a-lily-of-peace
Well-Known Member
Then please understand that I am not comfortable with a thought where I would judge his fruit rather than Him judging mine.
Swords into plowshares.
Shalom.
Upvote
0
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!
- Thread starter LoveGodsWord
- Start date
- Status
Swords into plowshares.
Shalom.
- Jul 10, 2016
- 5,459
- 2,199
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
For those who take scripture in such a ridiculously extreme literalist manner, it can help to provide as many points destroying their false view of scripture as possible. But i see you have no response to any of it, just this empty bloviation, if you even read it & understood what you read.
Yet all will willingly freely wish and choose to be saved and live with God. So all will be saved.
Three assertions are made, generally, by Christians:
God loves everyone.
God can save anyone.
God's love never ends.
Only two of the above statements can be true at the same time if we assume that there are some who will not be saved (which is to say that we are not universalists). If God loves everyone, and if God can save everyone he loves, and if God does not change his mind about his love, then everyone will be saved.
[/quote]
From 1-3 above it follows that
4. God didn't create anyone capable of ever becoming unsavable
5. God will continue to seek & to save the lost postmortem
6. Love Omnipotent will continue to seek & to save the lost in Hades & the LOF ("hell").
7. God didn't predestine anyone to be lost forever
8. God didn't foreknow anyone would be lost forever
9. God has made it impossible that anyone could reject Him forever
10. God will continue to seek & to save the lost till the last lost one is saved.
Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.
"God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."
------------------------
“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn
“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols
-----------------
"God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."
"Who is stronger? Man with his free will or God who will have all men to be saved?"
According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.
Love will conquer all.
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
Proof for the Teaching of Christian, Biblical Universalism:
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
Upvote
0
- Jul 10, 2016
- 5,459
- 2,199
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God "can" destroy. That doesn't mean He will. Nor does "destroy" mean endless annihilation.
In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.
Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.
How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.
Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:
Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv
Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.
Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28
You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.
By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.
If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).
What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).
Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:
1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:
"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."
As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":
Definition of DESTROY
A common definition of "destroy":
"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "
The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.
The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:
Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv
By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?
A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:
Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.
Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.
Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?
Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Upvote
0
- Jul 10, 2016
- 5,459
- 2,199
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
In my opinion everyone will be saved, for God will be all "in all" (1 Cor.15:28):
1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:
1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.
So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:
1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.
I take that as referring to the yet future 2nd coming of Christ our Lord.
Revelation says the gates into the city will - never - be shut. And there will be leaves for the healing of the nations. At that time the saints in the city will be immortal & have no need of healing. The only ones needing healing are in the lake of fire.
Upvote
0
mmksparbud
Well-Known Member
- Dec 3, 2011
- 17,312
- 6,820
- 74
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Female
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Widowed
- Politics
- US-Others
From 1-3 above it follows that
4. God didn't create anyone capable of ever becoming unsavable
5. God will continue to seek & to save the lost postmortem
6. Love Omnipotent will continue to seek & to save the lost in Hades & the LOF ("hell").
7. God didn't predestine anyone to be lost forever
8. God didn't foreknow anyone would be lost forever
9. God has made it impossible that anyone could reject Him forever
10. God will continue to seek & to save the lost till the last lost one is saved.
Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.
"God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."
------------------------
“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn
“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols
-----------------
"God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."
"Who is stronger? Man with his free will or God who will have all men to be saved?"
According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.
Love will conquer all.
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
Proof for the Teaching of Christian, Biblical Universalism:
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism[/QUOTE]
Well, there are those that ridiculously spiritualize everything that is quite clear. God is stronger than anything---so strong that He refuses to use coercion or force to obtain love, and His love does not involve force. Something you can't seem to comprehend. There most certainly are those who would rather die than to spend eternity with God. And they will have their wish. The problem is yours not God's, not mine---God will not force--period. You choose willingly. His love is so strong that it withstands rejection. Love without the ability to be rejected, that love is not love but domination.
There are 2 gentlemen---both were gone on business for a long time. When the one came home he was sooo happy to see that his wife was still there, waiting for him. "Of course, I'm here, I love you."
The 2nd gentleman also was glad to have his wife home when he got there, also---"Of course, I'm home---I have no choice, I'm chained to the wall!" You probably consider the 2nd one chained his wife to the wall because he loves her---that is not love---it is force, it is domination, it is selfishness. Love entails giving the freedom to be rejected. Many will reject Him. It is His sadness to bear---not yours to remove from Him. If that is what He is willing to accept, it is His right. Who are you to tell Him He has to save even those who do not want to be saved?
Upvote
0
mmksparbud
Well-Known Member
- Dec 3, 2011
- 17,312
- 6,820
- 74
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Female
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Widowed
- Politics
- US-Others
You know what---I'm about ready to put you on ignore!! These answers of yours are no answers, they are disertations and are not needed. Everything you write has to be a wall of text! I take it you never read Readers Digest and are incapable of condensing.
Good night---I have no idea what you wrote and quite frankly---too tired to care.
Upvote
0
- Jul 10, 2016
- 5,459
- 2,199
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
I'd encourage you to read & seriously study scripture, not opinions of men. Jesus calls us to follow Him, not some organization.
As for your comment above, have you never read:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Verse 19 uses the word "many" instead of "all" as in verse 18. Not all men have been "constituted sinners" (v.19), Christ being an obvious exception. Some would also include as exceptions those humans who have been this moment conceived, preborn babies, infants, etc. So, therefore, Paul says "many" in verse 19 rather than "all".
Rom.5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL MEN, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL MEN.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man THE MANY were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man THE MANY will be made righteous.
If Paul didn't wish to parallel both occurrences of "THE MANY" in verse 19, then he would have said "some" or "few" instead of "THE MANY" in the second occurrence. Clearly he was teaching by the parallel of two occurrences of "THE MANY" (v.19) that all those who "were made sinners" will "be made righteous".
Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.
"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."
"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...
108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."
"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."
"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)
The same Bible version you quoted from earlier says you're wrong:
Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)
Micah 7:18b he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. (KJV)
Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls *which* I have made. (KJV)
Upvote
0
mmksparbud
Well-Known Member
- Dec 3, 2011
- 17,312
- 6,820
- 74
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Female
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Widowed
- Politics
- US-Others
LOL! Sorry to burst your bubble---but all I read anymore is my bible. And I will say the same to you---read your bible instead of these offshoots who have no idea of what they say and neither do you. The bible is clear enough and your long and endless blabbering does not in any way enhance a single concept. The bible is a marvel of very clear, concise thought---you should try it more often! You are not following the bible, but men's philosophies.
Upvote
0
- Jul 10, 2016
- 5,459
- 2,199
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
New American Standard Bible
For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
New King James Version
For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
King James Bible
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
The Father of all knows that's obviously not in the best interest of His created beings, so Love Omnipotent wont let anyone miss out on experiencing His endless love, joy & peace.
Assuming what you said is true, which is highly doubtful. Animals, even insects, have very strong instincts to survive.
XYZ said:
Great! So all those who wish to live in Vegas forever, gambling & whoring, He will "grant their wishes" (like a genie) & give them eternal happiness that way. So everyone gets saved! And you are now a universalist!
Who would wish to be annihilated out of existence forever? For Love Omnipotent to do so would be to deny Himself, what He is, namely Love Omnipotent. But the Scriptures say He cannot do that:
2 Tim.2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Everyone will.
"God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."
“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” -
Eternity is a long time. People may hold onto their love of sin for mere decades, but holding onto it for an eon or two, let alone an infinite number of eons, is of a far higher degree of difficulty. Especially when they are up against an Almighty Being whose will is their salvation, Who is a love that burns more powerfully and longer than the sun.
Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.
"God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."
All of us were enemies of God and did not want to be saved. How many times did Saul who became Paul the apostle reject the gospel he heard from Christians he was persecuting and murdering as a serial killer. Jesus said he was kicking against the goads. He was resisting the Holy Spirit & the truth. It took a personal appearance by Jesus to change him. He being the "chief of sinners".
I'm not telling Love Omnipotent He has to save anyone. He wants to! And He's promised that He will. I'm telling you the great news of what He's said. People can open their hearts to Him, pray & prayerfully study to show themselves approved to God, see, believe & rejoice or remain in their fears.
Upvote
0
mmksparbud
Well-Known Member
- Dec 3, 2011
- 17,312
- 6,820
- 74
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Female
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Widowed
- Politics
- US-Others
Umm----we are talking about the lake of fire---there is no gambling and drinking and whoring going on in there!! How in the world you come up with this scenario is beyond me.
Satan has no desire to live subservient to God---that is more than obvious. All those who come under his banner to attack the Holy City are obviously not wanting to be subservient to God. Who doesn't want to live with Him??? All of the above! The question really is not who wouldn't want to live in eternity with God---but who is willing to live SUBSERVIENT to God for all eternity---the list dwindles rapidly. Why you find this so impossible to be is something I can not understand. It's obviously going to happen. Narrow is the way---out of all the world, there were only 8 saved the first time! And what happened?----Nothing! The door remained shut. They had been given the time in which to come into the boat and had refused to do so. Now, after the door was shut by God---no one could get in, "as in the days of Noah." No one got a second chance then, nor will anyone have a 2nd chance after death. We are given this life in which to live for Him. We either live with Him, or we die without Him. No other way is mentioned.
And?? None of this gives you the right to decide for God what to do with those who do not repent before death. It is not our place to tell God what to do. He tells us and has said there is no coming out of the lake of fire. He isn't asking for your permission, He is telling you how it is. It is you who is living in fear for apparently you do not trust God to have your heart in His hand and must come up with this foolish idea of everyone being saved, even Satan so that you do not have to worry about your salvation. I trust in the Lord for He has said, if we love Him we will keep His commandments and we will live for Him---and we have the assurance that we then can live forever with Him. It's called faith---you don't seem to have it---thus---nobody has to have it, everyone will be saved!! Nope.
Upvote
0
agapelove
Well-Known Member
- May 1, 2020
- 840
- 754
- 29
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Female
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
You know what---I'm about ready to put you on ignore!! These answers of yours are no answers, they are disertations and are not needed. Everything you write has to be a wall of text! I take it you never read Readers Digest and are incapable of condensing.
You are the one who keeps coming back. You present arguments that are easily refuted and then you get upset at our responses, saying they are unneeded and that you don't care. You are the who asked for them, ma'am!
You've said goodbye about 5 times now. Go bake your bread.
Upvote
0
- Jul 10, 2016
- 5,459
- 2,199
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
It's obvious. Maybe reading my post again will help.
So in your theology all the babies God drowned in the flood are unsaved forever?
So all the infants, children, teens etc who die without ever hearing the gospel, like you said, no "other way is mentioned"?
Love Omnipotent has already decided. He's the Saviour of all.
Not everyone - e.g. religious hypocrites - without God's love in their hearts - will be saved from the lake of fire & suffering there justly for their own good for as long as Love Omnipotent wills it & they continue to rebel. That's a God worthy of respect, the Scriptural Lord of all. Unlike the false caricature that has him torturing forever or sadisticly torturing before doing the endless Hitler job on them.
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help
Questions Without Answers
213 Questions Without Answers:
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Jul 10, 2016
- 5,459
- 2,199
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
And posts on at least one internet forum, evidently.
And the version you posted is a travesty. Also reading isn't doing serious study. You need more than a Bible version, even a good one, for that. A lot more.
Upvote
0
a-lily-of-peace
Well-Known Member
It’s not easy to read and I won’t say I understand it, but my impression is that those judged righteous who didn’t die in Christ would also need healing.
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:11-15, NKJV)
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(John 5:28-29, NKJV)
That makes me think of someone like Job, if you’re saying that in the city are the saints who died in Christ, and outside are the nations who need healing, what of Job? Even Noah, who lived through things I can’t even imagine. Even Lot, who seems so post traumatically stressed. Maybe they would be “those who have done good, [coming forth] to the resurrection of life” yet still needing healing.
Again I find security that it’s not my judgement to make but honestly how neat would it be if that would be the mission, if I could be going in and out of the city to minister to the nations? Honestly that’s the mission I’d want even now but I’m so terribly imperfect that I am still fighting war against my self.
To me, the Alpha and the Omega is like this:
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
And who can proclaim as I do?
Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me,
Since I appointed the ancient people.
And the things that are coming and shall come,
Let them show these to them.
Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”
(Isaiah 44:6-8, NKJV)
So I think I’ve come to a point of irrelevance where if we are in this aion and you say heavenly Zion is just for the next aion then why try to look past that when we are still waiting for glimpses of the next?
If it’s an age, or forever, it’s still there.
Upvote
0
Lily: You may not be comfortable with resting your head upon the One who has spoken things thru the mouths of the prophets and priests of His glory, I am!
He can be trusted!
Upvote
0
a-lily-of-peace
Well-Known Member
I trust him enough to say without seeing that I know what he does will be perfect.
I have no need, even for the sake of discussion, to entertain the thought that it could be otherwise.
Upvote
0
Our Steady God
As the image of the invisible God, the radiance of His glory, the exact image of His Person, God's Son continues always, through thick and thin, steady as His Father: "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and into the eons." It's the character of Jesus because it's the character of Him who begat Him. For the Son, steady goes it, out from within His Father into the world, perfectly expressing that character of His Father by which He is unfazed in the face of the changing circumstances of this world, and especially unfazed by the enmity toward Him that characterizes, in the main, the present universal human condition.
That steadiness is the steadiness of love.
The love that God is requires that He be unflinchingly steady whether He is loved or hated, obeyed or disobeyed, confessed or denied. He is never so conflicted that having been offended by us, He must set aside His love until proper punishment is handed out that satisfies His (supposed) need to have His holiness appeased: "Sorry, I've got to hurt you, or hurt Someone standing in for you, or otherwise my righteousness stands in the way of my love for you."
Continued Below
Our Steady God
Upvote
0
"FEAR NOT * * I HAVE THE KEYS OF HELL AND DEATH." (Rev. 1:18)
Powerful words, especially significant when we remember that Christ had just used these keys to open the prison doors, in His Descent into Hades.
How, if so, can death (the second, or any death) sever from Jesus Christ (Who holds the keys) - from His power to save?
AND EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, AND ON THE EARTH, AND UNDER THE EARTH, * * HEARD I SAYING UNTO HIM THAT SITS ON THE THRONE, AND UNTO THE LAMB, BLESSINGS (Rev. 5:13)
These words embrace every created thing - on the earth, and under the earth, and in the sea. All are represented as swelling the chorus of praise to God, and to the Lamb.
Yes, to such an end we trust and hope that all Creation is indeed coming, because we believe God's distinct promise, that all things shall be made new.
How else could all things join in this glorious chorus?
Powerful words, especially significant when we remember that Christ had just used these keys to open the prison doors, in His Descent into Hades.
How, if so, can death (the second, or any death) sever from Jesus Christ (Who holds the keys) - from His power to save?
AND EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, AND ON THE EARTH, AND UNDER THE EARTH, * * HEARD I SAYING UNTO HIM THAT SITS ON THE THRONE, AND UNTO THE LAMB, BLESSINGS (Rev. 5:13)
These words embrace every created thing - on the earth, and under the earth, and in the sea. All are represented as swelling the chorus of praise to God, and to the Lamb.
Yes, to such an end we trust and hope that all Creation is indeed coming, because we believe God's distinct promise, that all things shall be made new.
How else could all things join in this glorious chorus?
Upvote
0
a-lily-of-peace
Well-Known Member
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
(Revelation 1:17-18, NKJV)
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:12-15, NKJV)
And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
(Revelation 21:6-8, NKJV)
(Revelation 1:17-18, NKJV)
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:12-15, NKJV)
And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
(Revelation 21:6-8, NKJV)
Upvote
0
a-lily-of-peace
Well-Known Member
Now here, this doesn’t contradict:
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
(1 Corinthians 4:5-7, NKJV)
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11, NKJV)
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
(1 Corinthians 4:5-7, NKJV)
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11, NKJV)
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
