:20
And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

The Lamb-like beast of Rev 13 operates as is described in Rev 19:20

Rev 13
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. 12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of men. (NKJV)

14 And he (The Lamb-like beast) deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.


We might actually agree here as well - that this entity mentioned in 19:20 is described just that way in Rev 13:11-14

 

[keras]

People won't ascend into heaven, the will be taken by angels. They do the gathering- just like they take our souls to Heaven. Elijah went to heaven, God took Enoch to heaven-it is assumed. Moses was shown on the mount of transfiguration.

When we get our new bodies we can live in both the spiritual realm and the material. That is how Jesus just appeared in the room with the disciples, IMO. The spiritual realm is another dimension and how angels watch what is going on and how John viewed both the things going on in Heaven, and the earth. It's closer than we think, IMO.

God the Father is spirit but we will see His face, according to Rev 22. He walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, Moses saw His back.

This is how we will serve God in the MK, but also be able to live in the Heavenly city, in our dwelling place.

Don't you realize what unbelievable ideas these are?
Sci-fi like Starship Enterprise don't make their 'beam me up' to be real, but you actually believe you will be taken to heaven by the angels. Incredible and beyond fairy tales!
But Paul did say that many would fall for fables, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Immortality is only conferred AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15 Jesus said six times that humans never go to heaven, eventually God and therefore heaven, will come to us. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[Timtofly]

Did you already see this?

That is what is said. Who was alive before Jesus was even born, other than Satan and the FP? Both are beast. Both are named in Revelation 19. The beast is never named. The beast and FP was sent to the lake of fire. Satan was bound for 1000 years. The beast was never named because it is the image, the abomination of desolation. The being that was given life and proclaimed the Messiah. How do you kill a living machine which is a beast other than placing it into the lake of fire?

None of these beast for 3 years are nations. One is brought back to the living since dying before Jesus was born. That is not Satan. That is the FP. Satan is the other unamed beast who has never died, nor is a human. He just has a human "Greek god" body. Satan is the one who gave the FP his Greek kingdom. Satan is the one that brings this singular human back into a living body. The beast is never a human past or present. The beast can only be the abomination of desolation. The image that Satan uses to convince those on earth is their Messiah.

It all has to do with labor and economy. Satan is here to make life easier or so he claims. God claims Adam's punishment of labor by the sweat of the brow is over, finished. The church is complete. Adam's descendants restored to the Garden of Eden, Paradise, near the throne of God. Those who are not beheaded at this time, are branded with 666. All go straight to the lake of fire. Their names never found in the Lamb's book of life. They are resurrected to eternal damnation, Death. They are not found in the Lamb's book of life when Death gives them up at the GWT.

We cannot be in this period yet. Your verses say what I just posted. Chapter 13 is not just a history lesson about how Satan and the FP arrived. It is a future event as well that has not happened. For one Jesus and God are not seen by any human at the moment. Until that happens in the 6th seal, nothing after chapter 6 has happened, except the FP died over 2000 years ago. Satan has been deceiving humanity for 2500 years. That has happened. The harvest has not started other than covid19 has been killing people for months, and for a while the economy was effected. It is not going to get any better.

 

[Timtofly]

Don't you realize what unbelievable ideas these are?
Sci-fi like Starship Enterprise don't make their 'beam me up' to be real, but you actually believe you will be taken to heaven by the angels. Incredible and beyond fairy tales!
But Paul did say that many would fall for fables, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Immortality is only conferred AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15 Jesus said six times that humans never go to heaven, eventually God and therefore heaven, will come to us. Revelation 21:1-7

This view seems to put your theology into the pre-mill second coming and the post mill rapture.

 

[keras]

This view seems to put your theology into the pre-mill second coming and the post mill rapture.

Sort of right; only I would never call the 'harpazo' of 1 Thess 4:17, a 'rapture'.
That gathering is the same one as Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24:31

Isn't it very obvious that Jesus must Return, for Him to be the King over the earth, for the next 1000 years?

 

[Timtofly]

Sort of right; only I would never call the 'harpazo' of 1 Thess 4:17, a 'rapture'.
That gathering is the same one as Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24:31

Isn't it very obvious that Jesus must Return, for Him to be the King over the earth, for the next 1000 years?

I just know the rapture happens first, not in 1002+ years from now. The seals have to do with the church and the Lamb's book of life. Once the 7th seal is opened the book can be opened. It is no longer sealed. When it is opened does not signify much other than after the 7th seal it may remain open, and never shut again for 1002+ years. Names can be removed after the 7th seal is removed. The point is it has never been opened once, because it has been sealed. It was written and sealed at the Alter on the day of Atonement. The day all of Adam's descendants were redeemed and all names were written down, and then sealed up and placed before creation even happened.

 

[keras]

I just know the rapture happens first, not in 1002+ years from now.

Well then; you just know something that the Bible does not teach.
Good luck with that!

 

[BABerean2]

Names can be removed after the 7th seal is removed. The point is it has never been opened once, because it has been sealed.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.


Jesus opened the seal during the first century, so that John could see what was under the seal.
John then records what he saw.

.

 

[BobRyan]

That is what is said. Who was alive before Jesus was even born, other than Satan and the FP?

4000 years of history before Jesus was born on Earth - incarnate as human.

So then a lot of mankind.
all the good angels
all the bad angels
etc -- were all there before Jesus on Earth.

I don't understand your point here

And at that point I can't follow your other ideas... my point was that in Rev 13 there is no "FP" False Prophet statement... we only find that in Rev 19:20 using terms that you find in Rev 13 starting at vs 11... not before vs 11.

 

[Running2win]

Don't you realize what unbelievable ideas these are?
Sci-fi like Starship Enterprise don't make their 'beam me up' to be real, but you actually believe you will be taken to heaven by the angels. Incredible and beyond fairy tales!
But Paul did say that many would fall for fables, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Immortality is only conferred AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15 Jesus said six times that humans never go to heaven, eventually God and therefore heaven, will come to us. Revelation 21:1-7

Well, I guess you don't believe the Bible then. What can I say? Jesus taught angels take our souls to heaven, are you going to disagree with Him? Angels are His worker servants. They do the gathering of resurrected bodies at the parousia. Put two and two together.

24“But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26“Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27“And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven



19“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20“And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Timtofly]

4000 years of history before Jesus was born on Earth - incarnate as human.

So then a lot of mankind.
all the good angels
all the bad angels
etc -- were all there before Jesus on Earth.

I don't understand your point here

And at that point I can't follow your other ideas... my point was that in Rev 13 there is no "FP" False Prophet statement... we only find that in Rev 19:20 using terms that you find in Rev 13 starting at vs 11... not before vs 11.

Revelation 13 introduces Daniel's beast as an historical note, the "brought back to life" false prophet. Then John introduces Paul's deceiver, Satan himself. John only names two beings, who were beast, in Revelation 13. In Revelation 12, we see Satan as the dragon, in Revelation 13, Satan was the beast that spoke with a dragons voice, Then John in Revelation 16:13 calls out the dragon and the FP. In Revelation 20:2 the dragon is called by all it's names.

 

[keras]

Well, I guess you don't believe the Bible then

That is a 'flaming' accusation.
But I won't report you, as you say it from ignorance of me and of what the Bible actually does teach.

Jesus taught angels take our souls to heaven, are you going to disagree with Him? Angels are His worker servants. They do the gathering of resurrected bodies at the parousia.

Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thess 4:17 both refer to the Return of Jesus to the earth, to reign as King for 1000 years.
The Church going to heaven is not mentioned there, or anywhere else.

Why do you believe it?

 

[Running2win]

That is a 'flaming' accusation.
But I won't report you, as you say it from ignorance of me and of what the Bible actually does teach.

Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thess 4:17 both refer to the Return of Jesus to the earth, to reign as King for 1000 years.
The Church going to heaven is not mentioned there, or anywhere else.

Why do you believe it?

Report me if you want, I know the truth, and I used to be in error too. You are isolating Scripture and not putting them together as the other guy pointed out in his post because it don't fit with what you been taught. I've been there. And as a matter of fact, both those Scriptures does not say that. They both indicate in the air, sky, atmosphere, so not on earth. Why? I know why, because He does not touch down at this time, but He does in both Mat 25:31, and Rev 19. In Rev 19 He already has bloody robes so He must have been taking out the trash even before Rev 19 too.

Mat 24 is the parousia. Just study that word out ( it's in all the resurrection/rapture second coming passages) and if you drop your biases, you will find that Mat 24 is the time frame, and Jesus Himself gives it to us. There can't be any other time where it can happen or Jesus is a liar-which is impossible. It means presence. That word is not used in Mat 25 or Rev 19, because this is when He returns to take possession of the earth. Two different events.

But presence is used in Rev 6:16, with the same three signs of Mat 24. And this is before the wrath of God begins. So what are we to conclude?

We are rescued from the wrath to come. What wrath? The day of the Lords wrath. Why are the people hiding in Rev 6 and what is about to happen? Contrast that with Rev 19, when they are ready to fight the King. Two different events.

 

[Timtofly]

We are rescued from the wrath to come. What wrath? The day of the Lords wrath. Why are the people hiding in Rev 6 and what is about to happen? Contrast that with Rev 19, when they are ready to fight the King. Two different events.

The 6th seal will be a shock to about 99% of humanity. That is why they are afraid. 5 years later, any one still left alive will just be ultimately defiant. Most, if not all will be marked with 666, only brute beast, no longer even human.

That is why God says only two witnesses are on earth. Jesus nor the 144K are here. Why would there be any sane humans left, much less saints? It is a harvest where all humanity dies.

 

[Running2win]

The 6th seal will be a shock to about 99% of humanity. That is why they are afraid. 5 years later, any one still left alive will just be ultimately defiant. Most, if not all will be marked with 666, only brute beast, no longer even human.

That is why God says only two witnesses are on earth. Jesus nor the 144K are here. Why would there be any sane humans left, much less saints? It is a harvest where all humanity dies.

Hmm..

 

[keras]

We are rescued from the wrath to come. What wrath? The day of the Lords wrath. Why are the people hiding in Rev 6 and what is about to happen? Contrast that with Rev 19, when they are ready to fight the King. Two different events.

No; we are PROTECTED from the wrath to come. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 50:1-6, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Psalms 31:23-24, +
We must endure through it all, but the Lord will keep His own safe. Revelation 13:9-10

There is no resurrection/rapture in the Bible until after the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15

 

[Running2win]

No; we are PROTECTED from the wrath to come. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 50:1-6, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Psalms 31:23-24, +
We must endure through it all, but the Lord will keep His own safe. Revelation 13:9-10

There is no resurrection/rapture in the Bible until after the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15

Don't see how you get that when Paul gives us the order of the resurrection: Christ, at His coming (parousia), and the end-the end of the MK, when He hands the Kingdom over to the Father?
And these verses seem to tell us we are not destined to wrath, and we are saved and rescued from it. Just saying. I kinda like the sound of that myself.

20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

 

[keras]

Don't see how you get that when Paul gives us the order of the resurrection: Christ, at His coming (parousia), and the end-the end of the MK, when He hands the Kingdom over to the Father?

Paul did not say; all would be resurrected when Jesus Returns.
Revelation 20:4-5 specifies exactly who; The martyrs killed during the Great Trib; the 3 1/2 year period of Satan's rule. The rest of the dead must await the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.

And these verses seem to tell us we are not destined to wrath, and we are saved and rescued from it. Just saying. I kinda like the sound of that myself.

The Prayer of Azariah:
This prayer is an addition to the Greek version of the Book of Daniel. It is inserted in chapter 3 between verses 23 and 24. Azariah, the Hebrew name of Shadrach, with his friends, Meshach and Abed-nego, were thrown into the fiery furnace because they refused to bow down to Nebuchadnezzar’s golden image.

The prayer of Azariah 1:2-23
They walked in the midst of the fire, praising God. Azariah stood among the flames and began to pray aloud: Blessed are You and worthy of praise, Y’hovah, the God of our fathers, Your Name is glorious forever. Just is the sentence in all that You have brought on Your people and upon Jerusalem, the holy city of our ancestors, true and just is the sentence You have passed on us because of our sins. We had broken Your Laws in rebellion, we did not heed Your Commandments, we failed to do what You had given us for our own good. Now You have handed us over to our enemies, those wicked peoples and so we are reduced to silence, shame and disgrace has befallen Your people.

For the sake of Your honor do not abandon us forever, do not annul Your Covenant. Do not withdraw Your mercy from us, for the sake of Abraham; Your friend, for the sake of Isaac; Your servant and for Israel; Your holy one. You promised them that their descendants would be as numerous as sand on the seashore. Yet, Lord, we are all now in exile, for our sins we are brought low. Now we have no ruler, no prophet, there is no place we can make offerings to obtain mercy. But because we come with a contrite heart and a humbled spirit, may we be accepted? As though we come with thousands of whole offerings, let this sacrifice be made before You this Day: that we will obey You in everything, for no shame will come to those who put their trust in You. We will now follow You with our whole heart and in fear seek Your Presence. Do not put us to shame, but deal with us in Your forbearance and great mercy. Y’hovah, Creator of all things, deliver us and let Your Name be glorified.

May all who harm Your servants be brought low, let them be stripped of all power and sovereignty and may their strength be crushed. Let them know that You alone are the Lord God, glorious over all the earth. Ref: REB Apocrypha

The three friends said to King Nebuchadnezzar:
Daniel 3:17 If there is a God who is able to save us from the blazing furnace; it is our God, whom we serve, He will deliver us.

Now, as we near the end of the Church era, the Lord will once again take action in His creation, with the many prophesied judgement of fire, that will destroy His enemies.
But to those who call on His Name, who have a contrite heart and a humble spirit, those who put their trust in God, then when the terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath strikes the earth with ‘blazing heat and consuming fire’, then this prayer would be one to pray with fervent sincerity.
Zephaniah 2:3, Isaiah 43:1-4, 1 Peter 1:5,