THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

[ClementofA]

You seem to be translating this:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28, NKJV)

into this:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to give you eternal life through destruction in hell.

or something along those lines? It doesn’t seem clear.

I should sleep though, good night to you and peace, mercy, and blessings to you as well.

Here's one universalist interpretation of Matthew 10:28:

So tradgic, Jesus says don't fear him who can destroy the body, fear him that can destroy body and soul in he'll.

God "can" destroy. That doesn't mean He will. Nor does "destroy" mean endless annihilation.

In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.

Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.

How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28

You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.

By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.

If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).

What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:

1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

Definition of DESTROY

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[mmksparbud]

So in your theology all the babies God drowned in the flood are unsaved forever?

Don't be silly---God knows babies have done no wrong. Even those He ordered the Israelites to kill will be resurrected with the righteous. You have to have the mental capacity to willingly turn from God. Just as you as to have the mental capacity to decide for Him for baptism.

And posts on at least one internet forum, evidently.

And the version you posted is a travesty. Also reading isn't doing serious study. You need more than a Bible version, even a good one, for that. A lot more.

For heavens sake! Are you of the opinion that none but you should be able to be on the internet??!! And are you naive enough to not understand , that having access to the internet gives you access to every translation of the bible there is, not to mention Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic and Swahili if you want!!
Let's not be obtuse---I am 69 years old, I am in a wheel chair for over 13 years, in Hospice at home, and I spend my entire days anymore with my God and all the bibles and bible helps the internet provides! I study His word constantly now. I did study before I ended up in the wheel chair, but before that I did work and often had 100 hour work weeks (not an exaggeration)and did not have the opportunity to do so. I had even more time after my husband died over 3 years ago. I studied it even as a chiod so please don't think y0ou are so much more studious than I, or anyone else. Any Christian with a brain has had to do some studying. It's true that most only follow what they want and spend very little time with the word of God---those on the internet are not amongst those. I have debated with just about every religion---on and off the internet!! Most are very knowledgeable---we just have different perspectives. Now, due to my health, can not spend as much time at the computer for my hands have been affected and even with spellcheck, and proof reading everything several times before posting and still there will be mistakes.

Not everyone - e.g. religious hypocrites - without God's love in their hearts - will be saved from the lake of fire & suffering there justly for their own good for as long as Love Omnipotent wills it & they continue to rebel. That's a God worthy of respect, the Scriptural Lord of all. Unlike the false caricature that has him torturing forever or sadisticly torturing before doing the endless Hitler job on them.

So according to you He does torture them for a while to get them to accept His rule---but you refuse to call that torture or force!! Seriously? As long as it's "for their own good" it's OK to use force? God does what He says He will do. It is up to Him how He will deal with the wicked and He has stated what that is in the bible. His justice and ours are not the same, He has the ability to see what will be and He deals with the wicked as He does to protect the righteous from any further affliction from sin---it will not arise a 2nd time. That is the purpose of the lake of fire, not repentance by force for those who do not want Him---but the eradication of all sin. If that makes you think that God is sadistic and cruel then you do not have a subservient will to His authority. He has the right to do as He will with unrepentant sinners. I trust Him to do the right thing, for He can do nothing else. He knows the heart and needs no lake of fire to reveal it to Him. He knows what they would do if given another chance---they prove their unrepentance when they attack the city---what further prove do you require that they are unrepentant? God rightfully protects His realm and His people from them---if you are on their side---then you will meet the same end.

You are the one who keeps coming back. You present arguments that are easily refuted and then you get upset at our responses, saying they are unneeded and that you don't care. You are the who asked for them, ma'am!

You've said goodbye about 5 times now. Go bake your bread.

I answer mostly posts that are addressed to me or that are different from the ussual stuff that has been said 100 times over and over! I am not upset about responses---I don't get upset about such stuff---inpatient at times--yes. My bread has been baked. If you have a problem with my posts---simple, do what I do---don't read them!

 

[ClementofA]

Don't be silly---Gold knows babies have done no wrong. Even those He ordered the Israelites to kill will be resurrected with the righteous.

You said there were only 8 saved in reference to Noah's time. Now you're saying all the babies who died in the flood were also saved. Any others? Children, teens, mentally challenged, those who never heard the gospel?

So there was salvation not only by faith & getting in the ark. There was also salvation without faith by drowning. Are there any other methods of salvation you'ld like to share?

You have to have the mental capacity to willingly turn from God. Just as you as to have the mental capacity to decide for Him for baptism.

So if a parent wanted to assure their child of heaven, rather than risking the child grow to "willingly turn from God" & being sadisticly tortured pointlessly in the LOF before Love Omnipotent does the endless Hitler job on them, the parent need only follow the method of the Saviour of all in the flood with babies, eh?

So according to you He does torture them for a while to get them to accept His rule---but you refuse to call that torture or force!!

Not at all. I admit God loosed Satan on Job & all he had to torture him. God also arranged it so that women are tortured in child birth. He allows countless degrees & types of torture to occur every day. Tortures that He could very easily stop if He wanted to. Those in the lake of fire He will have cast in there & they will be tortured for as long as He wills. All these things happen & are working for the purpose of good and the salvation of all.

Seriously? As long as it's "for their own good" it's OK to use force?

As in not letting a very young person walk into traffic? Of course.

 

[FineLinen]

Where were we?

To the present we are presented with the following ....

1. God is the Creator of all men.

2. God is the Father of all men.

3. God is the Owner of all men.

4. All mankind is committed to Christ's care.

5. God gave all beings to Christ to save them.

6. Jesus Christ will save all given to Him.

7. It is the will of God ALL mankind will be saved.

8. We pray for the salvation of all men.

Jesus came to do the will of God.

“My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.” (John 4:34)

“Lo, I come to do they will, O God.” (Heb. 10:9)

The will of God is, that all men be saved. This is his will, by way of distinction and preeminence.

Jesus came to do this will. He came as the Savior, as the Savior of all men.

He came as the good Shepherd, to seek and save that which was lost.

He came to save all men, not only those who lived on the earth while he was here, but all who lived before, and all who have since lived, and all who shall live.

Jesus gave himself a ransom for all; he tasted death for every man; and unto him, at last, every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess him Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Such is the way in which Jesus does the will of God. -Thomas Whittemore-

Dear Bro. Whittemore: I know you have more to present. You have been very patient with the mild diversion.

We have still more Scriptures to consider from the New Covenant & Old, which hopefully we can get back to (lol).

Welcome back.

God inspires the hearts of the good to pray for the salvation of all men, and say, as Jesus said, “Thy will be done.” (Matt. 6:10).

Adam Clarke says, “Because he wills the salvation of all men, therefore he wills that all men should be prayed for; as in (1 Tim. 2:1).

“I exhort, therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men.” Would God inspire the hearts of his saints to pray for the salvation of all mankind, if he knew they would not all be saved? -Thomas Whittemore-

Jesus came to do the will of God.

“My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.” (John 4:34)

“Lo, I come to do they will, O God.” (Heb. 10:9)

The will of God is, that all men be saved.

This is his will, by way of distinction and preeminence. Jesus came to do this will.

He came as the Savior, as the Savior of all men. He came as the good Shepherd, to seek and save that which was lost.

He came to save all men, not only those who lived on the earth while he was here, but all who lived before, and all who have since lived, and all who shall live.

Jesus gave himself a ransom for all; he tasted death for every man; and unto him, at last, every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess him Lord, to the glory of God the Father. -Thomas Whittemore-

Such is the way in which Jesus does the will of God.

 

[mmksparbud]

You said there were only 8 saved in reference to Noah's time. Now you're saying all the babies who died in the flood were also saved. Any others? Children, teens, mentally challenged, those who never heard the gospel?

So there was salvation not only by faith & getting in the ark. There was also salvation without faith by drowning. Are there any other methods of salvation you'ld like to share?

I said they will be resurrected with the righteous!! I did not say there were saved from the flood!!
I clearly stated you have to have the mental capacity to refuse or accept God. God knows the heart---quite trying to be clever---it's not working. I made it clear the mentaly handicapped will all rise at the 1st resurrection! There is no other way to salvation but through the accepting of Jesus atonement for us and living His life. Those without that ability are considered as righteous--at the resurrection.

So if a parent wanted to assure their child of heaven, rather than risking the child grow to "willingly turn from God" & being sadisticly tortured pointlessly in the LOF before Love Omnipotent does the endless Hitler job on them, the parent need only follow the method of the Saviour of all in the flood with babies, eh?

What on earth are you babbling about?? No one can assure their child's salvation!! Sorry, no matter how many times I read that---it makes no sense at all!!

Not at all. I admit God loosed Satan on Job & all he had to torture him. God also arranged it so that women are tortured in child birth. He allows countless degrees & types of torture to occur every day. Tortures that He could very easily stop if He wanted to. Those in the lake of fire He will have cast in there & they will be tortured for as long as He wills. All these things happen & are working for the purpose of good and the salvation of all.

Right---you just can not provide one single verse that says anyone comes out of the lake of fire to live with God for eternity.

As in not letting a very young person walk into traffic? Of course.

Again---you have to save the child BEFORE it gets hit by a car---you can't save them from being hit after they die!!

 

[ClementofA]

I said they will be resurrected with the righteous!!

So the babies who died in the flood will be resurrected with the righteous. But the righteous will be resurrected immortal & saved forever. So will not the babies also? Provide scripture to support your case if you think otherwise.

Those without that ability are considered as righteous--at the resurrection.

So babies who died in the flood are saved forever?

Right---you just can not provide one single verse that says anyone comes out of the lake of fire to live with God for eternity.

I can as follows, but you can't provide one that they won't.

LOL!! I see there is still not one single incidence of any passage in God's word that describes anyone coming out of the lake of fire.

As for your LOL, i don't consider the unscriptural dogma of doing an endless Hitler job on beings created by Love Omnipotent to be a light or laughing matter, but one of utmost seriousness.

And concerning anyone coming out of lake of fire, the second death. The Saviour of all says death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26). God will be "all in all" (v.28) even all those who were in Adam of the context (v.22). That alone debunks your endless punishment theory & affirms Scriptural universalism.

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

For further evidence, in the book of Revelation, the gates into New Jerusalem will be always open & leaves for the healing of the nations. The immortals in the NJ need no healing. That's for those in the lake of fire.

Furthermore there is mountains of additional evidence for universalism:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

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[mmksparbud]

So the babies who died in the flood will be resurrected with the righteous. But the righteous will be resurrected immortal & saved forever. So will not the babies also? Provide scripture to support your case if you think otherwise.

So babies who died in the flood are saved forever?

Yes. Any one that is raised at the first resurrection are raised unto life eternal with Jesus.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After the 1000 years is the judgment of the wicked. Then the earth is remade. All the righteous will live with Jesus forever.

As for your LOL, i don't consider the unscriptural dogma of doing an endless Hitler job on beings created by Love Omnipotent to be a light or laughing matter, but one of utmost seriousness.

And concerning anyone coming out of lake of fire, the second death. The Saviour of all says death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26). God will be "all in all" (v.28) even all those who were in Adam of the context (v.22). That alone debunks your endless punishment theory & affirms Scriptural universalism.

Yes, of course it is a serious matter---I do have a rather outlandish sense of humor. I find it funny that for all your long worded posts---still not one scripoture that says anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Jeus. And I have never believed in an endless everlasting burning hell as being scriptural. Too many verses that have to be totally ignored for that. Likewise---too many verses to have to be ignored for universalism.
None of your verses prove your theory. God has us go through our refining fires in this life---not after death. Otherwise there is no need of Jesus to save us for everyone will be saved by the fire not by choosing Him while we are on this earth.
The gates of the city are closed---as it comes down---as protection against the wicked that have all assembled to come to take it by force. That outside the gates are the wicked just means that those will never come in. Nothing wicked, nothing that abhors God will ever come into the city. It does not mean that outside the city still there is sin and death and wickedness. For God will have destroiyed all that in the lake of fire. The New Jerusalem comes down unto a renewed earth--perfect as it was at creation. There will be no sin anywhere, no more death. Why you can not understand that when sin dies, all death dies for sin brings death. All sin--and death--is destroyed in the lake of fire and nothing remians but ashes over which the New Earth is created.


Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,

If there were wicked outside the city---there would still be sin, death, crying, all is destroyed in the lake of fire once and for all.

 

[ClementofA]

Yes. Any one that is raised at the first resurrection are raised unto life eternal with Jesus.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After the 1000 years is the judgment of the wicked. Then the earth is remade. All the righteous will live with Jesus forever.

Then that brings backs my earlier remarks on this topic:

You said there were only 8 saved in reference to Noah's time. Now you're saying all the babies who died in the flood were also saved. Any others? Children, teens, mentally challenged, those who never heard the gospel?

So there was salvation not only by faith & getting in the ark. There was also salvation without faith by drowning. Are there any other methods of salvation you'ld like to share?

But then you responded that the babies who drowned will also have faith. Who is going to - force - this faith & salvation on them w/o giving them a free choice? Yet you keep objecting to the idea of those in the lake of fire being forced to be saved. Evidently your view of Love Omnipotent is that it's okay to force Himself on others sometimes but not at other times. Yet you claimed that love does not force. But now you have the Saviour of all forcing faith on certain people, namely babies, & probably children & the mentally challenged, too, eh? What about those who never heard the gospel?

So you have two methods leading to salvation in this life: (1) faith & (2) death to certain groups of peope. Any others you'ld like to share?

I find it funny that for all your long worded posts---still not one scripoture that says anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Jeus.

Do you also find it funny that for all your long worded posts---still not one scripture that says anyone DOES NOT come out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Jeus.

And why should Love Almighty be required to use your exact words revealing salvation to those in the LOF when He has already done so in many different ways. It's a ridiculous requirement, as if not being able to provide those exact words somehow defeats universalism. Nonsense. And in the above paragraph i turned it around on you, using your own words against your own argument. Lol, eh?

None of your verses prove your theory.

Easy to say. But can you prove it?

God has us go through our refining fires in this life---not after death.

Thus sayeth you. Where is the Scripture that says "God has us go through our refining fires in this life---not after death."

Otherwise there is no need of Jesus to save us for everyone will be saved by the fire not by choosing Him while we are on this earth.

Nonsense. There is a need to be saved now. Torments in the lake of fire await the wicked.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

The gates of the city are closed---as it comes down---as protection against the wicked that have all assembled to come to take it by force.

Scripture? Or opinion?

That outside the gates are the wicked just means that those will never come in.

Outside the gates means outside the gates. Not what you added to the words of God.

Nothing wicked, nothing that abhors God will ever come into the city.

Not till they're washed clean. Just like anyone inside.

It does not mean that outside the city still there is sin and death and wickedness.

When we are told the wicked are outside the New Jerusalem, that does not mean they have recieved an endless Hitler nuking of them into unending oblivion after they were tormented to death in the fiery lake. Rather it means they are still there, alive.

For God will have destroiyed all that in the lake of fire.

I never read that verse in the Bible "For God will have destroiyed all that in the lake of fire." Where is that, in John's nonexistent Revelation Part II?

Why you can not understand that when sin dies, all death dies for sin brings death.

Why you can not understand that when sin dies, all death dies and Love Omnipotent becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28), i.e. universalism happens.

All sin--and death--is destroyed in the lake of fire and nothing remians but ashes over which the New Earth is created.

mmksparbud's chapter 6 verse 66 or John's nonexistent Revelation Part II?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,

If there were wicked outside the city---there would still be sin, death, crying, all is destroyed in the lake of fire once and for all.

Scripture says there - are - wicked outside the city. So you should understand Rev.21:4 to be referring to what occurs within the New Jerusalem only, where God's people shall be, which is what the immediate context is talking about.

Rev.22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

That makes absolutely no sense. Again, what your saying is the second death has no power. What power does it have?

Death in the Scriptures can refer to when a person's body dies, such as when Jesus died & was thereafter put in a tomb. It can also refer to death figuratively, or spiritual death, such as when Jesus says "Let the dead bury the dead". So, probably, the "second death" refers to one or both of those types of death, & the power they have. In any case, since death will be abolished & God become "all in all", as Scripture states in 1 Cor.15:22-28, we have good reason to believe that no one will remain in death forever, whether it's death or second death.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

And again, not everyone is written in the book of "life"

Everyone will eventually have "life":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Yes, after the lake of fire has done it's job there will be no more death.

After people are judged & cast into the lake of fire (LOF) there will be a new heavens & earth (Rev.20, 21). The dwelling place of God's people will be the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:2-3) & therein - there - will be no more death or pain. Yet death will remain & not be abolished in the lake of fire, for torments there will continue "into the ages of the ages" (Rev.14:11; 20:10). At the same time, "into the ages of the ages", the saints will reign (Rev.21:5). Who would they be reigning over if no one exists in the LOF? How could pain be no more everywhere while the wicked are still being tormented in the LOF at the same time the Scriptures say the saints are reigning? How could death be abolished everywhere while the second death still continues? Impossible. Neither could Love Omnipotent be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while any of the wicked are still wicked and in pain being tormented.

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

9 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name. (Rev.14:9-11)

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- into the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10)

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But 1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither is God yet "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) nor is death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished yet.

So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).
God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing?

Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

For further reading, here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/asinadam.html

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

 

[mmksparbud]

You said there were only 8 saved in reference to Noah's time. Now you're saying all the babies who died in the flood were also saved. Any others? Children, teens, mentally challenged, those who never heard the gospel?

What's your problem with babies being resurrected saved?? How many times do I have to state that the mentally challenged are not subject to condemnation???!!!! What is so hard to understand about the fact that God will raise these individuals up at the 1st resurrection?? This is not rocket science, no PHD needed, no college or even high school diploma needed, a child can understand----THE MENTALLY HANDICAPPED ARE NOT CONDEMNED BY GOD!!! Would you prefer this to be stated in another language??
YOU ARE NOT LISTENING, YOU ARE REFUSING TO UNDERSTAND THE SIMPLEST OF STATMENTS AND TURNING THEM INTO GOD KNOWS WHAT, AS I have no idea what you are trying to do except to sound very knowledgeable and educated however---you are not accomplishing any of this but just the opposite!!! I am not even going to read beyond this one totally ridiculous sentence! Perhaps you can get someone older to explain it to you---GOD DOES NOT HOLD THE MENTALLY HANDICAPPED TO CONDEMNATION, THAT INCLUDES BABIES.
What do you want---that they should be held to the same standards as those who are able to think clearly???

 

[agapelove]

What's your problem with babies being resurrected saved?? How many times do I have to state that the mentally challenged are not subject to condemnation???!!!! What is so hard to understand about the fact that God will raise these individuals up at the 1st resurrection?? This is not rocket science, no PHD needed, no college or even high school diploma needed, a child can understand----THE MENTALLY HANDICAPPED ARE NOT CONDEMNED BY GOD!!! Would you prefer this to be stated in another language??
YOU ARE NOT LISTENING, YOU ARE REFUSING TO UNDERSTAND THE SIMPLEST OF STATMENTS AND TURNING THEM INTO GOD KNOWS WHAT, AS I have no idea what you are trying to do except to sound very knowledgeable and educated however---you are not accomplishing any of this but just the opposite!!! I am not even going to read beyond this one totally ridiculous sentence! Perhaps you can get someone older to explain it to you---GOD DOES NOT HOLD THE MENTALLY HANDICAPPED TO CONDEMNATION, THAT INCLUDES BABIES.
What do you want---that they should be held to the same standards as those who are able to think clearly???

Looks like someone needs a break from the forums. We're here for a civil discussion not to be berated by impatient infernalists. The idea that babies and mentally handicapped are the exception to your golden rule of "REPENT BEFORE YOU DIE " pokes some holes in your theology. You wish to believe that so that you can save face and make God a little less horrible. Where is scripture that explicitly says babies and mentally handicapped are the exception?

Might I argue that unbelievers are not too far off from babies and mentally handicapped. Do you know the original definition of HAMARTIA aka SIN?

 

[mmksparbud]

Looks like someone needs a break from the forums. We're here for a civil discussion not to be berated by impatient infernalists. The idea that babies and mentally handicapped are the exception to your golden rule of "REPENT BEFORE YOU DIE " pokes some holes in your theology. You wish to believe that so that you can save face and make God a little less horrible. Where is scripture that explicitly says babies and mentally handicapped are the exception?

Might I argue that unbelievers are not too far off from babies and mentally handicapped. Do you know the original definition of HAMARTIA aka SIN?

Yah--I do need a break from this---I usually can not take it for very long because it is so irritating to have to answer the same question 20 times and they still do not get it. I've heard this : "the destruction of death in the lake of fire does not destroy death." Makes not one single bit of sense and never will. When sin is destroyed---death goes with it for sin is what brings death. Now it's why are babies saved. Why nobody can understand that the mentally handicapped can not make an intelligent choice and therefore are not held to condemnation means that it "pokes a hole" in my golden rule. In the 1st place---it is not my golden rule---it is what the bible says -- Now, it shouldn't be necessary to explain 20 times that they don't have the mental capacity to do that and are therefore innocent before God. I have no need to "save face." I am not the one that thinks God's justice makes Him horrible. I accept His authority to do as He wishes with the wicked for He alone knows the heart and what will be.

All I see are a bunch of people who do not seem to have any faith in Jesus to save them from their sins. Now they do not have to have any faith in Him. Just go on with however you want to live your life for in the end, everyone will be saved---takes a load out of having the faith of Jesus in you. Jesus is not needed at all now---just go through this fire and come out into eternal life---even Satan. He who is the cause of so much ruination and suffering, he along with Hitler and all like him and all child molesters and every evil person ever who have died unrepentant will be saved---never mind that the bible says otherwise! Every scripture you quote is taken to apply to the unsaved instead of to the saved.
Apparently nobody has ever paid any attention to the sanctuary service. In fact, doesn't seem like much attention is given to any other doctrine except everybody is saved---but then, since everyone is saved no matter what they do or don't do, nothing else does matter. Now, there is no longer any need to even study His word for truth, you have the only truth that matters which is---nothing else matters because everyone is saved. It doesn't even bother anybody that others are being led away from Jesus by this. You think you are leading people to God what you are doing is destroying their faith in the blood of Jesus to save them and instead have faith in the fire to be saved. I know you will deny this---never the less, it is exactly what you are doing. And that is very, very sad.

 

[agapelove]

I am not the one that thinks God's justice makes Him horrible. I accept His authority to do as He wishes with the wicked for He alone knows the heart and what will be.

Neither do I think God's justice is horrible. But if you believe that being roasted alive for ETERNITY is "justice" and you are okay with saying that's God's idea... then ma'am I believe that is blasphemy. There is a thread going on in the Ethics forums titled "Why do Christians justify eternal torment?" And the honest answer is: I don't know.

All I see are a bunch of people who do not seem to have any faith in Jesus to save them from their sins. Now they do not have to have any faith in Him. Just go on with however you want to live your life for in the end, everyone will be saved---takes a load out of having the faith of Jesus in you. Jesus is not needed at all now---just go through this fire and come out into eternal life---even Satan.

Are you kidding me? It takes UNSHAKEABLE FAITH to be able to say Jesus will save all. If you entire reason for being a believer is to avoid hellfire then I suggest you take a look at your own faith before attacking mine.

Now, there is no longer any need to even study His word for truth, you have the only truth that matters which is---nothing else matters because everyone is saved. It doesn't even bother anybody that others are being led away from Jesus by this. You think you are leading people to God what you are doing is destroying their faith in the blood of Jesus to save them and instead have faith in the fire to be saved. I know you will deny this---0never the less, it is exactly what you are doing. And that is very, very sad.

You seem to have a lot of assumptions about UR, lady. Please show me a universalist who was "led away from Jesus"? You are making some personal attacks here... claiming to know how I live my life and what kind of faith I have. Be careful! In the same way you judge others, so also YOU will be judged, and in the same measure you use, it will be measured against YOU. If you really want to look at numbers.... the ECT doctrine has led FAR MORE people away from faith by asking people to violate their own sense of justice and goodness.

P.S. You did nada to answer my question about babies, mentally handicapped, believers, and sin. Maybe the reason people always ask you the same question is because you never answer them?

 

[mmksparbud]

Neither do I think God's justice is horrible. But if you believe that being roasted alive for ETERNITY is "justice" and you are okay with saying that's God's idea... then ma'am I believe that is blasphemy. There is a thread going on in the Ethics forums titled "Why do Christians justify eternal torment?" And the honest answer is: I don't know.

Once again I've said many times I DO NOT BELIEVE IN AN EVERLASTING BURNING HELL---I'VE LOST COUNT HOW MANY TIMES I'VE SAID IT!!

Are you kidding me? It takes UNSHAKEABLE FAITH to be able to say Jesus will save all. If you entire reason for being a believer is to avoid hellfire then I suggest you take a look at your own faith before attacking mine.

If you say so! I do not see any faith there but the complete lack of it! I am a believer in Jesus and wish to spend eternity with Him, I have no fear of hell whatsoever! I believe in Jesus and His blood to forgive me of my sins and I live for Him now.

You seem to have a lot of assumptions about UR, lady. Please show me a universalist who was "led away from Jesus"? You are making some personal attacks here... claiming to know how I live my life and what kind of faith I have. Be careful! In the same way you judge others, so also YOU will be judged, and in the same measure you use, it will be measured against YOU.

P.S. You did nada to answer my question about babies, mentally handicapped, believers, and sin. Maybe the reason people always ask you the same question is because you never answer them?

It is you who are making assumptions---like that I believe in and am afraid of an everlasting hell. I did not say anything about you personally---uni's in general and what I see. I am saying, uni's are placing themselves in grave danger by leading people to think they need not worry about having faith in Jesus or even living their lives for Him while on earth as they will all be saved anyways!! It is what you teach, it is no assumption---you are the ones saying all will be saved and all the wicked will just have to go through the fire and be saved--no matter how bad a life they lived. Don't turn that around on me, I'm not making assumptions just stating it as you all said it.
I have answered about babies till I'm blue in the face---this sounds like a personal problem you people have not mine! It is incomprehensible to me why you all can not understand that God does not hold the mentaly handicapped in condemnation. There is something blocking your seeing this truth but the problem is yours---not mine. There is no other way to say it so I have no idea what your problem is with this. You find it offensive that God does not condemn them? Why? Simple---They can not decide either for against Him. They do not have the intelligence to do so. They are innocent---How in the world is a baby going to choose to follow Jesus? It is a ridiculous idea, just as dumb as an everlasting burning hell and that Satan, Hitler and every evil person will be saved by a bath in the lake of fire!!

 

[agapelove]

Once again I've said many times I DO NOT BELIEVE IN AN EVERLASTING BURNING HELL---I'VE LOST COUNT HOW MANY TIMES I'VE SAID IT!!!

Well sooooorrry. I don't know you. Maybe you should put "Annihilationist" in your bio so people know right off the bat.

I am a believer in Jesus and wish to spend eternity with Him, I have no fear of hell whatsoever! I believe in Jesus and His blood to forgive me of my sins and I live for Him now.

Me too, sister!

It is you who are making assumptions---like that I believe in and am afraid of an everlasting hell. I did not say anything about you personally---uni's in general and what I see. I am saying, uni's are placing themselves in grave danger by leading people to think they need not worry about having faith in Jesus or even living their lives for Him while on earth as they will all be saved anyways!! It is what you teach, it is no assumption---you are the ones saying all will be saved and all the wicked will just have to go through the fire and be saved--no matter how bad a life they lived. Don't turn that around on me, I'm not making assumptions just stating it as you all said it.

Oh really? You're not making assumptions? Let me point out all the assumptions you have made during this exchange.

(1) We need not worry about having faith in Jesus, (2) or living our lives for Him while on earth. (3) We have no faith. (4) We are leading people astray. (5) Jesus is not needed now. (6) We can live however we want. (7) The wicked will just "go" through the fire. (8) Nothing matters.

These are all words that have come out of YOUR mouth not ours. This is called a straw man argument. I suggest you take some time to learn about UR before coming in here on your high horse condemning us all. Remember.... Jesus rebuked his disciples for that.

I have answered about babies till I'm blue in the face---this sounds like a personal problem you people have not mine! It is incomprehensible to me why you all can not understand that God does not hold the mentaly handicapped in condemnation. There is something blocking your seeing this truth but the problem is yours---not mine. There is no other way to say it so I have no idea what your problem is with this. You find it offensive that God does not condemn them? Why? Simple---They can not decide either for against Him. They do not have the intelligence to do so. They are innocent---How in the world is a baby going to choose to follow Jesus? It is a ridiculous idea, just as dumb as an everlasting burning hell and that Satan, Hitler and every evil person will be saved by a bath in the lake of fire!!

Ma'am do you even know what my question was? WE are the babies and the mentally handicapped in the eyes of God. That is why we need a SAVIOR. My question was regarding the definition of hamartia and how it relates. Did you do your homework yet?

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• St. Irenaeus of Lyons - Against Heresies 4:28:2 (189 A.D.)

"Thus also The Punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise his advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; Being Not Merely Temporal, But Eternal. For to whomever the Lord shall say, “Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire” [Mt 25:41],
These Will Be Damned Forever!"

.

 

[mmksparbud]

Well sooooorrry. I don't know you. Maybe you should put "Annihilationist" in your bio so people know right off the bat.

Maybe I should---I said it often enough on this thread!

Oh really? You're not making assumptions? Let me point out all the assumptions you have made during this exchange.

(1) We need not worry about having faith in Jesus, (2) or living our lives for Him while on earth. (3) We have no faith. (4) We are leading people astray. (5) Jesus is not needed now. (6) We can live however we want. (7) The wicked will just "go" through the fire. (8) Nothing matters.

These are all words that have come out of YOUR mouth not ours. This is called a straw man argument. I suggest you take some time to learn about UR before coming in here on your high horse condemning us all. Remember.... Jesus rebuked his disciples for that.

Those are not assumptions---it is the natural outcome of your believes!! You believe all will be saved---no matter how evil they were including Satan. No matter how you want to word that, no matter what you want to say it isn't--bottom line---it does not matter what you do, or how you live your life on this earth for you will be saved. This absolutely takes no faith in Jesus to cleanse you of your sins---the fire will do it. Say whatever you will---that is the end result. High horse---you are the ones that view us as being blind to the "true" character of God for He will save everybody and we do not know how magnanimous He truly is. Sounds to me your placing yourselves a lot higher than the rest of us---annihilates and esp. eternal burners. It is you who accuse us of making God a horrible being. And if you are going to post on a debating forum---then you should be prepared to get debated! You can not debate on similarities only on differences! You can't post and expect to not be opposed!

Ma'am do you even know what my question was? WE are the babies and the mentally handicapped in the eyes of God. That is why we need a SAVIOR. My question was regarding the definition of hamartia and how it relates. Did you do your homework yet?

OK---that may have been your question, it was not the original question. It was about babies nothing said about us being babies in the eyes of God. And we are not babies in the eyes of God. He knows the difference between adults and babies!! We may be idiots in comparison to His intelligence---but He knows the mentaly handicapped as such and He knows what babies are and their capabilities, talk about straw man! This is what I was referring to.

You said there were only 8 saved in reference to Noah's time. Now you're saying all the babies who died in the flood were also saved. Any others? Children, teens, mentally challenged, those who never heard the gospel?

Nothing about anything else. If you have a question, then you'll have to ask it again as I do not know what you are talking about.

 

[agapelove]

Those are not assumptions---it is the natural outcome of your believes!!

How would you know what the outcome of our belief is? Are you a universalist?! Pure assumptions. Take it from a Universalist.... I have been a Christian for 24 years and I have never felt closer to God. If you dare assume that is untrue... then you are really making personal attacks.

You believe all will be saved---no matter how evil they were including Satan. No matter how you want to word that, no matter what you want to say it isn't--bottom line---it does not matter what you do, or how you live your life on this earth for you will be saved. This absolutely takes no faith in Jesus to cleanse you of your sins---the fire will do it. Say whatever you will---that is the end result.

You are doing nothing more than shooting arrows at your own straw man. Did it matter how the rich man lived his life? What will it take to save him from Hades?

High horse---you are the ones that view us as being blind to the "true" character of God for He will save everybody and we do not know how magnanimous He truly is. Sounds to me your placing yourselves a lot higher than the rest of us---annihilates and esp. eternal burners. It is you who accuse us of making God a horrible being.

Well.... do you know how magnanimous He truly is? The only one I place higher than all of us is God. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are His ways higher than our ways and His thoughts than our thoughts.

And if you are going to post on a debating forum---then you should be prepared to get debated! You can not debate on similarities only on differences! You can't post and expect to not be opposed!

Ma'am I welcome your debate. It seems like you are the one not holding up your end of the bargain. Have you looked up the definition of hamartia?

 

[mmksparbud]

How would you know what the outcome of our belief is? Are you a universalist?! Pure assumptions. Take it from a Universalist.... I have been a Christian for 24 years and I have never felt closer to God. If you dare assume that is untrue... then you are really making personal attacks.

Criminy! It doesn't take a genius to figure that out! So glad to hear you've been a Christian for 24 years---and? Very happy for you. I've been one for over 35 years--longer than that --I was raised one---left for 25 years then came back. Proves nothing, does it? I also have never felt closer to God than I am now. I never said a thing about your relationship with God. I am stating what I believe uni's theory about everyone being saved no matter what they've done leads to. No I am not one, never will be one. The bible does not support this belief as far as I'm concerned. You are free to believe whatever you want---so am I. This is a debating forum so I am debating against this. See---you can not tell me that believing that even Satan is saved, is going to lead to a greater faith in the power of Jesus to save us from sin for it is the power of the lake of fire that is doing this. Believing a lie never leads to anything good. No one needs to live their life on earth closer to Jesus and His will in our lives. It doesn't matter what you do. You can deny that till the cows come home---Living a life of sin does not matter for everyone will be saved. As to whether you personally is going to live your life according to the will of God---I don't know what you're going to do. I am stating that as a general rule---what you do does not matter. The bath in the lake of fire will take care of everything. Thing is---no one comes out of that lake of fire and no one here has ben able to prove that anyone can change their mind after death.

You are doing nothing more than shooting arrows at your own straw man. Did it matter how the rich man lived his life? What will it take to save him from Hades?

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable not a statement of the state of the dead. If you go back to the stsrt of this encounter you will note that the Pharisees were there. Jesus was taslking for their benefit and He said what this was about
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Mar 4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Jesus did go on to raise a real Lazarus, and the Pharisees still did not believe.

Well.... do you know how magnanimous He truly is? The only one I place higher than all of us is God. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are His ways higher than our ways and His thoughts than our thoughts.

We will not know until we are resurrected and are with Him. We can only see with our eyes noiw--0we will really see Him then and we will throw our crowns at His feet. I've had prove of His goodness to me for years now and spend most of my time thanking Him. I have felt His peace as I lay dying in the hospital and I have no fear of death---been there done that yuou might say. I am looking forward to having that peace again--it was His arms around me. I've had countless prayers answered. I know a little of His love, I will know more.

Ma'am I welcome your debate. It seems like you are the one not holding up your end of the bargain. Have you looked up the definition of hamartia?

I asked you to repeat your question for I have no idea what you are talking about. As I recollect it has something to do with a flaw in a person that brings about their downfall. Ussualy was about Greek tragedies. What has that to do with babies and hell?

 

[FineLinen]

Big Bad Giant Megas Beware ! !

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

 

[FineLinen]

Big Bad Giant Megas Beware ! !

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

The will of God cannot be resisted.

“He does according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What do You do?” (Dan. 4:35).

Who can resist a being of Almighty power? What God wills to take place, must take place.

He wills the salvation of all men because it is right.

A God of purity cannot desire endless sin and rebellion. If he wills the salvation of all men, he wills all the means by which it shall be accomplished; it must therefore take place. -Thomas Whittemore-

God has no other will besides the will to save all men.

“He is of one mind, and who can turn him.” (Job 23:13).