Resurrection, First Resurrection and New Birth

[shilohsfoal]

The first mistake you are making, you are applying the smoke of their torment to someone it doesn't and can't possibly apply to. While they were alive they were tormenting others. While they were dead, no one was being tormented, including them. When they raised back to life the 2W still aren't being tormented.

You seriously need to rethink some of this, IMO.

I'm not saying the smoke of thier torment applies to anyone else.

You just quoted a verse that says God can destroy both soul and body in hell and you were speaking of the lake of fire. I agree.

The 2 witnesses were resurrected. But I'm saying I would'nt want to go up in that cloud with them.
I believe thier smoke of thier torment will ascend for ever and ever.

In other words, I think they shouldn't have been tormenting people. But you know what they say. You reep what you sow.

 

[shilohsfoal]

The first mistake you are making, you are applying the smoke of their torment to someone it doesn't and can't possibly apply to. While they were alive they were tormenting others. While they were dead, no one was being tormented, including them. When they raised back to life the 2W still aren't being tormented.

You seriously need to rethink some of this, IMO.

This is similar to what I believe to be the abomination of desolation which is to be set in Jerusalem by the armed forces of the king of the north. I believe it will be placed about three days after the king of the south attacks his forces in Jerusalem.
That would be three days after the beast kills the two witnesses. This is why I wouldn't want to be in that cloud with them alive after they are resurrected.

 

[rwb]

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Because they are resurrected, they have bodies.
Scripture shows they reign in Jerusalem, Israel.
Both revelation and Ezekiel wrote about them. Ezekiel called them Israel and said they are a peaceful people who dwell safely without defences such as walls. Both books talk about Gog invading Israel. Ezekiel gives more detail as to what other countries are with Gog when he invades Israel. Both books talk of Gogs destruction in Israel.

PS. I almost forgot. Daniel wrote of them to. Daniel wrote that God gives them the kingdom which once belonged to the beast after it is destroyed.

What do you mean they were resurrected? They are disembodied (beheaded), yet alive in heaven with Christ for a thousand years. One cannot have a living body without a head! You need to deal with what the verse actually says, and use the context to rightly discern.

 

[shilohsfoal]

What do you mean they were resurrected? They are disembodied (beheaded), yet alive in heaven with Christ for a thousand years. One cannot have a living body without a head! You need to deal with what the verse actually says, and use the context to rightly discern.

The Bible says they reign on earth 1000 years after they are resurrected. That means even though they died, they were resurrected and lived.
Scripture plainly shows they are on earth when Gog invades Israel.

Revelation 20:8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.
Revelation 20:9 And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

Take note that Gogs forces March across the earth and surrounded the saints camp. That camp is upon earth. Not in the sky.This is also backed by Ezekiel.Seeing you claim to be one of them, you should know all this.

 

[DavidPT]

One cannot have a living body without a head!

What you say here makes perfect sense, and that I for one grasp your point. So I'm not disputing the logic in your point. What's in question though, when they are then living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, in what sense are they doing that? And since they living and reigning involves a resurrection, it is not far-fetched to conclude, that even they had been beheaded, thus caused them to become physically dead, they don't remain in that state forever, thus the reason for the first resurrection, so that they can rise from the dead bodily like Jesus rose bodily from the dead.

 

[rwb]

The Bible says they reign on earth 1000 years after they are resurrected. That means even though they died, they were resurrected and lived.
Scripture plainly shows they are on earth when Gog invades Israel.

Revelation 20:8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.
Revelation 20:9 And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

Take note that Gogs forces March across the earth and surrounded the saints camp. That camp is upon earth. Not in the sky.This is also backed by Ezekiel.Seeing you claim to be one of them, you should know all this.

Your really showing your confusion. The verse does not say these beheaded souls were physically resurrected and are living on earth. John sees a vision of heaven, because there cannot be physical life without a head. It is only in heaven that it makes sense for John to see disembodied souls; i.e. spiritual body.

Clearly if they are living and reigning with Christ in heaven, they cannot be on the earth for Gog and Magog to attack. Gog and Magog comes after Christians alive on the earth, who have never died; i.e. never been beheaded.

 

[rwb]

What you say here makes perfect sense, and that I for one grasp your point. So I'm not disputing the logic in your point. What's in question though, when they are then living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, in what sense are they doing that? And since they living and reigning involves a resurrection, it is not far-fetched to conclude, that even they had been beheaded, thus caused them to become physically dead, they don't remain in that state forever, thus the reason for the first resurrection, so that they can rise from the dead bodily like Jesus rose bodily from the dead.

They are living and reigning in heaven with Christ as spiritual body; living souls. Because in death their body returned to the earth, and through the living Spirit in their spirit, they went as living souls to heaven, where they are as the angels in heaven, celestial/spiritual beings. How could John has seen a resurrected, physical body without a head? Impossible! But he could and did see living souls, a spiritual body in heaven, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

The resurrection they had part of is the first resurrection, which is the resurrection of Christ. In life they were born again of the Spirit, and made to partake of the resurrection life of Christ. For He is the first resurrection of the dead, and it is only by having part in His resurrection life, that the second death will have no power over believers.

These disembodied souls in heaven will not be clothed in bodies of flesh again until Christ comes again on the last day. Then their body, made immortal and incorruptible will be re-united with their eternal spirit to live forever on the new earth. Because when the thousand years expire, the Kingdom of Heaven is complete, so the next age of eternity begins.

 

[5thKingdom]

Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.


.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Your really showing your confusion. The verse does not say these beheaded souls were physically resurrected and are living on earth. John sees a vision of heaven, because there cannot be physical life without a head. It is only in heaven that it makes sense for John to see disembodied souls; i.e. spiritual body.

Clearly if they are living and reigning with Christ in heaven, they cannot be on the earth for Gog and Magog to attack. Gog and Magog comes after Christians alive on the earth, who have never died; i.e. never been beheaded.

The text does say thier camp is on earth where Gog surrounds them. Then fire comes down from heaven and destroys Gog.
I have no idea why you think they will be living in the sky after Christ resurrects them. What do you think they will be doing in the sky? Just floating around up there?
Anyways enough of this foolish nonsense. If you don't believe God can raise the dead back to life even if they had been beheaded then you just don't have faith in God. But the scripture b is clear. They are resurrected from the dead and reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years when they are surrounded by Gog. I'm sure your not one of them but if you want to continue telling everyone that you died and were resurrected like Christ, then I'm sure you will.

 

[rwb]

The text does say thier camp is on earth where Gog surrounds them. Then fire comes down from heaven and destroys Gog.
I have no idea why you think they will be living in the sky after Christ resurrects them. What do you think they will be doing in the sky? Just floating around up there?
Anyways enough of this foolish nonsense. If you don't believe God can raise the dead back to life even if they had been beheaded then you just don't have faith in God. But the scripture b is clear. They are resurrected from the dead and reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years when they are surrounded by Gog. I'm sure your not one of them but if you want to continue telling everyone that you died and were resurrected like Christ, then I'm sure you will.

Believers are with Christ in heaven after death, and He brings them with Him when He returns. But for all believers who are left alive at His coming again, they are surrounded by the enemies of Christ and His Church (holy kingdom) on earth, and just before the fire of God comes down to destroy them all, believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air until the wrath of God by fire is over. Then all those from heaven who came with the Lord, believers resurrected bodies, and all who are still alive on earth at His coming, will be changed to immortal and incorruptible at His coming. Then only those who are with Christ (believers) will be in the age of eternity to come to the new earth, where we will be with Christ forever. Not for one thousand years, but forever. Here is a picture for you of things that come to pass with the coming of Christ on the last day of this age.

Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Re 20:9a And they went up on the breadth of the earth, 9:b and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Re 20:9c and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Gog & Magog)

1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[BABerean2]

Believers are with Christ in heaven after death, and He brings them with Him when He returns. But for all believers who are left alive at His coming again, they are surrounded by the enemies of Christ and His Church (holy kingdom) on earth, and just before the fire of God comes down to destroy them all, believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air until the wrath of God by fire is over. Then all those from heaven who came with the Lord, believers resurrected bodies, and all who are still alive on earth at His coming, will be changed to immortal and incorruptible at His coming. Then only those who are with Christ (believers) will be in the age of eternity to come to the new earth, where we will be with Christ forever. Not for one thousand years, but forever. Here is a picture for you of things that come to pass with the coming of Christ on the last day of this age.

Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Re 20:9a And they went up on the breadth of the earth, 9:b and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Re 20:9c and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Gog & Magog)

1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Pastor Voddie Baucham agrees with your viewpoint in the message below:

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[rwb]

Pastor Voddie Baucham agrees with your viewpoint in the message below:

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Thank you BaBerean, its always nice to receive confirmation from other Christians. Its when we are on an island alone in our view, that we may need to re-evaluate our discernment. Thanks again!

 

[claninja]

And can mean they both were killed for testifying of Christ and had not worshiped the beast.
Seeing I know who they are, I understand this is the case. They are killed for thier testimony and they had not worshiped the beast.

Right, based on the grammar, it's possible that it can mean 1 group or 2 groups of souls that John is seeing.

What will determine if you interpret it as 1 or 2 will typically be our eschatological outlook.

Seeing as the NT declares that when we partake in the resurrection of Christ, we are no longer hurt by the 2nd death (john 11:25-26) and are now a kingdom of priests (1 peter 2:9), I view the 1st resurrection as Christ and those who partake as all true believers in Christ, whether martyred or not.

 

[claninja]

I never said we are not raised with Him. I said He was raised bodily. How can we be raised with Him spiritually?

Oh, I know. We are not raised again with Him spiritually because we are born from above by the Spirit of Christ above, and so we are in Him and He in us, therefore we died with Him (who did not die spiritually, but bodily) and are raised again with Him (who did not rise again spiritually from "spiritual" death, but bodily, from physical death).

It's hard to understand when hanging onto a false doctrine called "spiritual resurrection" I know, but that's what scripture says - over and over and over again.

Being symbolically/spiritually buried with Christ through baptism, results in us being symbolically/spiritually raised to walk in newness of life. Paul clearly states this. your argument does not surmount the very clear words of Paul.

colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

I'm not calling it a "spiritual resurrection". I believe this refers to being born again.

Jesus is the 1st resurrection. Those who partake in this spiritually, by being buried with Christ in baptism and raised to walk in the newness of the life will never be hurt by the 2nd death and are a kingdom of Priests.

 

[claninja]

According to scripture, those who take part in the first resurrection were beheaded for thier witness of Jesus. If you have taken part in this resurrection, can you tell me howany days passed from the time you was beheaded to the day you was resurrected?

I'm pretty sure I have not been beheaded nor yet raised in a new resurrected body as I type this.

Have you partaken in Christ's resurrection through baptism to be born again and walk in the newness of life (colossians 2:12, romans 6:4) ? As such are you no longer affected by the 2nd death (John 11:25-26)? Are you a member of the royal priesthood to God (1 peter 2:9)?

If your answer is yes to any of those questions, then revelation 20:6 applies to you.

 

[Zao is life]

I'm not calling it a "spiritual resurrection". I believe this refers to being born again.

At last

 

[DavidPT]

Those who partake in this spiritually, by being buried with Christ in baptism and raised to walk in the newness of the life will never be hurt by the 2nd death and are a kingdom of Priests.

While that might work on this side of life while someone is still physically alive, it results in utter nonsense when one tries to apply that to someone after they have already physically died and are awaiting a bodily resurrection.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---at this point these have literally already physically died.

It might look like this----and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years(after they have already physically died)---this is the first resurrection.

Amils ignore the part about being priests of God and Christ, and how that is being applied, not to someone that hasn't even physically died yet, but to someone that already has.

 

[rwb]

While that might work on this side of life while someone is still physically alive, it results in utter nonsense when one tries to apply that to someone after they have already physically died and are awaiting a bodily resurrection.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---at this point these have literally already physically died.

It might look like this----and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years(after they have already physically died)---this is the first resurrection.

Amils ignore the part about being priests of God and Christ, and how that is being applied, not to someone that hasn't even physically died yet, but to someone that already has.

David, do you believe the life in Christ we have when we believe is eternal?

If yes, how do you define eternal life?

Would the eternal life we have in Christ be eternal, if life does not continue after physical death?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Right, based on the grammar, it's possible that it can mean 1 group or 2 groups of souls that John is seeing.

What will determine if you interpret it as 1 or 2 will typically be our eschatological outlook.

Seeing as the NT declares that when we partake in the resurrection of Christ, we are no longer hurt by the 2nd death (john 11:25-26) and are now a kingdom of priests (1 peter 2:9), I view the 1st resurrection as Christ and those who partake as all true believers in Christ, whether martyred or not.

Well, I dont veiw it as all the dead. I veiw it as those who were killed for thier testimony of Christ and who had not worshiped the beast or his image.
Now although I don't worship the beast or his image, I'm also not tempted to do so because I'm not of that kingdom. In fact I have no ties whatsoever to the seven hills or any of that kingdom. It's also very unlikely that I would be killed for my testimony of Christ as no one in my country is killed for that. I don't know of anyone ever being killed in the USA for testifying of Christ. So I will lay in my grave and await the final resurrection while those holy saints are reigning with Christ in the promised land.
I have no problem knowing God has chosen them and I don't envy them. I understand the great pressure they must endure and I'm happy God shall reward them.

 

[shilohsfoal]

I'm pretty sure I have not been beheaded nor yet raised in a new resurrected body as I type this.

Have you partaken in Christ's resurrection through baptism to be born again and walk in the newness of life (colossians 2:12, romans 6:4) ? As such are you affected by the 2nd death (John 11:25-26)? Are you a member of the royal priesthood to God (1 peter 2:9)?

If your answer is yes to any of those questions, then revelation 20:6 applies to you.

I've been baptised in the holy ghost.
It was Aug 31,1998
But I havnt died yet so no, I havnt been resurrected.