The Olivet Discourse

[parousia70]

Jesus has NOT returned. That is Full Preterist heresy that belong far outside the pale of Christianity. You have no scripture to support such error.

Orthodox, Partial Preterism Affirms and professes that AD66-70 was a Coming of Christ In Judgment, and was the very coming foretold in Matthew 21:33-45

Such is even spelled out in the CF SOP for this subfourm:
Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
IIII. Eschatological Viewpoints Allowed on CF

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

As stated above, affirming AD 70 was Christ Coming In Judgment is entirely orthodox.
And no, I wont take lectures on what is orthodox and what is heretical from you good sir.

 

[agapelove]

Orthodox, Partial Preterism Affirms and professes that AD66-70 was a Coming of Christ In Judgment, and was the very coming foretold in Matthew 21:33-45

Such is even spelled out int he CF SOP for this subfourm:
Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
IIII. Eschatological Viewpoints Allowed on CF

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

As stated above, affirming AD 70 was Christ Coming In Judgment is entirely orthodox.
And no, I wont take lectures on what is orthodox and what is heretical from you good sir.

I think he is talking about the 2nd coming.

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

There are about 20 different views on partial preterism on this thread alone, furthering my confusion on the topic.

 

[parousia70]

I think he is talking about the 2nd coming.

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

Well, based on my interactions, I do not believe SG makes any distinction between the two, and I believe is on record asserting that anyone who does make such a distinction is a full preterist and therefore a heretic... He is of course alone on his own island with that belief, and it is in direct contradiction with the facts.

There are about 20 different views on partial preterism on this thread alone, furthering my confusion on the topic.

Hardly a problem confined to preterism...try following the myriad of different views on futurism!
Pre trib, Post trib, Mid trib, Dispensational, Mid Acts Dispensational, Pre Mil, Post Mil, Amil, rapture/no rapture... The list of deep, vehement, even toxic disagreement between futurists, goes on, and will likely never be resolved....

Talk about confusion!

 

[keras]

The list of deep, vehement, even toxic disagreement between futurists, goes on, and will likely never be resolved....

But it will be, as what all the Bible prophets say will happen; does happen.
They do tell a story of what God has planned for His Creation, in the past, for now or the near future and for Eternity.
It is all there to read and understand. That people can't understand it and fail to comprehend the logical and commonsense sequence of events, is because they have chosen to believe other ideas and doctrines. God said He would do that, especially to the so called 'wise and learned' people. Matthew 11:25, Isaiah 29:9-12

I would like you, or any preterist to describe how they think this world will be when the Lord Jesus does Return, as is so plainly stated that He will do; physically and gloriously. Acts 1:11, Revelation 19:11-14

 

[agapelove]

Well, based on my interactions, I do not believe SG makes any distinction between the two, and I believe is on record asserting that anyone who does make such a distinction is a full preterist and therefore a heretic... He is of course alone on his own island with that belief, and it is in direct contradiction with the facts.

Hardly a problem confined to preterism...try following the myriad of different views on futurism!
Pre trib, Post trib, Mid trib, Dispensational, Mid Acts Dispensational, Pre Mil, Post Mil, Amil, rapture/no rapture... The list of deep, vehement, even toxic disagreement between futurists, goes on, and will likely never be resolved....

Talk about confusion!

Eschatology is a baffling topic at large which is why I avoided confronting it for so long. I find that scripture is easier to read in light of preterism but I admit I have trouble taking off my futurist lenses after so long.

Apparently there are multiple days of the Lord, anti-christs, and tribulations in preterism. What is your version of preterism? If that is not too big a question to ask.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Well, based on my interactions, I do not believe SG makes any distinction between the two, and I believe is on record asserting that anyone who does make such a distinction is a full preterist and therefore a heretic... He is of course alone on his own island with that belief, and it is in direct contradiction with the facts.



Hardly a problem confined to preterism...try following the myriad of different views on futurism!
Pre trib, Post trib, Mid trib, Dispensational, Mid Acts Dispensational, Pre Mil, Post Mil, Amil, rapture/no rapture... The list of deep, vehement, even toxic disagreement between futurists, goes on, and will likely never be resolved....

Talk about confusion!

Your Preterism is akin to Full Preterism. You have to deny that because to be straight and honest would result in your banishment from this or any orthodox Christian board.

 

[Davy]

Yes really! There are some people such as myself that actually use this forum to examine other points of view. In some cases such as the recent debates on this thread I haven’t studied enough to put forth an argument; however I just added something to a post I thought might be of interest.

If you take a closer look, I never called what happened in John 20 “the second coming”. I think we all know what people are referring to when they use the term “second coming”.

So yes really, I just wanted to add some information, that’s all!

grafted branch said:
"I’m not trying to butt in here but there is a physical ascension and return of Jesus after the cross.

In John 20:17 Jesus tell Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. In John 20:27 Jesus can now be touched because He tells Thomas to thrust his hand into His side. So Jesus must have ascended and came back sometime between these 2 events."

Your idea in red is suggesting that Christ's 2nd coming was fulfilled when Jesus appeared to His disciples after His resurrection. That is man's False Doctrine of Full Preterism. It is heresy.

So like I said, God's Word shows that Christ's 'legitimate' return, will include the gathering of His Church, and the END of this present world with the consuming fire event on the "day of the Lord", burning man's works off this earth (2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 16:15).

That is why that idea you suggested is completely false and heresy.

 

[Davy]

Jesus used the term here:

Matthew 24:33
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

is it your position that this is to be interpreted as:
"when you see all these things, know that it is still thousands of years away"?

Or do you believe Jesus was, in this passage, using the plain meaning of the term "near"?

There's a huge... difference in context with Scripture like Revelation 1:3 "at hand", vs. Matthew 24:33 "near".

In the Rev.1:3 example, it is presenting the events to follow in the WHOLE Book to be involved. That sets the context... of the "at hand" idea.

In Matt.24:33, what do you really think the context of "near" involved? It involved the SIGNS He was giving there in that Matthew 24 Chapter.

Thus it is truly... SILLY, and even IGNORANT... to try and remove those short adverbial clauses and apply a TOTALLY DIFFERENT TIME CONTEXT TO THEM.

(Faithful brethren that keep God's Word, those who push men's doctrines are easy to discover, because their ideas will always defy common sense, and even a show that they haven't really even studied the Scriptures they try to deceive with!)

 

[Davy]

And this addresses my question as to WHY the HS inspired Paul to admonish the 1st century Thessalonian congregation to "watch and be ready" for the day of the Lord... How?

All you need do is READ the 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 Scripture and HEED it as written.

 

[claninja]

What is your version of preterism? If that is not too big a question to ask.

I know this isn't directed at me, and I know Parousia70 will do a great job explaining, but here is my take on partial preterism:

1.) THE LAW: was a shadow of Christ. It was not the reality, but only pointed to Jesus and the true reality under Him in the New covenant.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves.

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.

Galatians 3:24 So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith

2.) THE PROPHETS: were given messages from God in the form of vision/dreams/riddles/parables, and NOT in clear language like with Moses. These visions, dreams, parables, and riddles, of the Old testament often spoke of hope and vengeance.

Numbers 12:6-7 And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

Hosea 12:10 I spoke to the prophets; it was I who multiplied visions, and through the prophets gave parables.

3.) The Law, Psalms and Prophets, in regards to hope, spoke of the Cross and the New covenant under Jesus Christ = The kingdom of God.

Luke 24:44. Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.”

Acts 3:24 Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have proclaimed these days.

4.) The Law, psalms, Prophets, in regards to vengeance, spoke of the destruction of the 1st century of Jerusalem.

Luke 21:20-22 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

The destruction of 1st century Jerusalem fulfills the great tribulation

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

The destruction of 1st century Jerusalem is therefore referred to as "Jesus coming in judgment upon Israel". Jesus states the vineyard owner was to come and destroy the wicked tenants who murdered the servants and son of the vineyard owner.

Matthew 22:40-41 When therefore the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

This type of Judgment was common in the old testament:

a.) God coming down from heaven to judge David's enemies
2 Samuel 22:10 He bowed the heavens and came down;thick darkness was under his feet.

b.) God coming down from heaven to judge Egypt
Isaiah 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt;

c.) God coming down from heaven to judge samaria
Micah 1:3 or behold, the Lord is coming out of his place,and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth.



Thus, the overwhelming majority of OT scripture finds its fulfillment in Christ at His first coming (ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, sending of the Spirit, reign, and spread of the gospel), and secondly in the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem (the great tribulation, days of vengeance, coming of the vineyard owner).

However, under the partial preterist belief system, this does not preclude the fulfilment of a future coming of Christ, a future judgment of the righteous and unrighteous, or a future resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous.

 

[mkgal1]

However, under the partial preterist belief system, this does not preclude the fulfilment of a future coming of Christ, a future judgment of the righteous and unrighteous, or a future resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous

Excellent post, Claninja!

 

[claninja]

Excellent post, Claninja!

(I think you probably meant to write "does NOT preclude....").

Sure did. Thanks for that catch

 

[grafted branch]

grafted branch said:
"I’m not trying to butt in here but there is a physical ascension and return of Jesus after the cross.

In John 20:17 Jesus tell Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. In John 20:27 Jesus can now be touched because He tells Thomas to thrust his hand into His side. So Jesus must have ascended and came back sometime between these 2 events."

Your idea in red is suggesting that Christ's 2nd coming was fulfilled when Jesus appeared to His disciples after His resurrection. That is man's False Doctrine of Full Preterism. It is heresy.

So like I said, God's Word shows that Christ's 'legitimate' return, will include the gathering of His Church, and the END of this present world with the consuming fire event on the "day of the Lord", burning man's works off this earth (2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 16:15).

That is why that idea you suggested is completely false and heresy.

If you see why the statement I made about how Jesus must have ascended and then returned in John 20 is incorrect, you should be willing to show your reasoning behind this. Giving explanations about Christ ascending and returning after John 20 does absolutely nothing to address what I said about John 20.

You have made many accusations and condescending remarks about others on this forum. If you haven’t noticed it’s doubtful that there are any 2 believers that see every single verse in the same way. So I’m going to say this as kindly as possible because you may not be aware of it; it’s difficult to see the fruits of the spirt (Galatians 5:22-23) in your remarks.

My friend I am praying for you.

 

[mkgal1]

I’m not trying to butt in here but there is a physical ascension and return of Jesus after the cross.

In John 20:17 Jesus tell Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. In John 20:27 Jesus can now be touched because He tells Thomas to thrust his hand into His side.

Hi Grafted Branch. You're not butting in. This is supposed to be an open group discussion....so, of course, you're welcome to post.

What you've posted is actually the point I was trying to make. What do we call Jesus' appearance after the Resurrection? ISTM that this is proof the the phrase "second coming" is a complete misnomer and one that does nothing except divide people and cause strife and misunderstandings.

 

[mkgal1]

Spiritual manifestations of Christ to His people as the divine Lord did not/do not negate His glorious climactic physical return in majesty and glory on the last day to raise man, judge man and usher in perfection.

I mentioned His appearance after His resurrection for one example. Are you calling that a "spiritual manifestation"? I thought Jesus went out of His way to prove the tangible physical body He was in at that time?

Or do you consider that His first advent (when He appeared after His resurrection)....His first coming?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I mentioned His appearance after His resurrection for one example. Are you calling that a "spiritual manifestation"? I thought Jesus went out of His way to prove the tangible physical body He was in at that time?

Or do you consider that His first advent (when He appeared after His resurrection)....His first coming?

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[mkgal1]

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

That doesn't answer my question about why you responded by talking about "spiritual manifestations" when I brought up Jesus appearing physically after the Resurrection. I don't even see your response to be any correlation unless you're asserting that His return after the Resurrection is fulfillment of Hebrews 9:28?

 

[sovereigngrace]

There's a huge... difference in context with Scripture like Revelation 1:3 "at hand", vs. Matthew 24:33 "near".

In the Rev.1:3 example, it is presenting the events to follow in the WHOLE Book to be involved. That sets the context... of the "at hand" idea.

In Matt.24:33, what do you really think the context of "near" involved? It involved the SIGNS He was giving there in that Matthew 24 Chapter.

Thus it is truly... SILLY, and even IGNORANT... to try and remove those short adverbial clauses and apply a TOTALLY DIFFERENT TIME CONTEXT TO THEM.

(Faithful brethren that keep God's Word, those who push men's doctrines are easy to discover, because their ideas will always defy common sense, and even a show that they haven't really even studied the Scriptures they try to deceive with!)

You need to watch your tongue. Why would anyone take your theology serious when you are constantly attacking the messengers? Feel free to attack the message.

 

[sovereigngrace]

That doesn't answer my question about why you responded by talking about "spiritual manifestations" when I brought up Jesus appearing physically after the Resurrection. I don't even see your response to be any correlation unless you're asserting that His return after the Resurrection is fulfillment of Hebrews 9:28?

This is talking about our Lord’s physical glorious return at the second coming. This proves that He did not come back in AD70.

 

[mkgal1]

This is talking about his physical glorious return at the second coming. This proves that he did not come back in AD70.

I didn't bring up Hebrew 9:28 and ask for an explanation.

I asked about why you mentioned "spiritual manifestations" when i brought up Jesus' appearance after the Resurrection, when He seemed to go out of His way to prove He was in a physically tangible body ...one that was able to eat and drink (Acts 10:41). That's not a question you can answer with Bible verses, because I'm asking you to explain your own words.