Looters ransack Target store

[agapelove]

That is certainly extremely important evidence. I would like to see the video footage mentioned there.

The video footage is literally in the link.

I'm pretty sure that the wording in the Minnesota Statutes excludes actions that the police are authorised to perform.

If they're authorised to perform dangerous and controversial techniques, the blame lies with the police department.

A prosecuting attorney would certainly make exactly that case. A defence attorney would probably argue (1) that the arresting officer was being careful to keep most of his body weight on the other knee, and (2) that he hadn't been adequately trained on the risk factors for positional asphyxia.

On the evidence I've seen to date, I'd be very surprised if a jury convicted. Based on his actions, I think the County Attorney agrees with me.

Of course, it's virtually certain that all kinds of new evidence is going to make it's way into the public arena. I will make up my mind when I've seen more evidence.

It sounds like you have not seen any evidence, so please don't jump to conclusions. Freeman's office has successfully convicted officers before and I am fully confident that he will do this case justice. Mayor Jacob Frey has already called for the officer to be criminally charged. If somebody is not convicted for this, a lot more Targets will be burning down.

 

[Radagast]

I don’t have the data, but I would be curious to see how these areas fare a few years down the road. Do businesses rebuild or go elsewhere? I suspect the answer is a bit of both.

We know the answer to that. City areas hit hard by riots way back in the 60s are still under-supplied by businesses to this very day.

Those areas become a little too risky for the average business owner. Where insurance companies can be persuaded to carry the risk, premiums go up.

Some businesses do still go in, in spite of the risk, but they tend to be different kinds of business. Fewer mom-and-pop businesses, for example, and more large chains.

 

[Radagast]

The video footage is literally in the link.

Not for me, it wasn't. And when I looked online, I could only find a tiny segment of surveillance footage that's cut off long before George Floyd winds up on the ground, and gives no clues as to how he got there.

There is a police bodycam video, but it's so heavily redacted as to be almost useless. It does, however, reveal that it was a larger incident than I'd realised, with many police, and multiple arrests.

If somebody is not convicted for this, a lot more Targets will be burning down.

I'm sure that's true.

But we don't (or shouldn't) convict people just because hundreds of arsonists are angry; we convict people because we can prove that they broke the law.

 

[bèlla]

We know the answer to that. City areas hit hard by riots way back in the 60s are still under-supplied by businesses to this very day.

I thought I’d read the same but didn’t recall the source. I don’t believe this encourages investment in areas with significant needs unmet. It feeds stereotypes.

Those areas become a little too risky for the average business owner. Where insurance companies can be persuaded to carry the risk, premiums go up.

It’s becoming increasingly acceptable to respond in anger and violence when things don’t go your way. That leads to greater stratification to contain the rabblerousers. We can’t disagree peaceably. That’s the problem.

~Bella

 

[agapelove]

I'm sure that's true.

But we don't (or shouldn't) convict people just because hundreds of arsonists are angry; we convict people because we can prove that they broke the law.

Tell that to the large population of African Americans who have been wrongfully convicted and are sitting in cells right now.

 

[Radagast]

I thought I’d read the same but didn’t recall the source. I don’t believe this encourages investment in areas with significant needs unmet. It feeds stereotypes.

It has other consequences too.

As I said, the result is not just fewer businesses, but different kinds of business. One result frequently noted is that there will still be stores selling food, but the kind of chain stores that go into risky areas are often the ones selling less healthy kinds of food.

We can’t disagree peaceably. That’s the problem.

True. We also struggle to diagnose the problem. The calls for vengeance on these police officers (which will almost certainly go nowhere in the end) will probably get in the way of any serious examination of police procedures and training (which almost certainly need to be improved).

 

[agapelove]

There is a police bodycam video, but it's so heavily redacted as to be almost useless. It does, however, reveal that it was a larger incident than I'd realised, with many police, and multiple arrests.

That "video" reveals NOTHING! If anything it is that the police have something to HIDE.

 

[Radagast]

That "video" reveals NOTHING!

Exactly what I said.

If anything it is that the police have something to HIDE.

Well, the bodycam footage is actually from a different police department (Minneapolis Park Police, not Minneapolis Police Department). They were present at the scene, but weren't involved in the death of George Floyd.

What makes the footage useless is that it hides the identities of both bystanders and people apprehended.

 

[agapelove]

Exactly what I said.

That is not what you said. You made multiple assumptions from that ridiculous piece of "evidence" including the idea that multiple people were arrested which shows me you DIDN'T EVEN WATCH THE VIDEO. At 2:08 the officer clearly says "After all this is settled you guys are good to walk."

 

[Radagast]

That is not what you said.

I said "it's so heavily redacted as to be almost useless." That's pretty much what you said.

You made multiple assumptions from that ridiculous piece of "evidence" including the idea that multiple people were arrested

I made no "assumptions," but I should have said "apprehend" rather than "arrest."

You are correct when you say that at least two apprehended individuals were told "after all this is settled you guys are good to walk" or words to that effect.

 

[Nithavela]

I don't know what this says about my moral stance, but I would be far more inclined to sympathise with the outrage of those peoples if they destroyed the TVs instead of carting them out.

 

[LostMarbels]

Not for me, it wasn't. And when I looked online, I could only find a tiny segment of surveillance footage that's cut off long before George Floyd winds up on the ground, and gives no clues as to how he got there.

Absolutely... without a doubt... they murdered this man. I know where the footage of him on the ground is but I cannot link it here. There is absolutely nothing any human being could have done before being in custody to deserve what I saw.

This needs to be a capital offense.

Man no doubt... I might have ended up in jail. It is that bad. Every fiber of my being wants to knock that cop off of him.

 

[MehGuy]

Absolutely... without a doubt... they murdered this man. I know where the footage of him on the ground is but I cannot link it here. There is absolutely nothing any human being could have done before being in custody to deserve what I saw.

This needs to be a capital offense.

Man no doubt... I might have ended up in jail. It is that bad. Every fiber of my being wants to knock that cop off of him.

Yeah.. it's pretty hard to see how this isn't murder. Only thing I can think of (and far fetched) is that these cops were incredibly careless and naïve about what was going on, but even then.. some punishment is needed.

 

[Radagast]

Absolutely... without a doubt... they murdered this man.

That's a matter for debate.

There are all kinds of possible lesser charges, though.

I know where the footage of him on the ground is but I cannot link it here.

I have seen it. They were restraining a suspect (using a technique which seems to be very controversial but allowed in Minnesota). The questions to ask are:

• did they have a valid reason to restrain him? (that seems unclear at this stage)
• did they restrain him in a competent way? (that seems to be an obvious "no," and has resulted in them being fired)
• was there an element of malice or intent to kill that would justify calling it murder? (having looked up the relevant Minnesota statutes, I would be very surprised if somebody could prove this)

 

[LostMarbels]

Yeah.. it's pretty hard to see how this isn't murder. Only thing I can think of (and far fetched) is that these cops were incredibly careless and naïve about what was going on, but even then.. some punishment is needed.

This isn't carless. Dude is death rattling before he goes unconscious.

 

[High Fidelity]

To spare my fingers, I'll just paste what I posted in another thread.

Unfortunately for the protesters they're diminishing their argument and reinforcing stereotypes that catalyse incidents like this.

Their problem was with the police, yet they've now burnt down a housing project for low-income tenants, looted local businesses and destroyed/damage their property and caused millions in further property damages.

Are there still those with stereotypes of blacks being criminals? Of course, even if it's unconscious bias. So by using this as an excuse to go and rob businesses isn't helping their cause, it's damaging it, and it's reinforcing the opinion of those, unconsciously or otherwise, holding the beliefs that cause incidents like this to happen.

 

[MehGuy]

Have to say living so close to Minneapolis and as someone who drove past that street for several months last year.. been real tempted to drive down there. Of course I wouldn't participate in the looting and whatnot.. but it would be interesting to see this firsthand. Have some Minneapolis friends who were probably there and could probably tag along with. Although I worry about getting arrested and the health hazards of older buildings burning down.

 

[Radagast]

Never mind.

 

[LostMarbels]

If some medical expert has said so, can you please link?

Out of complete disdain and utter disgust... I do not give a hoot what your point is. Have a nice night.

 

[Radagast]

Of course I wouldn't participate in the looting and whatnot.. but it would be interesting to see this firsthand.

On the one side, rioters throwing rocks and burning down buildings. On the other side, armed police and the National Guard.

Why wouldn't you want to get right in the middle of all that? </sarcasm>