Should there be an Urgency to Fix Education in the U.S.?

[eleos1954]

Why would you choose to home school instead of utilizing a public school?

because the public schools teach kids what to think instead of HOW to think .... also distort history a lot .... many teachers pushing their political agenda ..... many reasons.
It has become more of a baby sitting service ... rather than sticking to the 3 R's (reading, writing and rithmatic) ... it is good to utilize technology .... but believe they should still be taught the basics as well ... but thank the Lord ... done raising kids!

 

[Caliban]

because the public schools teach kids what to think instead of HOW to think .... also distort history a lot .... many teachers pushing their political agenda ..... many reasons.
It has become more of a baby sitting service ... rather than sticking to the 3 R's (reading, writing and rithmatic) ... it is good to utilize technology .... but believe they should still be taught the basics as well ... but thank the Lord ... done raising kids!

I am not sure I agree with your assessment that schools teach students what to think a s opposed to how to think. I know a lot of teachers and everyone is highly concerned with educating students in critical thinking skills and original thinking. The entire Common Core approach involves deep analysis on the part of the student. As a nation-wide educational system we have moved away from rote learning to emphasize creativity and deep learning. I you look back at previous posts in this thread, I provided links to Common Core Standards which reflect this.

What do you mean by the "distortion" of history? Can you give an example?

 

[MehGuy]

I think one of the biggest problems with the education system in the US and probably most Western countries is that we have adopted an "everyone gets a trophy" mindset. We spend student's formative years instilling as much self esteem as possible. Little Billy or little Emily can be whatever they want if they put their mind into it. When in reality higher educational achievement and job status probably largely depends on outside factors such as innate intelligence. While our school system has remedial classes and gifted classes, I suspect for the bulk of the student body everyone is thrown into the mix together. To keep this front of equality and high self esteem I fear that we are gradually dumbing down our school system as a whole to meet the needs of the stragglers.

Highschool completion might be higher, but that doesn't mean we are necessarily doing a better job than the past. In my mind the education system needs to be totally restructured from the ground up, with a heavy emphasis put on intelligence testing. Not everyone needs to go to college, people can make decent wages with blue color jobs. We need to tailor the needs of the student according to their biological ability rather than living out an egalitarian fantasy. Of course this isn't a black and white issue. A student with a lower tested intelligence level who tries harder might edge out a tested student who is more intelligent but lazier, but as a whole I think we have drifted too far in the other direction.

 

[Caliban]

I think one of the biggest problems with the education system in the US and probably most Western countries is that we have adopted an "everyone gets a trophy" mindset. We spend student's formative years instilling as much self esteem as possible. Little Billy or little Emily can be whatever they want if they put their mind into it. When in reality higher educational achievement and job status probably largely depends on outside factors such as innate intelligence. While our school system has remedial classes and gifted classes, I suspect for the bulk of the student body everyone is thrown into the mix together. To keep this front of equality and high self esteem I fear that we are gradually dumbing down our school system as a whole to meet the needs of the stragglers.

Highschool completion might be higher, but that doesn't mean we are necessarily doing a better job than the past. In my mind the education system needs to be totally restructured from the ground up, with a heavy emphasis put on intelligence testing. Not everyone needs to go to college, people can make decent wages with blue color jobs. We need to tailor the needs of the student according to their biological ability rather than living out an egalitarian fantasy. Of course this isn't a black and white issue. A student with a lower tested intelligence level who tries harder might edge out a tested student who is more intelligent but lazier, but as a whole I think we have drifted too far in the other direction.

The problem with intelligence tests is that they are illegal for certain segments of the population. Educators are trained in meeting the needs of diverse learners, but there are obvious funding problems to limiting class size and teaching smaller cohorts of gifted students. Most schools in the U.S. have AP or gate/Honors classes for these student already.
The largest predictor of a students success is not IQ but the parents level of education and literacy.

 

[MehGuy]

The problem with intelligence tests is that they are illegal for certain segments of the population.

Illegal?

Educators are trained in meeting the needs of diverse learners, but there are obvious funding problems to limiting class size and teaching smaller cohorts of gifted students. Most schools in the U.S. have AP or gate/Honors classes for these student already.

The honors classes I took didn't seem to be any different than the regular ones. In the public schools I have been too, the mass of the student body was taught under the same standards. Despite the fact that gaps between intelligence are probably wider than people want to believe. There isn't just stupid/normal/gifted. The in-between can be a massive gulf in itself.

The largest predictor of a students success is not IQ but the parents level of education and literacy.

I've read that parental involement matters when the children are younger as far as IQ scores go, but by the time they get into their teenage years biologly starts playing a major fixed role.

 

[Caliban]

Illegal?



The honors classes I took didn't seem to be any different than the regular ones. In the public schools I have been too, the mass of the student body was taught under the same standards. Despite the fact that gaps between intelligence are probably wider than people want to believe. There isn't just stupid/normal/gifted. The in-between can be a massive gulf in itself.



I've read that parental involement matters when the children are younger as far as IQ scores go, but by the time they get into their teenage years biologly starts playing a major fixed role.

Schools may not legally administer IQ tests to black students.
Court Ban on IQ Tests for Blacks Sparks Parents' Suit : Education: Plaintiffs say the ruling discriminates against minority students. Others contend it protects them from testing that is racially and culturally biased.

Teachers are educated in Universal Design for Learning (UDL). These strategies help teachers design student specific learning goals and instruction.

Even in High school, the social environment is extremely important for student success and achievement. Look at data on ACES scores as they apply to learning.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

I have observed that many discussion threads on this forum end up discussing education in some form (often off topic). Because of this, I thought it would be helpful to have a discussion specifically relating to education and its perceived positive or negative effects. I want to make the topic broad enough to allow a wide range of ideas and opinions. As long as we stick to the general topic of education, it shouldn't be considered off topic.


Many young people today are struggling to perform well in school. When students do well, it hardly makes the news; but there is increased attention upon the educational attainment of students and their knowledge base.What is your opinion concerning the urgency of the problem?


If interested, please take the poll.


Some stats to consider:


For the First Time: 90% completed High School or More


Nations Report Card—4th Grade Math by State

Perhaps the problem is bad teachers therefore the solution is to defund the schools.

 

[Caliban]

Perhaps the problem is bad teachers therefore the solution is to defund the schools.

What makes you think the blame falls on teachers?

 

[Jay Sea]

Yes, among other things. Militarization of the school system would help; good breakfast, uniform dress, strict discipline, control of distractions; in the early grades at least.

Militarisation???? The Discipline required for life is not imposed from outside but from the heart and mind through practices demonstrated by good examples of teachers. Military discipline leads to atrocities where doing the job, following the rules overcomes our humanity and compassion. True education that creates fully participating human beings as citizens is not what the powers of this world desire so it is not funded for all equally. elite schools and universities are preferenced to keep the power where it should stay ie. with those who have it, our betters. Still touches of the Victorian Britain exist or it's equivalent.
Why should executives earn more than the doorkeeper. Is it not his duty to use his talents for the good of all. At least he should pay proper taxes. Tax avoidance is self indulgence.
In the minds of those in power Eugenics is practised. Everyone has a right to equal educational opportunities, a roof over their heads and food on the table. Greed reigns and we get boys and their toys in the way of "starship" launches in the name of progress. So do the rich intend to waste the resources of this planet and leave us to it.

In Love
Jay

 

[MehGuy]

Schools may not legally administer IQ tests to black students.
Court Ban on IQ Tests for Blacks Sparks Parents' Suit : Education: Plaintiffs say the ruling discriminates against minority students. Others contend it protects them from testing that is racially and culturally biased.

Interesting, I had no idea. I do sympathize with the mother wanting to have her black son tested. While some people might call IQ tests baloney that are racially and culturally biased, some parents aren't phased by such thinking. Perhaps IQ tests were less robust in the past, but the modern ones (one I took due to language issues as a child) are pretty simple and forthright. I have a hard time seeing how they are racially and culturally biased. Especially considering East Asians on average score higher than whites do.

Teachers are educated in Universal Design for Learning (UDL). These strategies help teachers design student specific learning goals and instruction.

How well are these strategies practiced in reality?

Even in High school, the social environment is extremely important for student success and achievement. Look at data on ACES scores as they apply to learning.

I am not saying environment does not have an impact, particularly in the more extreme cases. Sadly poor nutrition and hyper domestic violence probably scars the child's intelligence potential for life. Even then, you have to wonder if the conditions these children face are not in part because of the genetic realities of their parents. Smarter parents are more likely to have more stable homes and be more apt to stress the importance of education than less intelligent parents.

 

[Caliban]

How well are these strategies practiced in reality?

The work great when the teacher has sufficient time to plan for their lesson. In many schools, planning time is limited because of underfunding. It actually takes a significant amount of time to review students work, plan the next lesson, and implement the changes necessary to help the student grasp the content in a new way. Most schools don't have the money to provide teachers a planning period. Uber dedicated teachers do it after work when they are not compensated for it. Others value family time and do not. It is mostly a funding issue since people don't like to work for free.

UDL helps a teacher design al lesson for a small group of students of similar ability or learning style. If a student is a kinesthetic learner, the teacher will provide that student with a hands on task to engage their specific learning style. I have brought in vintage typewriters when teaching poetic stanzas and formatting.

Another example is to provide students who are learning English with background information and extra supports like definitions or the context of words. All teachers should be doing this; it is supposed to be standard today.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

What makes you think the blame falls on teachers?

Obviously not all teachers are good. Some are bad. So maybe by defunding the schools the problem with the bad teachers will go away. Isnt that how things work?

Of course that isn't how things work. But I digress. In all seriousness though, I believe the problems with the education system is multifaceted. But the root of the problem begins at the home.

 

[Caliban]

Obviously not all teachers are good. Some are bad. So maybe by defunding the schools the problem with the bad teachers will go away. Isnt that how things work?

Of course that isn't how things work. But I digress. In all seriousness though, I believe the problems with the education system is multifaceted. But the root of the problem begins at the home.

Here is an interesting fact about books in the home:
"Having as few as 20 books in the home still has a significant impact on propelling a child to a higher level of education, and the more books you add, the greater the benefit. ... In some countries, such as China, having 500 or more books in the home propels children 6.6 years further in their education"
Books in home as important as parents' education in determining children's education level

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Here is an interesting fact about books in the home:
"Having as few as 20 books in the home still has a significant impact on propelling a child to a higher level of education, and the more books you add, the greater the benefit. ... In some countries, such as China, having 500 or more books in the home propels children 6.6 years further in their education"
Books in home as important as parents' education in determining children's education level

I agree.

 

[JIMINZ]

What makes you think the blame falls on teachers?

Because, it is the job of the Teacher to teach.

In every individual School, there are Teachers who Pass students who do not achieve the Standards which are said to be in place.

Therefore the burden of Educating a child who is NOW behind in learning falls upon the next Teacher in the next grade.

That Teacher does not have the time necessary to Educate that Student who is lacking certain skills in a subject.

Therefore the Student falls further behind in said subject-(s) but then again the Student is passed on to the next highest Grade, where he will end up at the end of that year even further behind than he was.

We have a Production line going in Education, the System cannot take or afford the time it would actually take to insure EVERY Student achieved the Standards set.

There is a built in Failure rate that is acceptable in the System, it isn't that the Students in that category are stupid, it's that the System (Production line) had to keep moving for the greater number to Graduate, regardless of their individual abilities.

Therefore like it or not there are Students Graduating who cannot write in Cursive, and use a pencil and paper to figure out a Math Problem.

No every Student who enters the School System needs to Graduate and go on to Collage.

 

[Caliban]

Because, it is the job of the Teacher to teach.

In every individual School, there are Teachers who Pass students who do not achieve the Standards which are said to be in place.

Therefore the burden of Educating a child who is NOW behind in learning falls upon the next Teacher in the next grade.

That Teacher does not have the time necessary to Educate that Student who is lacking certain skills in a subject.

Therefore the Student falls further behind in said subject-(s) but then again the Student is passed on to the next highest Grade, where he will end up at the end of that year even further behind than he was.

We have a Production line going in Education, the System cannot take or afford the time it would actually take to insure EVERY Student achieved the Standards set.

There is a built in Failure rate that is acceptable in the System, it isn't that the Students in that category are stupid, it's that the System (Production line) had to keep moving for the greater number to Graduate, regardless of their individual abilities.

Therefore like it or not there are Students Graduating who cannot write in Cursive, and use a pencil and paper to figure out a Math Problem.

No every Student who enters the School System needs to Graduate and go on to Collage.

I'm sorry, but since you just made a lot of claims without any evidence, I struggle to agree or disagree with you. What is your evidence that teachers pass students who don't meet the standard? You actually have to support this claim. Please don't disparage teachers with mere assertions.

I am also surprised that cursive is an important skill in the 2020 economy. When would a student ever need to demonstrate that skill today?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well, entire gangs are comprised of gang members. Incarceration does not solve the problem, it only damages peoples lives and kicks the can down the road. It doesn't solve the underlying problem. The U.S. already has the largest number of incarcerated people in the world--including countries with larger populations.

I did mention that drug addicts should be involuntarily hospitalized. They are pretty easy to identify. Incarceration does solve these problems, but offenders have to remain in prison, or a hospital, for a long time for it to be really effective.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

But that is not scientific. if teen pregnancy is a large problem affecting educational attainment, I need to know the numbers. For example, how much money should be allocated each year to address the problem? This has to be quantified in order to ensure an effective budget.

There's probably some information out there about that.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Because, it is the job of the Teacher to teach.

In every individual School, there are Teachers who Pass students who do not achieve the Standards which are said to be in place.

Therefore the burden of Educating a child who is NOW behind in learning falls upon the next Teacher in the next grade.

That Teacher does not have the time necessary to Educate that Student who is lacking certain skills in a subject.

Therefore the Student falls further behind in said subject-(s) but then again the Student is passed on to the next highest Grade, where he will end up at the end of that year even further behind than he was.

We have a Production line going in Education, the System cannot take or afford the time it would actually take to insure EVERY Student achieved the Standards set.

There is a built in Failure rate that is acceptable in the System, it isn't that the Students in that category are stupid, it's that the System (Production line) had to keep moving for the greater number to Graduate, regardless of their individual abilities.

Therefore like it or not there are Students Graduating who cannot write in Cursive, and use a pencil and paper to figure out a Math Problem.

No every Student who enters the School System needs to Graduate and go on to Collage.

Teachers are bound the graduated grading system. They are eager to identify gifted students and thus pay less attention to underachievers. I have seen this all through my high school years, and in most classes, with the exception of math.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Militarisation???? The Discipline required for life is not imposed from outside but from the heart and mind through practices demonstrated by good examples of teachers. Military discipline leads to atrocities where doing the job, following the rules overcomes our humanity and compassion. True education that creates fully participating human beings as citizens is not what the powers of this world desire so it is not funded for all equally. elite schools and universities are preferenced to keep the power where it should stay ie. with those who have it, our betters. Still touches of the Victorian Britain exist or it's equivalent.
Why should executives earn more than the doorkeeper. Is it not his duty to use his talents for the good of all. At least he should pay proper taxes. Tax avoidance is self indulgence.
In the minds of those in power Eugenics is practised. Everyone has a right to equal educational opportunities, a roof over their heads and food on the table. Greed reigns and we get boys and their toys in the way of "starship" launches in the name of progress. So do the rich intend to waste the resources of this planet and leave us to it.

In Love
Jay

I didn't say give them guns.