I want to see timeline charts.....

[nolidad]

The adjustments were not expressly for the purpose of when to plant, but to ensure that the biblical Holy days would fall at the specified time. Passover, for example, which had to be observed during the Spring, would land during the Winter after a few years. If there were not adjustments. What the adjustments were is not mentioned in the Tanach.

The Jews currently add an extra month called Adar II to their calendar every two or three years.

Currently but not then.

Back in Jesus day they did not add extra time to their theological calendar. They kept time by the moon and stars as is found in Genesis 1. That is why Passove falls at different times each and every year! It is based on the lunar calendar!

And there is some very solid scholarship by Jewish scholars who have theorized that because of the various exiles from the land- the calendar was restarted several times! This is because of generations losing track of Jewish time frames in the foreign lands and when they returned there were no people left who knew the continued time . I will see if I can find it again.

 

[Douggg]

Currently but not then.

Back in Jesus day they did not add extra time to their theological calendar. They kept time by the moon and stars as is found in Genesis 1. That is why Passove falls at different times each and every year! It is based on the lunar calendar!

And there is some very solid scholarship by Jewish scholars who have theorized that because of the various exiles from the land- the calendar was restarted several times! This is because of generations losing track of Jewish time frames in the foreign lands and when they returned there were no people left who knew the continued time . I will see if I can find it again.

We don't know what the ancients did, but they had to do some in the way of adjustments.

The Passover does not fall 4-5 months apart each and every year. But if adjustments had not been made by the ancients that would have happened. We just don't know what those adjustments were. The new months in the Jewish system was based on Lunar observation.

 

[nolidad]

We don't know what the ancients did, but they had to do some in the way of adjustments.

The Passover does not fall 4-5 months apart each and every year. But if adjustments had not been made by the ancients that would have happened. We just don't know what those adjustments were. The new months in the Jewish system was based on Lunar observation.

Think about what you just said! "We don't know what they did , but they had to make adjustments". So you believe you know what they did!!!!!!

All we know from recorded history is that ancinet Israel followed a 12 month lunar calendar of 360 days and that they celebrated each feast commanded by god on a certain day in a certain month of their calendar. What it corresponds to in our 2nd western world calendar is really irrelavent! The Wes tern world fgollowed the Julian Calender Until we followed the gregorian calendar since the end of the 16 th century! NOw we follow atomic clocks to get our days down to the nanosecond based on the sun!

Israel from all we know cared not a whit abou thtat!

 

[Douggg]

Think about what you just said! "We don't know what they did , but they had to make adjustments". So you believe you know what they did!!!!!!

All we know from recorded history is that ancinet Israel followed a 12 month lunar calendar of 360 days and that they celebrated each feast commanded by god on a certain day in a certain month of their calendar. What it corresponds to in our 2nd western world calendar is really irrelavent! The Wes tern world fgollowed the Julian Calender Until we followed the gregorian calendar since the end of the 16 th century! NOw we follow atomic clocks to get our days down to the nanosecond based on the sun!

Israel from all we know cared not a whit abou thtat!

All of this to defend the flaw in the method of computation, and necessity to convert the 483 years to 476 years. nolidad, the conversion is not necessary. Some of the years in 483 years had more than 360 days than others which had 360 days. Overall, the 483 years is still 483 years, even if measured with an atomic clock. Passover in the spring season. Day of Atonement in the fall season.

 

[BABerean2]

All we know from recorded history is that ancinet Israel followed a 12 month lunar calendar of 360 days and that they celebrated each feast commanded by god on a certain day in a certain month of their calendar.

Can you show us this from the Bible?

.

 

[nolidad]

"People of the prince " is the subject of the destruction (the verb).......not the other way around.

Whether a person wants to assign the label of "prince" to Titus or Jesus (as agents of His will) it doesn't really matter. Either way, history aligns with Scripture.

Yes knowing who is that Prince is very very important. To say the Prince is Jesus is to imply that God who is the author of proper grammar breaks the very rules of grammar!


In every language, when a personal pronoun is used it always refers back to the nearest personal noun!

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In 26 the subject is the people. The identity of the people is absolutely tied to the Prince (for they are the people of the prince to come) . Rome destroyed the sanctuary So the prince and the "he" of 27 are the same and it is that he who confirms a covenant for 7 years! As no Roman prince or ruler has made a 7 year covenant with Israel for 7 years and in the middle of that 7 year covenant end the sacrificial system (though the system has ended many times in the past) this prince is still a future person to come.

 

[nolidad]

That would be a first. That's something I've never been accused of being.

I don't know what could be more literal than the preterist belief of the fulfilment of the prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in the generation Jesus spoke to?

Mark 13:32 ~ “Do you see all these great buildings?” Jesus replied. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Luke 21:20 ~ But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.

Well that is a belief shared by all who revere the Word of God! For dispensationalists recognize the destruction of the temple in these two passages and also Matt. 24:1-2

I t appears that amillenialists and preterists seem to forget that MAtt. 24-24, Mark 13 and Luke 22 are all part and parcel of the Olivet discourse and that the disciples asked Jesus 3 separate questions as found in Matt. 24.

Jesus answered all three questions.

1. What is the sign of the temple to be destroyed (when shall these things be in Matt. 24)
2. What is the sign of your coming.
3. What is the sign of the end of the age.

Each writer focused on a different portion.

Luke focused more on the destruction of the temple.
Mark summed up the destruction and the trib while emphasizing the return
Matthew focused more on the tribulation period, specifically the last 3 1/2 years.

When you compare the Luke passage of Jerusalem with the Matthew and Mark portion, while they h ave many similarities, there is massive differences that openly reveal they are two separate events.

Luke 21:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Here when Jerusalem is surrounded, it is the fulfilment of the sign of its destruction! Jesus warned people to flee and that Jews would be taken captive into all nations until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled!

IN Matt. 24:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The sign is not Jerusalem encompassed by armies, but the abominable one who makes desolate standing in the holy place!

The consequences are different as well! In Luke it is Israel taken captive in Matt. it is tribulation that has never been seen before or again! They are different events!

 

[nolidad]

Can you show us this from the Bible?

.

No. Nor can you show that Israel followed a solar calendar! We can only learn these things from outside Scripture.

Just like can you prove from the bible that automobiles are godly?

 

[nolidad]

I would ask the same thing - to read more carefully.

David acted as a priestly king. It was only in the order of Melchizedek that David's throne could be passed on. The succession was from David to Christ Jesus. Never did the throne sit empty without a qualified man seated on it (which was an unconditional covenant characteristic).

Not true. David di not act as a priestly king. No king was of the order of Melchizadek. Melchizadek was not even Jewish! But when Jesus physically takes the throne because He is prophet, priest and king He will be the first king after the order of Melchizadek as written in Hebrews!

 

[nolidad]

The adjustments were not expressly for the purpose of when to plant, but to ensure that the biblical Holy days would fall at the specified time. Passover, for example, which had to be observed during the Spring, would land during the Winter after a few years. If there were not adjustments. What the adjustments were is not mentioned in the Tanach.

The Jews currently add an extra month called Adar II to their calendar every two or three years.

Once again that is incorrect. Yahweh never demanded what season a festival is to take place. But He did command a certain month or day or both for the 7 feasts israel was commanded to keep. It is only more modern history when Israel added Adar 2. It is first found in the Mishnah which was written after the time of Jesus and formalized in the fourth century AD.

 

[nolidad]

We don't know what the ancients did, but they had to do some in the way of adjustments.

The Passover does not fall 4-5 months apart each and every year. But if adjustments had not been made by the ancients that would have happened. We just don't know what those adjustments were. The new months in the Jewish system was based on Lunar observation.

Of course not! It occurs every year on Nisan 15! Jews thought of their calendar and not the egyptian and then after Jesus the gregorian calendar. It wasn't until a few centuries after the diaspora and Israel was no longer a nation that the Jews added Adar 2 and later other tools to try to equate their lunat calendar with the gentile world solar calendar!

Remember to us Christmas always falls on Dec. 25! No matter what other calendars in use say the date is! To Israel Passover and the other feasts fell on THEIR months- no matter what other calendar was being used by others.

 

[nolidad]

All of this to defend the flaw in the method of computation, and necessity to convert the 483 years to 476 years. nolidad, the conversion is not necessary. Some of the years in 483 years had more than 360 days than others which had 360 days. Overall, the 483 years is still 483 years, even if measured with an atomic clock. Passover in the spring season. Day of Atonement in the fall season.

And you are thinking with a modern mind! Spring and fall seasons are terms that came long after Jesus.

But to Israel of Jesus day Passover was Nisan 15 and the Day of atonement was Tamuz 10 each and every year!!! For them it fell on the same time every year but for us and our calendar it falls on different days and even different months every year!

 

[Douggg]

And you are thinking with a modern mind! Spring and fall seasons are terms that came long after Jesus.

But to Israel of Jesus day Passover was Nisan 15 and the Day of atonement was Tamuz 10 each and every year!!! For them it fell on the same time every year but for us and our calendar it falls on different days and even different months every year!

The months has to correspond to the seasons and not the reverse. When those got out of sync with the seasons, there had to be adjustments made.

Number 9:2 Let the children of Israel also keep the passover at his appointed season.


Levitus 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

To do the wave offering, it has to be at the time of the harvest - which was tied to the season,; when the crops would be ready for harvest.

 

[nolidad]

The months has to correspond to the seasons and not the reverse. When those got out of sync with the seasons, there had to be adjustments made.

Number 9:2 Let the children of Israel also keep the passover at his appointed season.


Levitus 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

To do the wave offering, it has to be at the time of the harvest - which was tied to the season,; when the crops would be ready for harvest.

If you had done even a cursory study in Strongs you would not have posted this as a post saying time of year (spring fall etc.)

Season is:

mow`ed
Pronunciation
mo·ad' יָעַד (H3259)
Dictionary Aids
TWOT Reference: congregation (150x), feast (23x), season (13x), appointed (12x), time (12x), assembly (4x), solemnity (4x), solemn (2x), days (1x), sign (1x), synagogues (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. appointed place, appointed time, meeting
   
   1. appointed time
      1. appointed time (general)
         
         
      2. sacred season, set feast, appointed season
   2. appointed meeting
      
      
   3. appointed place
      
      
   4. appointed sign or signal
      
      
   5. tent of meeting

And the appointed season (time) for passover is Nisan 15 and the appointed season (time) for Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) is Tamuz 10 Each and every year of teh Jewish Calendar! Whenever it falls on our Julian Calendar!

You must remember that the Bible was written with the mindset of the day and not the mindset and knowledge we possess today!

 

[Douggg]

If you had done even a cursory study in Strongs you would not have posted this as a post saying time of year (spring fall etc.)

Season is:

mow`ed
Pronunciation
mo·ad' יָעַד (H3259)
Dictionary Aids
TWOT Reference: congregation (150x), feast (23x), season (13x), appointed (12x), time (12x), assembly (4x), solemnity (4x), solemn (2x), days (1x), sign (1x), synagogues (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. appointed place, appointed time, meeting
   1. appointed time
      1. appointed time (general)
         
         
      2. sacred season, set feast, appointed season
   2. appointed meeting
      
      
   3. appointed place
      
      
   4. appointed sign or signal
      
      
   5. tent of meeting

And the appointed season (time) for passover is Nisan 15 and the appointed season (time) for Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) is Tamuz 10 Each and every year of teh Jewish Calendar! Whenever it falls on our Julian Calendar!

You must remember that the Bible was written with the mindset of the day and not the mindset and knowledge we possess today!

I don't know why anyone would not know that crops grow according to the seasons. Look at the grass in your front yard. It is green in the summer and brown in the winter.

(nolidad, in Matthew 24:20, did Jesus not say pray that your flight might not be in winter? )

To do the wave offering, at certain given days of certain given months - the years had to be periodically adjusted for the months to align with the seasons, when the harvest is possible.

 

[mkgal1]

Yes knowing who is that Prince is very very important. To say the Prince is Jesus is to imply that God who is the author of proper grammar breaks the very rules of grammar!


In every language, when a personal pronoun is used it always refers back to the nearest personal noun!

I've not read up on the grammar of ancient Hebrew....so I'm not certain that grammatical rule applies.

However, I am prone to believe the prince referred to all throughout the passage is Christ Jesus - the Son of Man, and the army of soldiers were agents of God's will.

Matthew 16:27-28 - “For the Son of Man is going to come with His angels in the glory of His Father, and then He will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

 

[Douggg]

I've not read up on the grammar of ancient Hebrew....so I'm not certain that grammatical rule applies.

However, I am prone to believe the prince referred to all throughout the passage is Christ Jesus - the Son of Man, and the army of soldiers were agents of God's will.

Matthew 16:27-28 - “For the Son of Man is going to come with His angels in the glory of His Father, and then He will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

mkgal1, grammar rules aside, Jesus was not of the people who destroyed the temple and city. Jesus's people were the Jews.

When Jesus returns with the holy angels and his saints - they will not be Roman soldiers.

 

[mkgal1]

Jesus was not of the people who destroyed the temple and city.

The text reads "people of the prince"....not "prince of the people".

I'm suggesting that the Roman soldiers were God's agents in destroying the Temple (not that they realized it) just as God had used other armies in the past to judge His people.

Jesus told the parable of the wicked tenants (and the Pharisees and chief priests knew He was speaking about them.....in the first century.....prior to the destruction of the city and the sanctuary):

Matthew 21:40-45
40 “Therefore, when the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?[j]

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that He was speaking of them.

​

 

[Douggg]

The text reads "people of the prince"....not "prince of the people".

I agree. But not the prince who was cufoff, but of the one who shall come..

I'm suggesting that the Roman soldiers were God's agents in destroying the Temple (not that they realized it) just as God had used other armies in the past to judge His people.

But who are you saying is that prince who shall come?

 

[mkgal1]

I agree. But not the prince who was cufoff, but of the one who shall come..


But who are you saying is that prince who shall come?

One consistent Prince all the way through - Christ Jesus the promised Messiah for the restoration of David's throne....and salvation for the whole world.

He came already - and returned in judgment through the destruction of the early corrupt city in 70 AD.