Looters ransack Target store

[agapelove]

Agapelove, I am sympathetic to your feelings and your stance, as is most everyone here. We are not your enemies, yet it could be conceived you have an inherent disdain for even the Christian brothers and sisters here on this site. I imagine you are a very fair person in life, but to me your post seem very close minded and predetermined. I really haven't seen anyone say there is not a problem, we just dispute how it became a problem and how to fix it. Again, we are not your enemies. Sometimes injustice so infiltrates the mind that it embitters the soul. when that happens rational behavior is affected. It's a disease called hate! I think it is part of what Dr. King was addressing. Fear also becomes a factor in this, as people react differently when they fear something. In a lot of cases, some form of resistance to police is involved and then the police react to that as a precursor to more violent behavior. While the person they are engaged with is reacting out of fear and predetermined beliefs that they will not be treated fairly. It's a crap storm waiting to happen.

In the prison ministry we once had a commencement speaker come in (he was black), who was an ex-con and had founded a non-profit to help people succeed after incarceration. He made one statement I thought had a lot of wisdom to it. He told the graduates ( I minister in a juvenile facility ) there was a simple way to never become a victim of police brutality. He told them it was very simple, no one is shot for answering a police officer with the response, "yes sir" and then doing what was ask of them. He said, on the street in the heat of the moment is not the time to argue your case and resist, let the lawyers do that later. He said, if your truly innocent then cooperate and answer the questions politely and you'll most likely be home for supper. why is that so difficult?

If you think a black person is safe by saying his “sirs” and “ma’ams” then you have no idea what is going on. I do not have disdain for Christians, I have disdain for people who clearly do not recognize their own privilege while commenting on communities that they are so far removed from. All the while defending murderers in uniform, asking ridiculous questions that try to justify the death of another black man at the hands of an officer. I have seen hundreds of videos from the protests and 90% of the time it is the POLICE acting violent, aggressive, and THUGGISH. I have seen dozens of videos of masked white men walking around aimlessly smashing windows and trying to start fires. I am tired of the blame somehow ALWAYS coming back to the black community saying they are “re-inforcing” their own stigma. I UNDERSTAND the anger people feel when they see small businesses destroyed, and I AGREE that should not be happening. But a riot is a riot, looting is looting, they are both VALID forms of protests and it is hard to put REGULATIONS on them. Most of the looting videos I’ve seen are of big corporations and multi-millionaire businesses, I have absolutely no problem with those. Most small businesses have started donation campaigns and have received an outpour of support and love from both their own communities and people from around the country and worldwide. Everybody is watching what’s going on right now. It is UNFORTUNATE that they will have to rebuild their businesses, and I wish there were ways that it could have been avoided but we both know there are no “guidelines” for riots and looting once sh** hits the fan. I am not encouraging or condoning the destruction of small businesses but I will NOT encourage or condone people who sit on their high horse and try to discount the entire demonstration. Like King said urban rioting and looting is a RECOGNIZED form of protest— it is intended to SHOCK you and EXPOSE your capitalist mindset. So if you feel angry right now do not direct your anger and blame at the rioters and looters, direct it at the system that caused them. That system is working hard right now to distract you, trying to incite more and more anger in the streets until suddenly you forget what we’re fighting for. Don’t be a pawn in their game. Don’t forget who the real villains are no matter WHAT is happening in the streets. Do not allow this to all be for NOTHING. Use your voice to go against the REAL underlying injustice that has been brewing for DECADES.

 

[bèlla]

I’m a woman of color and I’ve had NO dealings with police officers. The same holds true for my family members which include men of color. The narrative is false.

We aren’t afraid of the police. We’re law abiding citizens who behave responsibly and haven’t forgotten the value of civility and manners. There are many Americans of different hues who can say the same.

~Bella

 

[dogs4thewin]

Material things can be replaced but lives cannot. Furthermore people have set things on fire over sports so is this really all that outrageous?

lives cannot be replaced no matter what. In other words, no lives cannot be replaced by doing nothing, but nor can they be replaced by looting and arson ( in fact that just ends up if anything costing MORE lives that cannot be replaced.

 

[Sparagmos]

I think the rioters aren't interested at all in being heard. They are taking advantage of a situation to loot, destroy and steal.

As King said, we've just learned the content of their character.

What did king say again about the content of rioters’ character? Give us the quote.

 

[A_Thinker]

We aren’t afraid of the police. We’re law abiding citizens who behave responsibly and haven’t forgotten the value of civility and manners. There are many Americans of different hues who can say the same.

I'm an African-American man who can say much the same.

Our parent's raised us to respect the police. We have friends and relatives who are police.

Fortunately, none of my interactions with police have been tragic. There have been occasions of rudeness, ... but I try to keep in mind what police frequently have to deal with ... and hold my tongue at perceived injustice. A community ethic is similar to that of the Obamas. We go high, ... so that we don't have to go low.

That isn't to say that we don't recognize the injustice in a man dying on the street ... by a knee in the neck for 8-9 minutes. This, and similar injustices need to be addressed. A young man met his death by the hands of police not 1/2 mile from my home in the past month. But for the horrendousness of the George Floyd incident, ... the protests could be happening here.

As for Minneapolis, opportunists have now displaced actual protesters in creating havoc in that city ... and others. Floyd's family has asked for peace.

We need to respect that ...

 

[agapelove]

lives cannot be replaced no matter what. In other words, no lives cannot be replaced by doing nothing, but nor can they be replaced by looting and arson ( in fact that just ends up if anything costing MORE lives that cannot be replaced.

And neither will bombing Afghanistan bring back the twin towers. You are talking about a country that GLORIFIES fighting violence with violence just take a look at our president's recent tweets. I am not advocating for violence but I will also not demand politeness in the face of institutional murder. By doing so I am asking people to quietly assent to their own deaths to cosset my own sense of normality. You can't pick and choose who is allowed to use violence.

 

[Nithavela]

Agapelove, I am sympathetic to your feelings and your stance, as is most everyone here. We are not your enemies, yet it could be conceived you have an inherent disdain for even the Christian brothers and sisters here on this site. I imagine you are a very fair person in life, but to me your post seem very close minded and predetermined. I really haven't seen anyone say there is not a problem, we just dispute how it became a problem and how to fix it. Again, we are not your enemies. Sometimes injustice so infiltrates the mind that it embitters the soul. when that happens rational behavior is affected. It's a disease called hate! I think it is part of what Dr. King was addressing. Fear also becomes a factor in this, as people react differently when they fear something. In a lot of cases, some form of resistance to police is involved and then the police react to that as a precursor to more violent behavior. While the person they are engaged with is reacting out of fear and predetermined beliefs that they will not be treated fairly. It's a crap storm waiting to happen.

In the prison ministry we once had a commencement speaker come in (he was black), who was an ex-con and had founded a non-profit to help people succeed after incarceration. He made one statement I thought had a lot of wisdom to it. He told the graduates ( I minister in a juvenile facility ) there was a simple way to never become a victim of police brutality. He told them it was very simple, no one is shot for answering a police officer with the response, "yes sir" and then doing what was ask of them. He said, on the street in the heat of the moment is not the time to argue your case and resist, let the lawyers do that later. He said, if your truly innocent then cooperate and answer the questions politely and you'll most likely be home for supper. why is that so difficult?

Most lawyers strongly advise to never answer questions without a lawyer present. They say that the belief you can just answer questions and get off the hook is misguided in nearly all cases.

 

[Nithavela]

If you think a black person is safe by saying his “sirs” and “ma’ams” then you have no idea what is going on. I do not have disdain for Christians, I have disdain for people who clearly do not recognize their own privilege while commenting on communities that they are so far removed from. All the while defending murderers in uniform, asking ridiculous questions that try to justify the death of another black man at the hands of an officer. I have seen hundreds of videos from the protests and 90% of the time it is the POLICE acting violent, aggressive, and THUGGISH. I have seen dozens of videos of masked white men walking around aimlessly smashing windows and trying to start fires. I am tired of the blame somehow ALWAYS coming back to the black community saying they are “re-inforcing” their own stigma. I UNDERSTAND the anger people feel when they see small businesses destroyed, and I AGREE that should not be happening. But a riot is a riot, looting is looting, they are both VALID forms of protests and it is hard to put REGULATIONS on them. Most of the looting videos I’ve seen are of big corporations and multi-millionaire businesses, I have absolutely no problem with those. Most small businesses have started donation campaigns and have received an outpour of support and love from both their own communities and people from around the country and worldwide. Everybody is watching what’s going on right now. It is UNFORTUNATE that they will have to rebuild their businesses, and I wish there were ways that it could have been avoided but we both know there are no “guidelines” for riots and looting once sh** hits the fan. I am not encouraging or condoning the destruction of small businesses but I will NOT encourage or condone people who sit on their high horse and try to discount the entire demonstration. Like King said urban rioting and looting is a RECOGNIZED form of protest— it is intended to SHOCK you and EXPOSE your capitalist mindset. So if you feel angry right now do not direct your anger and blame at the rioters and looters, direct it at the system that caused them. That system is working hard right now to distract you, trying to incite more and more anger in the streets until suddenly you forget what we’re fighting for. Don’t be a pawn in their game. Don’t forget who the real villains are no matter WHAT is happening in the streets. Do not allow this to all be for NOTHING. Use your voice to go against the REAL underlying injustice that has been brewing for DECADES.

Link to those videos of white men starting fires and knocking out windows, please.

 

[agapelove]

Link to those videos of white men starting fires and knocking out windows, please.

There are entire threads trending on Twitter right now about this.

Jordyn Brown on Twitter

Selena Adera on Twitter

BlackAzizaNANsi on Twitter

Dylan on Twitter

Ian Miles Cheong on Twitter

Asia on Twitter

molly on Twitter

Angela Nissel on Twitter

By-Tor on Twitter

chels❁ on Twitter

 

[Bobber]

That isn't to say that we don't recognize the injustice in a man dying on the street ... by a knee in the neck for 8-9 minutes. This, and similar injustices need to be addressed.

It was for sure horrible and yes every case should be addressed.

I think it should all be acknowledged though that if we're looking for an absolute Utopia before we can be encouraged it should be noted that will never happen. Here's why. In the United States it is said there are 800,000 law enforcement officers. Getting a picture of that, that would be like 8 NFL stadiums full of police. Surely it would have to be understood out of 800,000 there would always be no good cops who end up doing stupid things.

Our shared realistic hope should always be that by far the majority of cops are reasonable just and fair in how they carry out their duty. Police always need to have a full time program of demonstrating they're reaching out in sincerity to partner with the citizens. By doing so when one among their midst is found to have gone off the rails and let's face it an odd one always will. even the public by in large will conclude that no they won't jump into stereo typing all cops as bad for they'll know by their deeds they've worked hard to create a reputation of respect.

 

[A_Thinker]

It was for sure horrible and yes every case should be addressed.

I think it should all be acknowledged though that if we're looking for an absolute Utopia before we can be encouraged it should be noted that will never happen. Here's why. In the United States it is said there are 800,000 law enforcement officers. Getting a picture of that, that would be like 8 NFL stadiums full of police. Surely it would have to be understood out of 800,000 there would always be no good cops who end up doing stupid things.

Our shared realistic hope should always be that by far the majority of cops are reasonable just and fair in how they carry out their duty. Police always need to have a full time program of demonstrating they're reaching out in sincerity to partner with the citizens. By doing so when one among their midst is found to have gone off the rails and let's face it an odd one always will. even the public by in large will conclude that no they won't jump into stereo typing all cops as bad for they'll know by their deeds they've worked hard to create a reputation of respect.

Noone believes that all cops are bad. Only some.

The system needs to exact justice from the some ... who threaten, by their actions, to make the whole body look bad.

 

[Favoredclay]

I have disdain for people who clearly do not recognize their own privilege while commenting on communities that they are so far removed from. All the while defending murderers in uniform, asking ridiculous questions that try to justify the death of another black man at the hands of an officer.

Was this directed at me? I apologize if I came across as not being supportive of black communities, I never intended to. I have offered discussion in hopes of having a constructive and learning dialog. I admit I do not know what it's like to live as a black American, but I do realize I am more privileged because of my race. I never said I wasn't. I can't change that, but I can support those who aren't.

It's clear you feel the way you do very strongly and I will most likely never know enough about your life experiences to understand why you feel so strongly. I hope you don't think I am defending those officers in any way. The topic of this thread was the looting and I guess we will just have to disagree on whether it is justified or not. I still say it is not. I think I will just say I wish you well and not comment anymore on the thread.

Thank you
Nithavela, A Thinker, sparagmos, LaBella ....you have all shared some valuable perspective for this old white man. I hope we can all meet in heaven some day

Agapelove, I wish you well, but I just can't see your position on this looting.

 

[Nithavela]

There are entire threads trending on Twitter right now about this.

I don't do twitter, but I'll check it out.

 

[Nithavela]

Nithavela, A Thinker, saparagmos, LaBella ....you have all shared some valuable perspective for this old white man. I hope we can all meet in heaven some day

I'll bring the marshmallows.

 

[Nithavela]

There are entire threads trending on Twitter right now about this.

Jordyn Brown on Twitter

Selena Adera on Twitter

BlackAzizaNANsi on Twitter

Dylan on Twitter

Ian Miles Cheong on Twitter

Asia on Twitter

molly on Twitter

Angela Nissel on Twitter

By-Tor on Twitter

Jup, all around, not very good looks. You got the usual suspects, people who take the opportunity to cause havoc, maybe some agent provocateurs. Who can say? You'd think that the police wouldn't want to escalate any further right now.

Doesn't excuse people carting out TVs, though.

 

[Chesterton]

...maybe some agent provocateurs.

lol, that's a good one.

 

[agapelove]

Was this directed at me? I apologize if I came across as not being supportive of black communities, I never intended to. I have offered discussion in hopes of having a constructive and learning dialog. I admit I do not know what it's like to live as a black American, but I do realize I am more privileged because of my race. I never said I wasn't. I can't change that, but I can support those who aren't.

It's clear you feel the way you do very strongly and I will most likely never know enough about your life experiences to understand why you feel so strongly. I hope you don't think I am defending those officers in any way. The topic of this thread was the looting and I guess we will just have to disagree on whether it is justified or not. I still say it is not. I think I will just say I wish you well and not comment anymore on the thread.

Thank you
Nithavela, A Thinker, sparagmos, LaBella ....you have all shared some valuable perspective for this old white man. I hope we can all meet in heaven some day

Agapelove, I wish you well, but I just can't see your position on this looting.

I apologize if you feel personally attacked because those statement were not directed at you, unless the shoe fits. I recognize that as a white male in America it will be difficult for you to sympathize with black communities when they react in certain ways. Obviously nobody wants to see it go down this way but I have accepted that it is no longer reasonable to ask black folks to react peacefully-- especially when met with outside agitators and police retaliation. As I have explained many times in this thread, looting is a demonstration tactic that exposes how Americans care more about property than human lives; it represents how easily oppressors take from the oppressed. Stealing is never justified but think about what has been stolen from black people-- their culture, their land, their rights, their opportunities, their LIVES. A TV can not compare. Like I said, I wish there was a way to protect small businesses during the looting but that is not possible once a riot breaks out. There are many videos of black protesters trying to stop looters, but once there's one or two it turns into mob mentality/human instinct. We should not be so quick to judge and criminalize them because it begins to lessen the criminality of the people who caused this. Fortunately the community will usually rally around local business owners to help them recover. The CEO of Target has made a statement that he stands with the people of Minneapolis, and that all his employees will be receiving full pay and benefits.

I completely understand if it is hard for you to sympathize with all of this because yes, it is hard to watch. But what is harder to watch-- a Target being looted or another black man being killed? Being open-minded is to accept that sometimes, difficult things are done for a reason. Just like how there are many here trying to convince themselves that Derek Chauvin had a reason to kill George Floyd.

It is hard for me to watch the looting, too. But I am trying to be compassionate. If they cannot have justice they can at least have a new TV, because that's how America works isn't it? We numb our pain with material things. I hope you can see at least a little of where I'm coming from and where they are coming from. Again, I apologize if I have come off as condescending or patronizing. I wish you well too.

 

[Radagast]

Like King said urban rioting and looting is a RECOGNIZED form of protest

And sending in the National Guard with live rounds is a RECOGNIZED form of response.

Let's not go down that road, PLEASE.

it is intended to SHOCK you and EXPOSE your capitalist mindset.

Is THAT what the riots are about?

 

[Radagast]

There is videocam footage of the events leading up to George Floyd's arrest.At the very end of the video, the door to the squad car across the street opens up, although it is difficult to see whether the officers are trying to load Floyd in the vehicle.

And how did Floyd wind up on the ground? It is with respect to that that I said "there is bodycam footage from the cops who arrested him. A description of that bodycam footage can be found in the charges against Derek Chauvin."

 

[agapelove]

And sending in the National Guard with live rounds is a RECOGNIZED form of response.

BY WHO?