Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

[ClementofA]

WHY are there so many people who have come up with such false teachings, one of them being Universalism in theses last days?

Universalism has been around since the early church, not just "in these last days". Of course it was suppressed & persecuted unto death by endless tortures believing "the church" for many centuries of the dark & middle ages, holy crusade wars, Inquisitional torture chambers & burning so-called "heretics" to death by fire.

In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages. It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming, the majority Christian view (see urls below):

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

 

[ClementofA]

How can people read a Scripture with lets use the word "ALL" and believe it means EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be saved in the end including Satan when the overwhelming majority of the Scriptures tell us that only those who accept Christ will be saved.

Universalists believe both "only those who accept Christ will be saved" and "EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be saved in the end". There is nothing contradictory or illogical about that.

As for Satan being saved, universalism has nothing - at all - to say about Satan. And i've already corrected you multiple times re your error, yet you continue to spread that false claim.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

 

[ClementofA]

Revelation 20:10.......
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Revelation 20:15
"And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Revelation 19:20
"And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone."

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I am sure that you will forgive me if I believe the Word of God over your opinions.

I have said this many times and I say it again. There are NO Scriptures which support Universal salvation. The only way it can be done is to TWIST the Scriptures to make them say something that they do not say.

Those verses have been addressed from a universalist perspective many times. Simply repeating them ad nauseum while not addressing the universalist posts in response makes your view look weak.

Do you think the teaching of universalism will keep any of the elect from being saved from the lake of fire? If so, why, for Scripture says:

Jer.29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God, or I speak from Myself. (Jn.7:17).

So are you wasting your time here opposing universalism? Shouldn't you instead be sharing the gospel with the unsaved to save them from being tortured in fire forever by your God? Yet here you are chatting away the day with Christians.


----------------------------------------------


1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.


************************************************


Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

 

[ClementofA]

"God so loved the world…" (John 3:16).

"Go ye into all the world…" (Mark 16:15).

Such verses are the basis of the thought that the go and preach the gospel to every creature of Mark 16:15 refers to going to every person of every race on earth. Let us consider some of the words in these verses.

Preach or kerusso means to proclaim, or to announce good news like a town crier. It does not mean “to make disciples” or “to evangelize”, as many teach. But where were they to make their proclamations? Was it to everyone of every race? Let us look at every creature. The Greek word ktisis is given by:

Strong's G2936-7 as “original formation, building, creature, and ordinance”.

Vine’s Dictionary of New Testament Words: “Ktizo is used among the Greeks to mean the foundation of a place, a city, or a colony...It is a significant confirmation of Rom 1:20,21 that in all non-Christian Greek literature these words (ktizo and its derivatives) are never used by Greeks to convey the idea of a Creator or of a creative act by any of their gods. The words are confined by them to the acts of human beings."

This is the creature (or rather, creation) of Mark 16:15. The word ktisis in the Greek is used to indicate the product of human building or formation. In this context it refers to a village, or place where people live. A ktisis is built by man, not YEHOVAH God. The disciples were to go specifically to the places or the villages or places where the Israelites lived.

"Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, til the Son of Man be come" (Matthew 10:23).

We cannot make “the cities of Israel” to mean the cities of every race. Note here that the Messiah is speaking of the time of the end.

What is the area of proclamation? Is it not all the world of Israel?

What were they proclaiming? Was it not the Gospel of the Kingdom?
18 Bible verses about Lake Of Fire

What in the - world - does that opinion have to do with what i posted:

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.


************************************

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

 

[Major1]

What in the - world - does that opinion have to do with what i posted:

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.


************************************

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

It has to do with your lack of understanding the word "ALL".

 

[Major1]

Those verses have been addressed from a universalist perspective many times. Simply repeating them ad nauseum while not addressing the universalist posts in response makes your view look weak.

Do you think the teaching of universalism will keep any of the elect from being saved from the lake of fire? If so, why, for Scripture says:

Jer.29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God, or I speak from Myself. (Jn.7:17).

So are you wasting your time here opposing universalism? Shouldn't you instead be sharing the gospel with the unsaved to save them from being tortured in fire forever by your God? Yet here you are chatting away the day with Christians.


----------------------------------------------


1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.


************************************************


Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

I certainly would be if I was not recovering from spinal surgery.

 

[Major1]

Universalists believe both "only those who accept Christ will be saved" and "EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be saved in the end". There is nothing contradictory or illogical about that.

As for Satan being saved, universalism has nothing - at all - to say about Satan. And i've already corrected you multiple times re your error, yet you continue to spread that false claim.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

Matt. 7:13-14...…..
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it,".

Matt. 22:14...…….
"For many are called, but few are chosen,"

Romans 9:27...……...
"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly,"

How many people do you think are deceived by universalism's comfortable message that all will be saved without knowing that the core of the teaching says that SATAN will be saved?

From your seemingly ignorance of some of your proponents teaching of Universalism, I guess that you are unaware of Paul Copan, professor of philosophy and ethics at Palm Beach Atlantic University. The title of his book is "The Devil’s Redemption".

Even if Satan were to repent of his great sins, (which it is not possible) he must have an atonement that would be sufficient for angels and that does not exist.

NOW YOU KNOW!

There is NO salvation for demons and or Satan and only the humans who repent of thier sins before death can be saved.

 

[Major1]

Universalists believe both "only those who accept Christ will be saved" and "EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be saved in the end". There is nothing contradictory or illogical about that.

As for Satan being saved, universalism has nothing - at all - to say about Satan. And i've already corrected you multiple times re your error, yet you continue to spread that false claim.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

""only those who accept Christ will be saved" and "EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be saved in the end".

Those two phrases are NOT contradictory and illogical????

Who are you trying to kid my friend!!!

No wonder you have so much trouble with the word "ALL".
32 Funny Photos Of People Doing Stupid Things

 

[ClementofA]

Matt. 7:13-14...…..
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it,".

Matt. 22:14...…….
"For many are called, but few are chosen,"

Romans 9:27...……...
"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly,"

Those verses have been addressed here from a universalist perspective many times. Simply repeating them ad nauseum while not addressing the universalist posts in response makes your view look weak.

Do you think the teaching of universalism will keep any of the elect from being saved from the lake of fire? If so, why, for Scripture says:

Jer.29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God, or I speak from Myself. (Jn.7:17).

So are you wasting your time here opposing universalism? Shouldn't you instead be sharing the gospel with the unsaved to save them from being tortured in fire forever by your God? Yet here you are chatting away the day with Christians.


----------------------------------------------


1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.


************************************************



Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

 

[ClementofA]

How many people do you think are deceived by universalism's comfortable message that all will be saved without knowing that the core of the teaching says that SATAN will be saved?

.............

Monday, May 19, 2008
Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

Must a universalist believe that Satan will be saved?

The FACTS are that universalism teaches that even SATAN will be saved in the end.

The Evangelical Universalist: Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

Here you begin by quoting from the site you linked to, yet my search of the page did not find the words you posted above, namely:

"The FACTS are that universalism teaches that even SATAN will be saved in the end."

In fact immediately after the statement "Must a universalist believe that Satan will be saved?" (as you quoted above) it states:

"Not necessarily. A universalist could believe that God will save all humans but perhaps not fallen angels."

Quite different from what you apparently have it saying above, that:

"The FACTS are that universalism teaches that even SATAN will be saved in the end."

Which is false.

By definition universalism means that all humans will be saved:

"a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved"

Definition of UNIVERSALISM

Universalism says nothing at all about Satan, his salvation, or even his existence.


***************************************************




""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Can Love Omnipotent save Satan

Do you believe that salvation is extended to angels, including Satan? : ChristianUniversalism



============================================

How can people read a Scripture with lets use the word "ALL" and believe it means EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be saved in the end including Satan when the overwhelming majority of the Scriptures tell us that only those who accept Christ will be saved.

Universalists believe both "only those who accept Christ will be saved" and "EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be saved in the end". There is nothing contradictory or illogical about that.

As for Satan being saved, universalism has nothing - at all - to say about Satan. And i've already corrected you multiple times re your error, yet you continue to spread that false claim.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

 

[ClementofA]

Even if Satan were to repent of his great sins, (which it is not possible) he must have an atonement that would be sufficient for angels and that does not exist.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Can Love Omnipotent save Satan

Do you believe that salvation is extended to angels, including Satan? : ChristianUniversalism

 

[ClementofA]

""only those who accept Christ will be saved" and "EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be saved in the end".

Those two phrases are NOT contradictory and illogical????

Who are you trying to kid my friend!!!

No wonder you have so much trouble with the word "ALL".
32 Funny Photos Of People Doing Stupid Things

That's exactly what your response amounts to.

Perhaps a course in basic logic would help.

I've successfully completed university level Philosophy courses re epistemology & metaphysics, including much emphasis on logic.

 

[Major1]

That's exactly what your response amounts to.

Perhaps a course in basic logic would help.

I've successfully completed university level Philosophy courses re epistemology & metaphysics, including much emphasis on logic.

All that means is that you have been educated beyond your intelligence.

Philosophy as it was explained to me by the professor when I attended said that-Philosophy is like a BLIND MAN in a room painted BLACK, looking for a BLACK cat. The more I learned about this the more I realized that the philosophic approach is nothing more than answering a question with a question which is pretty much what you have been doing all along.

Since METAPHYSICS is the most abstract branch of philosophy, it goes a long way in understanding why you have so much problems accepting the simple Word of God.

 

[Major1]

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Can Love Omnipotent save Satan

However, the simple and clear Word of God says in Revelation 20:10.......
"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

LOGICALLY then I have two choices.

1. Accept and believe your personal opinions.
2. Accept and believe God's Word.

 

[Major1]

.............



Here you begin by quoting from the site you linked to, yet my search of the page did not find the words you posted above, namely:

"The FACTS are that universalism teaches that even SATAN will be saved in the end."

In fact immediately after the statement "Must a universalist believe that Satan will be saved?" (as you quoted above) it states:

"Not necessarily. A universalist could believe that God will save all humans but perhaps not fallen angels."

Quite different from what you apparently have it saying above, that:

"The FACTS are that universalism teaches that even SATAN will be saved in the end."

Which is false.

By definition universalism means that all humans will be saved:

"a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved"

Definition of UNIVERSALISM

Universalism says nothing at all about Satan, his salvation, or even his existence.


***************************************************




""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Can Love Omnipotent save Satan

Do you believe that salvation is extended to angels, including Satan? : ChristianUniversalism



============================================






Universalists believe both "only those who accept Christ will be saved" and "EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be saved in the end". There is nothing contradictory or illogical about that.

As for Satan being saved, universalism has nothing - at all - to say about Satan. And i've already corrected you multiple times re your error, yet you continue to spread that false claim.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

I am sorry you had problems with that link. Maybe try again.

While you are waing here then is another link.......
evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/2008/05/universalism-and-salvation-of-satan.html

At that link----
The Evangelical Universalist
Gregory MacDonald, author of The Evangelical Universalist (Cascade Books, 2006 & SPCK, 2008), does the odd bit of blogging and interacts with anyone who is interested in a chatting about issues surrounding universalism.


Monday, May 19, 2008
Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

Speaking to the question of whether Satan would be saved, In the 4th paragraph Mr. MacDonald said......…….

There are two problems with this and both are big.
1. Scripture indicates otherwise (Rev 20)
2. the Christian tradition is clear that Satan will not be redeemed (indeed, contrary to popular opinion, not even Origen claimed that Satan would be saved).
The only way that I can think to get out of this bind is to suggest that Lucifer (the good being created by God) will be saved but that Satan (the name for Lucifer-as-corrupted) will be destroyed.

LOGICALLY and PHILOSOPHICALLY, and BIBLICALLY, would you care to explain the TWO SATANS??????

Please post the book, chapter and verse that tells us about the two Satans.

 

[ClementofA]

All that means is that you have been educated beyond your intelligence.

Philosophy as it was explained to me by the professor when I attended said that-Philosophy is like a BLIND MAN in a room painted BLACK, looking for a BLACK cat. The more I learned about this the more I realized that the philosophic approach is nothing more than answering a question with a question which is pretty much what you have been doing all along.

Since METAPHYSICS is the most abstract branch of philosophy, it goes a long way in understanding why you have so much problems accepting the simple Word of God.

This has nothing to do with philosophy & is all about the illogic of your comment:

How can people read a Scripture with lets use the word "ALL" and believe it means EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be saved in the end including Satan when the overwhelming majority of the Scriptures tell us that only those who accept Christ will be saved.

Universalists believe both "only those who accept Christ will be saved" and "EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be saved in the end". There is nothing contradictory or illogical about that.

 

[ClementofA]

However, the simple and clear Word of God says in Revelation 20:10.......
"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

LOGICALLY then I have two choices.

1. Accept and believe your personal opinions.
2. Accept and believe God's Word.

The real question is, how do you harmonize that deceptive, misleading, dishonest, nonliteral paraphrase with what Scripture actually literally says:

There are wicked spirits in heavenly places, but they are not humans:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."


Can Love Omnipotent save Satan

Do you believe that salvation is extended to angels, including Satan? : ChristianUniversalism

Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Lord Jesus, are there few that be saved? - Christianity -  - Page 87 - City-Data Forum


12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[ClementofA]

I am sorry you had problems with that link. Maybe try again.

While you are waing here then is another link.......
evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/2008/05/universalism-and-salvation-of-satan.html

At that link----
The Evangelical Universalist
Gregory MacDonald, author of The Evangelical Universalist (Cascade Books, 2006 & SPCK, 2008), does the odd bit of blogging and interacts with anyone who is interested in a chatting about issues surrounding universalism.


Monday, May 19, 2008
Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

Speaking to the question of whether Satan would be saved, In the 4th paragraph Mr. MacDonald said......…….

There are two problems with this and both are big.
1. Scripture indicates otherwise (Rev 20)
2. the Christian tradition is clear that Satan will not be redeemed (indeed, contrary to popular opinion, not even Origen claimed that Satan would be saved).
The only way that I can think to get out of this bind is to suggest that Lucifer (the good being created by God) will be saved but that Satan (the name for Lucifer-as-corrupted) will be destroyed.

LOGICALLY and PHILOSOPHICALLY, and BIBLICALLY, would you care to explain the TWO SATANS??????

Please post the book, chapter and verse that tells us about the two Satans.

Evidently he's talking about the Satan nature of Lucifer being destroyed that he may be saved. A similar idea is found in many Scriptures such as:

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

and those listed here:

“Old Man” and “New Man” in Paul | Bible.org

As for Satan being saved, see my previous post in this thread.

 

[Der Alte]

***

Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:
12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

•Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
• (Second Clement ibid., 17:7)
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’".
•Ignatius of Antioch[a student of John]
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
• Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
• (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
• The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
• (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
• Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
• Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
• Irenaeus[Student of Polycarp a student of John]
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . it is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
• Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
• (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
• Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
• Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
• Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
• Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
• Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).
Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, E.W. Bullinger
Po-lyp'-to-ton. Greek, from (polüs), many, and (ptosis), a falling: in grammar, a case (from an assumed form ptoo, to fall). Hence, Polyptoton means with many cases, i.e., a repetition of the same noun in several cases, or of the same verb in several moods or tenses. With many inflections is a definition which covers both nouns and verbs.
It is called also METAGOGE. Greek, from (meta), a change, and ago, to lead. It means a change of courses: a different arrangement of the same word, a leading of the same word through different inflections.

284 FIGURES OF SPEECH.​

in A.V. and R.V. this is rendered, “The Lord your God is God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God” etc.
1 Kings V111. 27.- The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee”: i.e., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. L etc. Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity.
Song Sol. i. I.—” The song of songs,” i.e., the most beautiful or excellent song.
Dan. ii. 37. Ezek. xxvi. 17.—” A king of kings”: i.e.. the most mighty king.
Dan. ii. 47.—” God of gods.: i.e.. the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25..—” The Prince or princes”: i.e., the most powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15. So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’. The figure is here translated. and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil.”
Micah ii. 4.—” A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Hos. x. 15. So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’. The figure is here translated. and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil.”
Micah ii. 4.—” A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Phil. 1ii. . “.A Hebrew or the Hebrews," i.e., a thorough Hebrew. See this verse under Asyndeton.
I Tim. vi. 15.—.”The King or kings, and Lord of lords." Compare Rev. xvi. 14 and iz. 16.
Rev. i. 6.—” The ages of the ages.. i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever. ​

 

[ClementofA]

284 FIGURES OF SPEECH.​

in A.V. and R.V. this is rendered, “The Lord your God is God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God” etc.
1 Kings V111. 27.- The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee”: i.e., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. L etc. Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity.
Song Sol. i. I.—” The song of songs,” i.e., the most beautiful or excellent song.
Dan. ii. 37. Ezek. xxvi. 17.—” A king of kings”: i.e.. the most mighty king.
Dan. ii. 47.—” God of gods.: i.e.. the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25..—” The Prince or princes”: i.e., the most powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15. So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’. The figure is here translated. and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil.”
Micah ii. 4.—” A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Hos. x. 15. So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’. The figure is here translated. and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil.”
Micah ii. 4.—” A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Phil. 1ii. . “.A Hebrew or the Hebrews," i.e., a thorough Hebrew. See this verse under Asyndeton.
I Tim. vi. 15.—.”The King or kings, and Lord of lords." Compare Rev. xvi. 14 and iz. 16.
Rev. i. 6.—” The ages of the ages.. i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever. ​

. . .

This sounds good in UR country but one should study a little about Hebrew.
Biblical Hebrew lacked superlatives so for emphasis words were repeated this is called polyptoton.
One of the earliest examples is in Genesis 2:17 when God told Adam "in the day you eat of the fruit you shall surely die. Hebrew is "muth t'muth." "dying you shall die."
Here from E.W. Bullinger's "Figures of Speech used in the Bible." pg. 284
284 FIGURES OF SPEECH.
in A.V. and R.V. this is rendered, “The Lord your God is God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God” etc.
1 Kings V111. 27.- The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee”: i.e., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. L etc. Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity.
Song Sol. i. I.—” The song of songs,” i.e., the most beautiful or excellent song.
Dan. ii. 37. Ezek. xxvi. 17.—” A king of kings”: i.e.. the most mighty king.
Dan. ii. 47.—” God of gods.: i.e.. the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25..—” The Prince or princes”: i.e., the most powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15. So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’. The figure is here translated. and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil.”
Micah ii. 4.—” A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Phil. 1ii. . “.A Hebrew or the Hebrews," i.e., a thorough Hebrew. See this verse under Asyndeton.
I Tim. vi. 15.—.”The King or kings, and Lord of lords." Compare Rev. xvi. 14 and iz. 16.
Rev. i. 6.—” The ages of the ages.. i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever.

What has Hebrew to do with my post about Rev.20:10 which is from the Greek NT?

BTW your pope of all popes EOB Bible translates Rev.20:10 using the English word "ages" not "for ever and ever" self contradictory non literal nonsense that changes God's Words & deceives readers.

So who is wrong? Bullinger or your pope of all Bible versions?


*****************************************


"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jer.8:8)

LYING SCRIBES...AIONION:

Could most modern translations be in error?

Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?


*********************************************


As to Bullinger's comments, i've addressed them before as follows:

Bullinger is certainly entitled to his wrong opinion. However, since Scripture always trumps opinions & bulloni, in this case it also trumps the bulloni of Bullinger.

As for Bullinger's biased opinion, he gives no evidence for his viewpoint of "the ages of the ages"meaning "to the remotest age". Why did he not instead determine it means to the remotest "ages" (plural) since the word is in the plural? Why not "to the most excellent age" or ages, as he states re the "song of songs"? Or "to the greatest ages" as he states regarding "vanity of vanities"? Why blindly accept Bullinger's bald unsupported opinion? Is he a pope? Did he know Greek better than the early church universalists, such as the church father Origen, who spoke of an end of all ages, an end of age of the ages & an end of ages of the ages? If these periods of finite time have an end, then they are not, as Bullinger claims, for ever and ever.

Furthermore, he gives no reason for how he magicly leaps from "to the remotest age" to "for ever and ever". If torment is "to" or "until" a certain age, then it ends before that age starts, so it is not for ever and ever. If torment is "into" (EIS) "the remotest age", that does not necessarily mean it lasts for the entire duration of that age, even if the age is endless. If torment is "into the ages of the ages", the torment makes entrance into those ages, not necessarily throughout the entire duration of them. Therefore the torment "into the ages of the ages" (e.g. Rev.20:10) is of an indefinite period of time. From other Scriptures it is clear that the torment ends.

5 Scriptural evidences that ages of ages end:

(1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

(2) The saints reign for "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

continued at:

12 points re forever and ever being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER: