Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

[BobRyan]

Because the church already resurrected with Christ on the cross. .

Nope - the first resurrection of Rev 20 has not happened because the second coming event Rev 19-20 has not happened yet. Nor has the seven last plagues of Rev 16 happened.

We are currently in the time of the Rev 14's - three angels messages and also we are nearing the last part of Rev 13.

 

[Timtofly]

This is all mixed up. It is GOD who will give the Beast 42 months of control. Would you try and go against God's plans? Anyway, the church will NOT BE HERE during the time Satan through the Beast has control.

Hmm. Split in half? Jesus will come pretrib FOR His saints, then post posttrib WITH His saints.
FOR His saints will be his second coming (only to the air).
WITH His saints will be His 3rd coming. He touches down.

Did God plan for Satan to tempt Eve? Did God plan for Eve to hand the fruit to Adam? Did God plan for Adam to disobey? Does God plan to let Satan be in charge? I do not know. I do know that by God all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. What was Adam's purpose?


Jesus comes back after Satan's 3.5 years to bring an end to the week that was started before Satan was allowed time. There is no mid trib. Soon Jesus will be here as the Lamb in seal 6. Then the harvest will finish up this 3.5 year period leading up to the Second Coming week. We are not told during the Trumpets and Thunders if the Lamb comes and goes. Jesus did not come and go during the first 3.5 years spent on earth. This time will be even shorter. There is a celebration week for the end of harvest marriage event. The event that gets moved into heaven because it is interrupted by Satan's time. This week is to mark the end of the 6000 year punishment handed to Adam's descendants. Some humans do not want to give up the old life. That is what the mark 666 is for. It is also the end of the church being able to do her duty. The church is complete, the bride is ready. This celebration week was the end, so the last Lord's Day would be ushered in. Humans on earth would remember the Sabbath for 1000 years. Not totally perfect, but glorious.

So why is this week being interrupted? Would not a fully gathered bride be enough to rob Satan of souls? 2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This comes right before the other warning that coincides with the death at the end of Satan's 3.5 years. There will be no warning for seal 6. But we know that we failed to get it right, because our harvest is finished. What the church reaped now, will determine who is killed in the battle of Armageddon. And the souls at Armageddon will never be part of the church. It is crazy to think that any on earth, left, will not be tares. Many women and children will turn to the Lamb in the harvest. God already said, "except one comes as a child." I think that only hardened men and women will be in the final battle. But even in Satan's 3.5 years, some will choose to be beheaded. But the warning is for the church to be prepared before this all happens. Not in the seconds before the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Timtofly]

Nope - the first resurrection of Rev 20 has not happened because the second coming event Rev 19-20 has not happened yet. Nor has the seven last plagues of Rev 16 happened.

We are currently in the time of the Rev 14's - three angels messages and also we are nearing the last part of Rev 13.

So we have heard 7 trumpets? Do you have the text of the 7 thunders?

 

[keras]

Not according to the text.

2 Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, (NOT the saints)

7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (Not the saints)


9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (NOT the saints)

Sneaky; Bob.
You left off 2 Thess 1:10, which goes on to say how He will reveal His glory ONLY to His own people, His believing Christian followers.
So this prophecy cannot be for the Return of Jesus. It is the Sixth Seal event and Revelation 7; the gathering of all the Lords people follows.

 

[iamlamad]

Because Christ comes as a thief in Revelation 16:15-16, we know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

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Why is it you know things that are not truth? OF COURSE Revelation is in chronological order. ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit - will be proven wrong. For example, anyone who says the 7th trumpet sounds at the 6th seal will certainly be proven wrong. Anyone who says any vial is poured out when any trumpet sounds will be proven wrong.

Why can Jesus warn of His coming just before He comes, and it be OUT of order? OF COURSE it is in proper order: God knows the future and knows what order things will happen.

 

[iamlamad]

Not according to the text.

2 Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, (NOT the saints)

7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (Not the saints)


9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (NOT the saints)



vs 6 "Those who afflict you" -- are NOT the saints and it is THEY who are meeting that payback at the second coming

vs 7 "dealing out retribution to those who do not know God " -- are most certainly NOT saints
yet it is they that will see Him dealing out retribution to THEM at the 2nd coming

retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction

All of that refers to "not the saints". which I think we all would agree is an obvious detail so far.

So not only are the saints being rewarded at the 2nd coming - but so also do the living wicked get their just reward - the reward of punishment.

Paul is telling the saints in 2Thess 1 - what will happen at the 2nd coming... as we all can see.

I agree with you. His next coming is only to the air, FOR His saints, and there will be no fire. What there will be is the worldwide earthquake (Paul's sudden destruction) of the 6th seal: the start of the Day of the Lord. No fire - yet. the 70th week is soon to start - at the 7th seal.

 

[iamlamad]

Because Christ comes as a thief in Revelation 16:15-16, we know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

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Which coming? He is coming TWICE more: if you don't know that yet....

 

[iamlamad]

Nope - the first resurrection of Rev 20 has not happened because the second coming event Rev 19-20 has not happened yet. Nor has the seven last plagues of Rev 16 happened.

We are currently in the time of the Rev 14's - three angels messages and also we are nearing the last part of Rev 13.

Sorry, Bob, but you missed it here, big time.

First, you are picturing this "first" resurrection as in TIME: the time of chapter 20, after the 70th week is over. God does not place it in time, but it HONOR: it is first in HONOR for it is the resurrection for the righteous (The same Greek word was also translated as "chief"). Jesus was the firstfruits of that resurrection. Will you then say that the "first" resurrection happened at Christ's resurrection? No, because it happens OVER time: Christ the firstfruits, then the church, then the 144,000, then the Old Testament saints along with the Two Witnesses and the beheaded saints - ALL will take part in this CHIEF of resurrections.

You are correct though, that the events of chapter 20 are not going to come until the events of chapter 19 are finished. And of course, the plagues must happen (chapter 16) before the events of chapter 19.

Next, we are not in chapter 14, for that is a MIDPOINT chapter of the 70th week. The week has not started: it will begin at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment. NO trumpet has sounded yet. So we have not arrived yet at the 7th seal. Neither has there ever been a worldwide earthquake such as at the 6th seal, and we know - or SHOULD know - the Day of the Lord has not started yet.

The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age: are martyrs still taking place? Certainly they are - and God is looking for that final one. Therefore, the church is at the 5th seal and has been at least since Stephen was martyred. We are waiting on the pretrib rapture that will END the church age, and START the Day of the Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, Bob, but you missed it here, big time.

First, you are picturing this "first" resurrection as in TIME:

Because the text is speaking in reference to time, and sequence, length of time and events.

If you did not have any bias against the text, and were reading it for the first time I think we all would agree you would see these time elements in the text and agree "yep.. this text that I am seeing for the first time... it is speaking of events in time, length of time.. "

Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

All terms relative to time and sequence.


7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

The text speaks explicitly of time, of events, of sequence.

This is irrefutable.

 

[iamlamad]

Because the text is speaking in reference to time, and sequence, length of time and events.

If you did not have any bias against the text, and were reading it for the first time I think we all would agree you would see these time elements in the text and agree "yep.. this text that I am seeing for the first time... it is speaking of events in time, length of time.. "

Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

All terms relative to time and sequence.


7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

The text speaks explicitly of time, of events, of sequence.

This is irrefutable.

You are right, as far as you go here.
All I am saying is, "FIRST" as in the first resurrection - is not about TIME: it is about honor.

There is ONE (count only 1) resurrection for the righteous over ALL TIME.

In other words, it would be improper to say NO OTHER resurrection can happen before this timeframe of Rev. 20 AFTER Christ has come. The truth is, Jesus was the firstfruits of this resurrection.

 

[BABerean2]

Which coming? He is coming TWICE more: if you don't know that yet....

Man said vs. God said...

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.

 

[BobRyan]

You are right, as far as you go here.
All I am saying is, "FIRST" as in the first resurrection - is not about TIME: it is about honor.

Christ's resurrection is the "first resurrection" in honor according to 1 Cor 15.

John is specifically speaking to events at the 2nd coming. Future to John. First in time looking forward

 

[BobRyan]

==========================================
DESOLATE Earth during Millennium.. due to the Second Coming:

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
...21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.

20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.



The mere quote of the texts - is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to them


Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Quoting texts is fine; telling us what you think they say, when they really don't, is not fine.

99.99% Bible texts... I just noted one or two details. And that fine.

 

[BobRyan]

So we have heard 7 trumpets? Do you have the text of the 7 thunders?

Rev 2-3 takes all church ages all through time from John's day - to today. We are in the last church age.

Rev 5-6 and Rev 8:1 - the seven seals cover events from John's day to the second coming. We are near the end of that

Rev 8-9 and Rev 11:15 seven trumpets -- that's a good question.. might all still be future.

Rev 13 - we are nearing the end of the chapter

Rev 14 - we are nearing the end

 

[Timtofly]

Rev 2-3 takes all church ages all through time from John's day - to today. We are in the last church age.

Rev 5-6 and Rev 8:1 - the seven seals cover events from John's day to the second coming. We are near the end of that

Rev 8-9 and Rev 11:15 seven trumpets -- that's a good question.. might all still be future.

Rev 13 - we are nearing the end of the chapter

Rev 14 - we are nearing the end

I agree that the first 5 chapters are in the past. However we are not at the end of certain chapters. There is no False Prophet who has "wowed" the whole world. That is the beginning of chapter 13. Chapter 14 starts out with 144K literal humans. That cannot happen until after the opening of seal 5 and 6. Yes the trumpets are still future and will definitely happen. The 7th Trumpet sounds last, not first. Chapter 13 and 14 are included in the continuous blast of the 7th Trumpet. This Trumpet's sound lasts for days, not a single short blast.

 

[Running2win]

It is to heaven

John 14
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Heb 11
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Heb 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,

Nice point! Yeah, it is to heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that the first 5 chapters are in the past. However we are not at the end of certain chapters. There is no False Prophet who has "wowed" the whole world.

Well then apparently we also agree on that as well.

That is the beginning of chapter 13.

The term "false prophet" is not in Rev 13... however you do find it in Rev 16:13, 19:20 and 20:10 Where 19:20 links back to Rev 13 last half.

Rev 19:20
And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

The Lamb-like beast of Rev 13 operates as is described in Rev 19:20

Rev 13
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. 12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of men. (NKJV)

14 And he (The Lamb-like beast) deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.


We might actually agree here as well - that this entity mentioned in 19:20 is described just that way in Rev 13:11-14

 

[BobRyan]

Chapter 14 starts out with 144K literal humans.

Yes literal humans.

That cannot happen until after the opening of seal 5 and 6.

6th seal is the second coming so the 144,000 are assembled before that .. in fact they have to be fully identified by the time of Rev 16 where we have the 7 last plagues because in Rev 15:8 probation for mankind is closed (let him who is filthy be filthy still) where the sanctuary in heaven is shut down. Christ is our intercessor in heaven (Heb 8:1-4, 1 John 2:1) and when that ministry ends - there is no more salvation, no more crossing over from lost-to-saved. Everyone remains as they are at that point.

As for the time of the 5th seal - we are in that time now and the 144000 are still in our future or are being sealed now but it is not yet complete.

Yes the trumpets are still future and will definitely happen.

I consider that a distinct possibility

Chapter 13 and 14 are included in the continuous blast of the 7th Trumpet. This Trumpet's sound lasts for days, not a single short blast.

We are more than half way into Rev 13 already. The 1260 years of dark ages mentioned in Rev 11 and in Rev 12 and in Rev 13 are already over.

 

[Running2win]

But NONE of your Bible quotes say that the Lord will actually take His people to live in heaven. That idea is never stated in the Bible and Jesus says it is impossible. John 3:13

We who refute a 'rapture to heaven' do not 'hate' those who have fallen for that lie, we are concerned for your safety when dramatic events happen and you are still here.
Sadly, then; those with little faith in the Lords protection, may fall away from their faith.

Our message is: keep your belief, I understand how hard it is to change now, but keep in mind that if you do remain on earth; you must not let go of your faith in Jesus, you must trust in His protection, as He has Promised.

People won't ascend into heaven, the will be taken by angels. They do the gathering- just like they take our souls to Heaven. Elijah went to heaven, God took Enoch to heaven-it is assumed. Moses was shown on the mount of transfiguration.

When we get our new bodies we can live in both the spiritual realm and the material. That is how Jesus just appeared in the room with the disciples, IMO. The spiritual realm is another dimension and how angels watch what is going on and how John viewed both the things going on in Heaven, and the earth. It's closer than we think, IMO.

God the Father is spirit but we will see His face, according to Rev 22. He walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, Moses saw His back.

This is how we will serve God in the MK, but also be able to live in the Heavenly city, in our dwelling place.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes literal humans.
6th seal is the second coming so the 144,000 are assembled before that .. in fact they have to be fully identified by the time of Rev 16 where we have the 7 last plagues because in Rev 15:8 probation for mankind is closed (let him who is filthy be filthy still) where the sanctuary in heaven is shut down. Christ is our intercessor in heaven (Heb 8:1-4, 1 John 2:1) and when that ministry ends - there is no more salvation, no more crossing over from lost-to-saved. Everyone remains as they are at that point.

As for the time of the 5th seal - we are in that time now and the 144000 are still in our future or are being sealed now but it is not yet complete.
I consider that a distinct possibility
We are more than half way into Rev 13 already. The 1260 years of dark ages mentioned in Rev 11 and in Rev 12 and in Rev 13 are already over.

I think we are still stuck on when Satan and the false prophet brought an image to life, and humanity died because time had expired. Seems like that would be in the news, that people had 666 branded on their foreheads?