LDS The Strait Gate and Narrow Way: Celestial Marriage

[Rescued One]

You are mistaken about what is a sin. If a person chooses to remain single, that is his or her choice. I will keep them from the highest level of the Celestial kingdom, but not from being exalted. You continue to make this mistake. So now that you know, just stop it.

No, your post was misleading! It is a sin (per Mormonism) to disobey the Mormon commandments. Why do you try to refute LDS scriptures?

Doctrine and Covenants 132
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
Doctrine and Covenants 132

It makes no sense to me when those who want to discredit ex-Mormons deny their own scriptures. Why are you doing this?

Perhaps you should spend less time at CF and read the Doctrine and Covenants and some of your church lesson manuals.

 

[He is the way]

With regard to Polygamy. Mormons don't practice polygamy and their members, on pain of excommunication (as I understand it), from marrying multiple partners. Obviously Polygamy at this moment is an immoral action, unjustifiable and contrary to God's law. At least per Mormonism today.

As regards Genesis, how is this a general commandment? As in, everyone has to do it or get punished for not listening to God? Why would then Paul recommend that it is good not to marry? Why does he seem to think that our interests are divided between our spouse and God?

I'm not sure we're really having a conversation at this point. You just keep repeating the same points as if it vindicates and answers what I've said. Is there any point continuing if you're not going address at least some of my concerns directly? Earlier I mentioned there seems to be a quadrilateral division of required love within Mormonism. That is, to achieve the highest salvation five entities are required to love each other equally. Heavenly Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Husband and the wife.

If the love of the wife is missing the man cannot achieve the highest exaltation. You also haven't addressed my Idea of the possibility that Jesus being celibate means he could have attained the highest exaltation in that state. Can you at least admit, until your Mormon leadership clarifies, that it is possible for the celibate and unmarried to attain the highest exaltation?

At the present time polygamy is not allowed in The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. God decides when and where it is allowed.

The law to multiply and replenish the earth was also given to Noah:

(Old Testament | Genesis 9:1)

1 AND God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth

Has it been taken away?

I believe that Jesus was married while He was on earth. That is my personal opinion and not doctrine of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

At the present time polygamy is not allowed in The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. God decides when and where it is allowed.

The law to multiply and replenish the earth was also given to Noah:

(Old Testament | Genesis 9:1)

1 AND God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth

Has it been taken away?

I believe that Jesus was married while He was on earth. That is my personal opinion and not doctrine of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

You keep mentioning that the command in Genesis is a law, as in a commandment, but this is not established. To suggest it is a law would be to implicate those who are deliberately celibate as committing sin. That is, if you decide not to marry you have committed a sin. How can Paul then recommend generally that it is good to not marry? You earlier tried to claim Paul was speaking too missionaries but the text nowhere implies this. Instead, what Paul is saying is in the context of advice he is giving to the Corinthians generally. He implies it is better to be dedicated to God alone, than to have one's interests divided between your wife and God. How do Mormons deal with that text? You've mentioned a Trilateral love, which I don't deny exists, but I would deny (along with Paul) is better than complete love and dedication to God alone.

At this point of our conversation, I don't see how you can arrive at a Mormon interpretation of Saint Paul. I've seen no real interaction with Paul in general, only a proof text from here and assumptions. I wonder, do you at least understand why the Christian tradition read Paul as it did? That Mormonism doesn't arise naturally out of the text but would seem to have been revealed with Joseph Smith?

Regarding Jesus; if he didn't marry during his life then he committed a sin if a so called law of marriage is necessary for each and every individual. Now I understand you might believe Jesus was married, but this is a belief which is forced upon you by theology and not history. It seems inexcusable that the widow of Jesus or any potential family should be completely omitted from the bible and the early Church entirely. Not even heretics maintained he was married. We have more evidence that Peter was married than Jesus. Still, this is only your opinion and you would have to admit it is perfectly acceptable for a Mormon to believe Jesus was not married and that he achieved the highest exaltation. Now if the latter is a possible belief within Mormonism, doesn't this negate the Idea that marriage is necessary to achieve the highest exaltation? The LDS haven't settled this question therefore the possibility alone makes it a plausible belief within the LDS framework.

 

[He is the way]

You keep mentioning that the command in Genesis is a law, as in a commandment, but this is not established. To suggest it is a law would be to implicate those who are deliberately celibate as committing sin. That is, if you decide not to marry you have committed a sin. How can Paul then recommend generally that it is good to not marry? You earlier tried to claim Paul was speaking too missionaries but the text nowhere implies this. Instead, what Paul is saying is in the context of advice he is giving to the Corinthians generally. He implies it is better to be dedicated to God alone, than to have one's interests divided between your wife and God. How do Mormons deal with that text? You've mentioned a Trilateral love, which I don't deny exists, but I would deny (along with Paul) is better than complete love and dedication to God alone.

At this point of our conversation, I don't see how you can arrive at a Mormon interpretation of Saint Paul. I've seen no real interaction with Paul in general, only a proof text from here and assumptions. I wonder, do you at least understand why the Christian tradition read Paul as it did? That Mormonism doesn't arise naturally out of the text but would seem to have been revealed with Joseph Smith?

Regarding Jesus; if he didn't marry during his life then he committed a sin if a so called law of marriage is necessary for each and every individual. Now I understand you might believe Jesus was married, but this is a belief which is forced upon you by theology and not history. It seems inexcusable that the widow of Jesus or any potential family should be completely omitted from the bible and the early Church entirely. Not even heretics maintained he was married. We have more evidence that Peter was married than Jesus. Still, this is only your opinion and you would have to admit it is perfectly acceptable for a Mormon to believe Jesus was not married and that he achieved the highest exaltation. Now if the latter is a possible belief within Mormonism, doesn't this negate the Idea that marriage is necessary to achieve the highest exaltation? The LDS haven't settled this question therefore the possibility alone makes it a plausible belief within the LDS framework.

Celibacy, the deliberate renunciation of marriage, is foreign to LDS life. Like other forms of ascetic withdrawal, it may deprive the participant of crucial life experiences. Spiritual maturity and exaltation in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom require marriage (D&C 131:2-3).

The norm of Latter-day Saint teaching and practice is for individuals to marry, procreate, and foster righteous living in their families as indicated in the scriptures: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" (Gen. 1:28). "Marriage is honourable in all" (Heb. 13:4). "Whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man" (D&C 49:15). Those who are unable to marry in a temple in mortality through no fault of their own will receive compensatory blessings later (D&C 137:5-8).

The practice of celibacy was not widespread among the Christian clergy until centuries after the death of the apostles. "Forbidding to marry" was, for Paul, a sign of apostasy (1 Tim. 4:3). Because ancient and modern revelation endorses marriage and because most religious leaders in the Old and New Testaments were married, Latter-day Saints reject attempts to interpret the Bible as advocating celibacy.

From: Celibacy - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism

Jesus was a Rabbi. As I understand it one of the qualifications of being a Rabbi during the time of Jesus Christ was to be married.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Celibacy, the deliberate renunciation of marriage, is foreign to LDS life. Like other forms of ascetic withdrawal, it may deprive the participant of crucial life experiences. Spiritual maturity and exaltation in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom require marriage (D&C 131:2-3).

The norm of Latter-day Saint teaching and practice is for individuals to marry, procreate, and foster righteous living in their families as indicated in the scriptures: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" (Gen. 1:28). "Marriage is honourable in all" (Heb. 13:4). "Whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man" (D&C 49:15). Those who are unable to marry in a temple in mortality through no fault of their own will receive compensatory blessings later (D&C 137:5-8).

The practice of celibacy was not widespread among the Christian clergy until centuries after the death of the apostles. "Forbidding to marry" was, for Paul, a sign of apostasy (1 Tim. 4:3). Because ancient and modern revelation endorses marriage and because most religious leaders in the Old and New Testaments were married, Latter-day Saints reject attempts to interpret the Bible as advocating celibacy.

From: Celibacy - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism

Jesus was a Rabbi. As I understand it one of the qualifications of being a Rabbi during the time of Jesus Christ was to be married.

You're still not addressing my main point. I am arguing from the possibility that Jesus was unmarried, does it therefore not follow from this that marriage is absolutely necessary to the highest exaltation. Until the LDS CHurch clearly says one way or the other that JEsus was married or was unmarried, you live in a world where two possible ideas are permitted the LDS believer. One, Jesus was married (which fits into LDS norms) and two, that Jesus was unmarried (which offers a challenge). The latter is a permissible viewpoint within Mormonism, thus this article really cannot be justified. It all hinges on Jesus and who he was and what he did. Since the LDS don't know for sure that Jesus was married they are unable to decide on the issue.

I think this argument is compelling enough to make the Mormon reconsider their position on the importance of marriage.

I question the Idea that celibacy amongst the clergy was unknown until centuries later. IN the writings we have of the Church Fathers that have come down to us from the Ante Nicene period they don't tend to mention wives. There's simply a dearth of information to make this claim for sure, but given what Paul says and how he served as an example I would not be surprised if many priests and leaders were celibate. There is also those women in the new Testament and ante Nicene literature whom were consecrated virgins. So the claim is overplayed.

The Church also has never forbidden to marry. It has only offered the path of celibacy as a legitimate option in one's dedication to God. To be free of worldly distractions and serve God with all one's vigour. This sort of dedication perhaps to the Mormon means the celibate has too much love for God.

 

[He is the way]

You're still not addressing my main point. I am arguing from the possibility that Jesus was unmarried, does it therefore not follow from this that marriage is absolutely necessary to the highest exaltation. Until the LDS CHurch clearly says one way or the other that JEsus was married or was unmarried, you live in a world where two possible ideas are permitted the LDS believer. One, Jesus was married (which fits into LDS norms) and two, that Jesus was unmarried (which offers a challenge). The latter is a permissible viewpoint within Mormonism, thus this article really cannot be justified. It all hinges on Jesus and who he was and what he did. Since the LDS don't know for sure that Jesus was married they are unable to decide on the issue.

I think this argument is compelling enough to make the Mormon reconsider their position on the importance of marriage.

I question the Idea that celibacy amongst the clergy was unknown until centuries later. IN the writings we have of the Church Fathers that have come down to us from the Ante Nicene period they don't tend to mention wives. There's simply a dearth of information to make this claim for sure, but given what Paul says and how he served as an example I would not be surprised if many priests and leaders were celibate. There is also those women in the new Testament and ante Nicene literature whom were consecrated virgins. So the claim is overplayed.

The Church also has never forbidden to marry. It has only offered the path of celibacy as a legitimate option in one's dedication to God. To be free of worldly distractions and serve God with all one's vigour. This sort of dedication perhaps to the Mormon means the celibate has too much love for God.

The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints has no official doctrine as to whether Jesus Christ was married or not. In order to find out for myself I had to do some research of my own. I will let you do/pay for your own research and decide for yourself.

 

[Peter1000]

No, your post was misleading! It is a sin (per Mormonism) to disobey the Mormon commandments. Why do you try to refute LDS scriptures?

Doctrine and Covenants 132
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
Doctrine and Covenants 132

It makes no sense to me when those who want to discredit ex-Mormons deny their own scriptures. Why are you doing this?

Perhaps you should spend less time at CF and read the Doctrine and Covenants and some of your church lesson manuals.

It is not a sin to not be married. It is wise to be married in order to make it to the highest level of the Celestial kingdom, but it is not a sin to not be married. It is a disadvantage.

 

[Rescued One]

It is not a sin to not be married. It is wise to be married in order to make it to the highest level of the Celestial kingdom, but it is not a sin to not be married. It is a disadvantage.

In Mormonism it is a sin to disobey the command to be married for time and eternity.

D&C 25
15 Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.

16 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my voice unto all. Amen.

D&C 132
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

Show us a later revelation that annuls those verses.

Why are you posting here if you don't believe your scriptures?

 

[Peter1000]

In Mormonism it is a sin to disobey the command to be married for time and eternity.

D&C 25
15 Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.

16 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my voice unto all. Amen.

D&C 132
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

Show us a later revelation that annuls those verses.

Why are you posting here if you don't believe your scriptures?

You must obey or be damned. Even those single people that go into the Celestial kingdom are damned, because only married people are able to expand and grow and continue to do so for eternity.

A single person, even in the Celestial kingdom will not expand or grow but will be damned, meaning they have no increase or growth. They will stand still and be like the angels of God, servants by definition.

 

[He is the way]

In Mormonism it is a sin to disobey the command to be married for time and eternity.

D&C 25
15 Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.

16 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my voice unto all. Amen.

D&C 132
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

Show us a later revelation that annuls those verses.

Why are you posting here if you don't believe your scriptures?

It is not a sin for those who are not able to fulfill the law. Common sense would tell a person that those who die before the legal age of marriage would not be accountable. Neither would those who are not mentally capable. It is NOT the letter of the law, it is the spirit of the law that counts. Besides everyone will eventually be able to obey this covenant.

 

[mmksparbud]

At the present time polygamy is not allowed in The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. God decides when and where it is allowed.

The law to multiply and replenish the earth was also given to Noah:

(Old Testament | Genesis 9:1)

1 AND God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth

Has it been taken away?

I believe that Jesus was married while He was on earth. That is my personal opinion and not doctrine of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

And what documentation do you have for Jesus being married?

 

[He is the way]

And what documentation do you have for Jesus being married?

I put in the time and effort, I expect you to do the same.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I put in the time and effort, I expect you to do the same.

In other words you have none. Your only argument thus far is to say rabbis were married therefore Jesus was married. It's weak given the overwhelming silence of all early mentions of Jesus.

 

[mmksparbud]

I put in the time and effort, I expect you to do the same.

We've been over this many times. It was required of men to build their wives a house, and to stay with them for one year. Jesus had no home. Jesus came to save us from our sin, He did not come to get a wife! Jesus worked from His baptism to His death for 3 1/2 years---0no time for a wife! As Christians we do not have to prove He did not marry. There is no evidence He did. It is up to the one that says He was married to prove it. And what time and effort have you put in to prove He was??

 

[He is the way]

In other words you have none. Your only argument thus far is to say rabbis were married therefore Jesus was married. It's weak given the overwhelming silence of all early mentions of Jesus.

I spent money and many hours finding my evidence, and I am not just going to hand it all over to you. You would not appreciate it anyway. If you want it earn it.

 

[Rescued One]

It is not a sin for those who are not able to fulfill the law. Common sense would tell a person that those who die before the legal age of marriage would not be accountable.

They will be married by proxy.

Neither would those who are not mentally capable. It is NOT the letter of the law, it is the spirit of the law that counts. Besides everyone will eventually be able to obey this covenant.

Of course, they will. It is a commandment and a requirement. They have to agree to it in the spirit world and it will be done by proxy on earth if they agree to it.

 

[He is the way]

They will be married by proxy.



Of course, they will. It is a commandment and a requirement. They have to agree to it in the spirit world and it will be done by proxy on earth if they agree to it.

Correct, it does not need to be completed during their lifetime on the earth.

 

[Rescued One]

Correct, it does not need to be completed during their lifetime on the earth.

Speaking of those who are unable to marry on earth. Those who choose to remain single are disobedient.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I spent money and many hours finding my evidence, and I am not just going to hand it all over to you. You would not appreciate it anyway. If you want it earn it.

I'm sure even you realize this is a weak argument. I've spent money on primary sources and books as well ( I own a platinum Logos Bundle) but I don't try to hide my information from others.

If I disagree with your source or argument, so what?

 

[Rescued One]

You must obey or be damned. Even those single people that go into the Celestial kingdom are damned, because only married people are able to expand and grow and continue to do so for eternity.

A single person, even in the Celestial kingdom will not expand or grow but will be damned, meaning they have no increase or growth. They will stand still and be like the angels of God, servants by definition.

D&C 132
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

How you define damned makes no difference. They disobeyed your god and have to accept the punishment.

“If properly received, this covenant becomes the means of the greatest happiness. The greatest honor in this life, and in the life to come-honor, dominion, and power in perfect love-are the blessings which come out of it. These blessings of eternal glory are held in reserve for those who are willing to abide in this and all other covenants of the gospel. Others shall not be so blessed.

“Marriage is the grandest, most glorious, and most exalting principle connected with the gospel. It is that which the Lord holds in reserve for those who become his sons and daughters; all others are servants only, even if they gain salvation. They do not become members of the household of our Father and our God, if they refuse to receive the celestial covenant of marriage.

"The Lord has informed us through his servants the prophets, that all things are governed by law. His house is a house of order, because all things within are obedient to law. He will not accept at the hand of man, an offering, vow, or contract, which is not entered into in accordance with the laws which govern in his kingdom and which he, the Lord, has established. Man-made obligations and agreements, in which the Lord does not enter, and which were not made by him, or by his word, which is his law, shall come to an end when men are dead."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, Vol. 2, p. 59, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56