The fifth seal great tribulation martyrs

[keras]

My chart is right. There is one Day of the Lord, not Days of the Lord.

There are many events that take place during that one Day of the Lord which lasts for eternity.

Have you got anybody to agree with your chart?
How can it be that the Anti-Christ rises to power without any change to the current world situation?

It is evident that there are coming two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord acts to punish His enemies.
The Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, is the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide judgement/punishment by fire from the sun, which will clear and cleanse His Land and commence all the prophesied end time events.
Most clearly described in Isaiah 30:25-30, Isaiah 63:1-6 and Habakkuk 3:12 ‘Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.’ But the Lord is not seen: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11

Then, much later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, when He disposes of the armies of the Anti Christ.
Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5

Eternity comes when all the Days of the Lord have been completed.​

 

[Douggg]

How can it be that the Anti-Christ rises to power without any change to the current world situation?

Indicate specifically where on my chart are you referring to? It starts in the upper left hand corner with the person as the Little horn - leader of the EU.

It doesn't take a cataclysmic event for that to happen.

 

[keras]

Indicate specifically where on my chart are you referring to? It starts in the upper left hand corner with the person as the Little horn - leader of the EU.

It doesn't take a cataclysmic event for that to happen.

As the European Union is practically defunct, your beliefs go down with it.

The powers behind the scenes have been trying for 100+ years to establish a One World Government. They know it will take some kind of dramatic event to force the nations to relinquish their sovereignty. From what I gather a nuke war in the Middle East is what they plan. This is now very close to happening.
But we know from Gods Word, thru His prophets that when it starts, the Lord will intervene and destroy them all. Ezekiel 7:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, & 3:8
There are over 100 prophesies that describe this Day of the Lords wrath by fire, why do you place them when Jesus Returns?

 

[Dave L]

To them who claim the events of the first sixth seals have happened already.

Revelation 7:13-14 proves that notion wrong.

The great multitude in Revelation 7:9-12 are them seen in Revelation 6 when the fifth seal is opened.


In Revelation 7:13-14. The elder answered the question that everyone is wondering - who is this great multitude....?

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I [*John] said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.

And he [*the elder] said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

________________________________________________________________

How did the elder (and John) know that they had come out of great tribulation?

It is because John and the elder in Revelation 6 both saw the red, the black, and the pale horses riders of the great tribulation. And they both had seen the great tribulation martyrs when the fifth seal was removed. Not all of them, for they were told to wait until their number was complete.

*my comment

I believe they are Christian martyrs of all time. The church lives in great tribulation not to be confused with the great Jewish tribulation of Matthew 24 which happened in 70 AD.

 

[Douggg]

I believe they are Christian martyrs of all time. The church lives in great tribulation not to be confused with the great Jewish tribulation of Matthew 24 which happened in 70 AD.

Dave, there are a lot of people who believe that. But the riders on the red horse, black horse, pale horses are the great tribulation getting worse and worse. The result is the martyred great tribulation saints in the fifth seal.

In Revelation 7, as the great multitude is seen, it is sort of puzzling the way it is written - about one of the elders "answered" when no question was asked in the text.

It has to be presumed therefore, that the elder is answering what is on everyone's mind - who are this great multitude?

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

The way John responded, he said, Sir though knowest. A way of saying - you know who they are. Because both he and John had seen the great tribulation as the seals were opened of the red horse, black horse, pale horse getting progressively worse - and the martyrs in the fifth seal as being out of the great tribulation. It is not looking back over history - albeit there have been a huge number of martyrs in Christianity since the beginning.

 

[Douggg]

There are over 100 prophesies that describe this Day of the Lords wrath by fire, why do you place them when Jesus Returns?

I did not show on my chart any of the those sorts of details. Because I am not presenting a conspiracy theory - like you are about a one world government and nuclear war in the middle east to achieve it.

Basically what you have in your pre-70th week cataclysmic solar flare event theory is two great tribulations. One before the 70th week begins. And then another later, after the Antichrist person confirms the covenant for 7 years.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, there are a lot of people who believe that. But the riders on the red horse, black horse, pale horses are the great tribulation getting worse and worse. The result is the martyred great tribulation saints in the fifth seal.

In Revelation 7, as the great multitude is seen, it is sort of puzzling the way it is written - about one of the elders "answered" when no question was asked in the text.

It has to be presumed therefore, that the elder is answering what is on everyone's mind - who are this great multitude?

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

The way John responded, he said, Sir though knowest. A way of saying - you know who they are. Because both he and John had seen the great tribulation as the seals were opened of the red horse, black horse, pale horse getting progressively worse - and the martyrs in the fifth seal as being out of the great tribulation. It is not looking back over history - albeit there have been a huge number of martyrs in Christianity since the beginning.

We've been seeing all of this from the first century on. The oldest commentary on Revelation taught the recapitulation view and it makes far more sense than any I've studied. Once you see how it works.

 

[Douggg]

We've been seeing all of this from the first century on. The oldest commentary on Revelation taught the recapitulation view and it makes far more sense than any I've studied. Once you see how it works.

The recapitulation view puts the riders of the red, black, pale horses in sporadic form instead of the sequential form, progressively getting worse as presented in the text.

 

[Dave L]

The recapitulation view puts the riders of the red, black, pale horses in sporadic form instead of the sequential form, progressively getting worse as presented in the text.

They are symbols that repeat throughout history. Can you recognize them in history or today? Does Covid 19 ring a bell?

 

[Douggg]

They are symbols that repeat throughout history. Can you recognize them in history or today? Does Covid 19 ring a bell?

But the text does not present the riders as being in repeat sporadic form.

The white horse rider begins the 7 years, and the red, then black, then pale horse riders show the great tribulation gets worse until the great tribulation martyrs appears in the fifth seal.

And after their numbers have reached their full, the sixth seal event takes place - which certainly can not be attributed to history.

 

[Dave L]

But the text does not present the riders as being in repeat sporadic form.

The white horse rider begins the 7 years, and the red, then black, then pale horse riders show the great tribulation gets worse until the great tribulation martyrs appears in the fifth seal.

And after their numbers have reached their full, the sixth seal event takes place - which certainly can not be attributed to history.

Compare the Bowls, Trumpets, and Vials. They are like the 4 gospels each depicting the same thing.

 

[Douggg]

Compare the Bowls, Trumpets, and Vials. They are like the 4 gospels each depicting the same thing.

"Bowls" is not the word used in the KJV. The word is "vials".

Trumpets (the 7 angels sounding) and the vials of God's wrath.

The 7 years
7 seals
7 angels sounding their trumpets (during the great tribulation)
7 bowls of God's wrath (during the great tribulation)

 

[keras]

Basically what you have in your pre-70th week cataclysmic solar flare event theory is two great tribulations. One before the 70th week begins. And then another later, after the Antichrist person confirms the covenant for 7 years.

Yes, as the Bible prophets do say; there will be a world changer first, th Day of the Lords fiery wrath; then the AC will rise to lead a OWG, then when he desecrates the Temple, the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will take place.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, as the Bible prophets do say; there will be a world changer first, th Day of the Lords fiery wrath; then the AC will rise to lead a OWG, then when he desecrates the Temple, the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will take place.

The bible prophets don't "say" that. You are applying your own scenario and interpretations in coming up with a theory, and timeline of events.

 

[Dave L]

"Bowls" is not the word used in the KJV. The word is "vials".

Trumpets (the 7 angels sounding) and the vials of God's wrath.

The 7 years
7 seals
7 angels sounding their trumpets (during the great tribulation)
7 bowls of God's wrath (during the great tribulation)

Revelation is mostly a giant Rorschach test for prophecy buffs today. Jesus says we understand prophecy after he fulfills it. All attempts to connect the dots before that can be nothing more than a false for the most part.

Revelation is symbolic, just like the OT kingdom prophecies. And unless we understand the kingdom as purely spiritual according to Jesus, we will never connect with reality trying to make something out of the book.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation is mostly a giant Rorschach test for prophecy buffs today. Jesus says we understand prophecy after he fulfills it. All attempts to connect the dots before that can be nothing more than a false for the most part.

Revelation is symbolic, just like the OT kingdom prophecies. And unless we understand the kingdom as purely spiritual according to Jesus, we will never connect with reality trying to make something out of the book.

....there are them who held that sort of attitude right up to when Noah entered the ark.

 

[BABerean2]

The recapitulation view puts the riders of the red, black, pale horses in sporadic form instead of the sequential form, progressively getting worse as presented in the text.

If the recapitulation view is not correct, why is the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, along with reward for some, and destruction for others, and there is also a judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20?

If recapitulation is not correct why does Christ come as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19?

The recapitulation view is the only view that gets rid of the confusion produced by others.

(A pastor speaks on the Recapitulation of visions in the Book of Revelation)

.

 

[Dave L]

....there are them who held that sort of attitude right up to when Noah entered the ark.

According to Robert Whitelaw Noah was one of a few prophecies that came to pass as written. He says 88% of the time they did not. So we need to wait and see the fulfillment before speculating too much.

 

[Douggg]

If the recapitulation view is not correct, why is the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, along with reward for some, and destruction for others, and there is also a judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20?

If recapitulation is not correct why does Christ come as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19?

The recapitulation view is the only view that gets rid of the confusion produced by others.

(A pastor speaks on the Recapitulation of visions in the Book of Revelation)

.

....put recapitulation theory on a timeline chart.

 

[grafted branch]

But the riders on the red horse, black horse, pale horses are the great tribulation getting worse and worse. The result is the martyred great tribulation saints in the fifth seal.

Why can’t all 4 horsemen be Christ?

The first horse can certainly be Christ based on the white color, the crown that was given him, and the other attributes listed.

The second horse is red which could refer to the red heifer. This rider takes peace from the earth and has a great sword. In Ephesians 6:17 it states the sword of the Spirit is the word of God. Christ certainly spoke the words of God. In Matthew 10:34 Jesus came not to send peace but a sword. Luke 12:51-53 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division. So Christ actually caused division or took away the peace.

The third horse is black which certainly can represent sin. The rider has a balance and is told the cost of wheat and barley. Wheat is refed to as believers in Matthew 13:30. Barley can be seen as sin that is remembered. In Numbers 5:15, concerning a jealous husband, it states “then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance”. The offering of barley meal brings into remembrance iniquity. So Christ sees what the cost will be to redeem, He ultimately (when the next seal is opened) pays the price for the wheat (takes on our black sin) but doesn’t purchase the barley (limited atonement).

The fourth horse is green <5515> which can represent new life for believers that are now the body of Christ. The riders name is death and hell follows with him. In 2 Corinthians 5:21 Christ became sin for us and in Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death. In 1 Corinthians 15:55 “O death where is thy sting? O grave (or hell <86>), where is thy victory? ”. Hell follows with death in that they are both conquered or overcome by Christ. The power that was given over the fourth part of the earth refers back to the wheat which was 1 measure and the barley which was 3 measures. It is the world that continues to be able to physically kill the believers or 4th part despite Christ becoming death for us and overcoming it. I think this statement is simply reiterating the fact that physical acts against believers will continue until the end. When the next seal is opened those who were killed are told to rest a little season until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.